2018-19 U.S. Ladies' figure skating

chopinskate · Oct 18, 2018

narcissa said:
I'm a bit at the way people bristle when skaters are mentioned to be "pushed." It's just refusing to admit one's privilege? And skaters skating for the US have privilege, plain and simple.

Having a strong federation pushing you does not mean you don't deserve your results. It doesn't mean you're the wrong person to be pushed, either. Those things are orthogonal.

But it was clear at 2018 Nationals that the USFSA had intent on pushing Bradie, giving her the highest TES and PCS(!) in the free skate that night and a huge margin win. And yes, I was there, and no, she did not have the best skating skills, performance, interpretation, or transitions that night. But then again, PCS is such a mess with that you could argue that she deserves whatever scores because other people get scored unfairly too.

Not exactly a comment on anyone on this thread, but I sometimes think the "this is fine" meme with the dog in the burning room is best used to describe skating fans.

It's whatever I guess. :hpull:

narcissa · Oct 18, 2018

TontoK said:
The whole conversation seems odd, then.

First, the insinuation that Bradie was somehow improperly promoted in her international competitions, of which, I think she's had three since winning USNats.

Then he inability to back that up with any concrete examples.

The statement that the poster doesn't really know, since he/she rarely watches the ladies events.

And the raised eyebrows at Bradie's win at ACI - which I grant was pleasantly surprising, but not undeserved.

Now, your revelation that the poster was actually at the event...

I didn't say "improperly." I don't fault any federation for looking out for their best interests.
I also said that I think Bradie's win at ACI was deserved.
So I'm a bit confused at this conversation, too.

I guess we'll see at Skate America this year. Last year, clean Bradie got bronze behind clean Satoko and Kaori. Let's see how a (hopefully) clean Bradie places against (hopefully) clean Satoko and Kaori this year :biggrin:

hippomoomin · Oct 18, 2018

Let's face the reality now: Bradie IS the top American lady at this moment.
So far, she is the most consistent one since the beginning of last season;
Underrotations, if she has, are the least severe among active top US skaters.
She has an upward trajectory.

narcissa · Oct 18, 2018

hippomoomin said:
Let's face the reality now: Bradie IS the top American lady at this moment.
So far, she is the most consistent one since the beginning of last season;
Underrotations, if she has, are the least severe among active top US skaters.
She has an upward trajectory.

Oh, for sure. Her upward trajectory could end in a World medal if she seizes it. And it seems she is going for it.

jenaj · Oct 18, 2018

hippomoomin said:
Let's face the reality now: Bradie IS the top American lady at this moment.
So far, she is the most consistent one since the beginning of last season;
Underrotations, if she has, are the least severe among active top US skaters.
She has an upward trajectory.

I don't think anyone disputes that but is it a good thing? I find it hard to be interested in US ladies skating as it stands today. I doubt if Gracie is coming back--or at least coming back at her previous level. Bradie just doesn't do it for me. She can jump--great. But the rest of her skating leaves me cold. She is a reliable top ten finisher at Worlds. Finishing sixth would be a victory for her. And who else is there? Karen Chen is hopelessly inconsistent. Courtney Hicks, too, and she lacks Karen's artistry. Polina Edmunds? I think her day has passed. If US ladies skating was in decline before, it is in free-fall now.

chopinskate · Oct 18, 2018

jenaj said:
I don't think anyone disputes that but is it a good thing? I find it hard to be interested in US ladies skating as it stands today. I doubt if Gracie is coming back--or at least coming back at her previous level. Bradie just doesn't do it for me. She can jump--great. But the rest of her skating leaves me cold. She is a reliable top ten finisher at Worlds. Finishing sixth would be a victory for her. And who else is there? Karen Chen is hopelessly inconsistent. Courtney Hicks, too, and she lacks Karen's artistry. Polina Edmunds? I think her day has passed. If US ladies skating was in decline before, it is in free-fall now.

I agree the US ladies' skating needs a kicker. Karen has a lot of raw talent, but it's just not being harnessed well.

narcissa · Oct 18, 2018

chopinskate said:
I agree the US ladies' skating needs a kicker. Karen has a lot of raw talent, but it's just not being harnessed well.

I love Karen when she's on. I honestly think she could (objectively) be the best skater in the world if she landed her jumps without UR.

chopinskate · Oct 18, 2018

narcissa said:
I love Karen when she's on. I honestly think she could (objectively) be the best skater in the world if she landed her jumps without UR.

Yes. Her range of abilities is remarkable. Her jumps are some of the best in the world when hit. Her layback spin is great, although other positions can be better. Her spirals are gorgeous. Her skating skills aren't too bad, either, although that's one area for improvement (and that takes time). Her attention to detail, and the split second "breath" she gives some of her movement is great, the radiant expression she has shown herself to be capable of (like in her On Golden Pond SP during her spirals). It's all there. She just needs something to happen for her.

kwanatic · Oct 18, 2018

chopinskate said:
Yes. Her range of abilities is remarkable. Her jumps are some of the best in the world when hit, as are her spins. Her spirals are gorgeous. Her skating skills aren't too bad, either, although that's one area for improvement (and that takes time). Her attention to detail, and the split second "breath" she gives some of her movement is great, the radiant expression she has shown herself to be capable of (like in her On Golden Pond SP during her spirals). It's all there. She just needs something to happen for her.

Karen has wonderful skating skills IMO. Best out of the the US women for sure and, at her best, she can pull good scores internationally due in large part to how fast she is. She skates with a ton of speed and that helps the overall impression she leaves on the ice from her basic stroking to her jumps. Her spins are top 5 (or even 3) in the world. She has amazing speed, beautiful positions and strong centering. Karen understands music and character and is a strong performer, plus she's able to project energy and emotion when she skates. I've never seen her live but, at least on TV, she appears to fill the rink.

Girlfriend is an incredible talent. If only the the mental focus were there...

narcissa · Oct 18, 2018

kwanatic said:
Karen has wonderful skating skills IMO. Best out of the the US women for sure and, at her best, she can pull good scores internationally due in large part to how fast she is. She skates with a ton of speed and that helps the overall impression she leaves on the ice from her basic stroking to her jumps. Her spins are top 5 (or even 3) in the world. She has amazing speed, beautiful positions and strong centering. Karen understands music and character and is a strong performer, plus she's able to project energy and emotion when she skates. I've never seen her live but, at least on TV, she appears to fill the rink.

Girlfriend is an incredible talent. If only the the mental focus were there...

She really fills the rink with every breathe. Every note and every pause in between notes. And every time she skates you can tell how much she loves skating. Her issues though...I don't know how much of it is mental and how much of it is just being satisfied with where she is, because she never seems to fight for medals :/

IMO her jumps, the times she lands and rotates them, are the best in the world. At least they are the most aesthetically pleasing to me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NixhPhyYW4w I don't know many ladies' programs in the last few years better than this.

chopinskate · Oct 18, 2018

kwanatic said:
Karen has wonderful skating skills IMO. Best out of the the US women for sure and, at her best, she can pull good scores internationally due in large part to how fast she is. She skates with a ton of speed and that helps the overall impression she leaves on the ice from her basic stroking to her jumps. Her spins are top 5 (or even 3) in the world. She has amazing speed, beautiful positions and strong centering. Karen understands music and character and is a strong performer, plus she's able to project energy and emotion when she skates. I've never seen her live but, at least on TV, she appears to fill the rink.

Girlfriend is an incredible talent. If only the the mental focus were there...

I think her skating skills aren't "wonderful" yet, but they are good. They do come with time. She shows very good speed (again very apparent in her spirals), good variation of speed too at times, but her edging could be better (although she shows nice capability there still), and she looks clunky in her footwork sequences at times. In comparison to the rest of the ladies field, I do think they stand out except in comparison to the Japanese ladies.

Her spins: you quoted me before I corrected myself. I think her layback is great. She can do better in her camels and sits, IMO (I find her donut spin weak, for instance). Her edge control there is good, and her speed is fine (and she doesn't lose too much or any speed at all). Her change of foot sometimes isn't too pleasing.

I do think she needs more refinement too, as sometimes it's a little too clunky overall, as well, but that comes with time, too.

narcissa said:
IMO her jumps, the times she lands and rotates them, are the best in the world. At least they are the most aesthetically pleasing to me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NixhPhyYW4w I don't know many ladies' programs in the last few years better than this.

Very, very few, and none choreographically, IMO. Only Zagitova doing her best with her SP last season comes to mind right now.

bubblecherry · Oct 18, 2018

narcissa said:
I love Karen when she's on. I honestly think she could (objectively) be the best skater in the world if she landed her jumps without UR.

kwanatic said:
Karen has wonderful skating skills IMO. Best out of the the US women for sure and, at her best, she can pull good scores internationally due in large part to how fast she is. She skates with a ton of speed and that helps the overall impression she leaves on the ice from her basic stroking to her jumps. Her spins are top 5 (or even 3) in the world. She has amazing speed, beautiful positions and strong centering. Karen understands music and character and is a strong performer, plus she's able to project energy and emotion when she skates. I've never seen her live but, at least on TV, she appears to fill the rink.

Girlfriend is an incredible talent. If only the the mental focus were there...

narcissa said:
She really fills the rink with every breathe. Every note and every pause in between notes. And every time she skates you can tell how much she loves skating. Her issues though...I don't know how much of it is mental and how much of it is just being satisfied with where she is, because she never seems to fight for medals :/

IMO her jumps, the times she lands and rotates them, are the best in the world. At least they are the most aesthetically pleasing to me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NixhPhyYW4w I don't know many ladies' programs in the last few years better than this.

+1

Her being such an amazing raw talent makes it so much more unfortunate that she can't get it together. It's not that she just has potential to be the top US lady, or that she could put on great performances, she should be one of the top ladies in the world. If she could perform like she did at 2017 Nationals, or even just near that level, she would be a medal contender at every competition, maybe even gold. And it would be well deserved too. It's really frustrating. I can't imagine how frustrating it is for her too because I'm sure she (unsuccessfully) tries to fix the issues she has.

hippomoomin · Oct 18, 2018

For sure, Bradie is not the most exciting skater, but US ladies will be in deeper trouble if Bradie was not in her current form. Fingers crossed she stays healthy physically and mentally, won't have boot issues and won't be depressed by criticisms...

chopinskate · Oct 18, 2018

hippomoomin said:
For sure, Bradie is not the most exciting skater, but US ladies will be in deeper trouble if Bradie was not in her current form. Fingers crossed she stays healthy physically and mentally, won't have boot issues and won't be depressed by criticisms...

I do think she's carrying the US hopes right now, and stays healthy all around no matter what happens with her this season and beyond.

LiamForeman · Oct 18, 2018

Karen is the greatest talent coming out of the US since, well you'd have to go WAY back to find someone comparable. She seemingly has it all, except for whatever it is that holds her back. I hope she can get well and just skate.

drivingmissdaisy · Oct 18, 2018

I don't get the hype with Karen. She's very good, but when I watch how skaters like Satoko or Kaori move across the ice, they seem so much more polished in their movement.

frida80 · Oct 18, 2018

I often wonder what would've happened if Karen never broke her foot in 2013. All her boot issues stemmed from that moment as it didn't heal properly and the bones growth would never fit in boot without causing her pain. Before then she had such a momentum at the junior level. She'd had one of the highest scores and was heading to the JGPF. After that it's like she's been in constant state of recovery.

Ice Dance · Oct 18, 2018

Karen is not hyped. She is a gorgeous performer. (Watch her in exhibition when the pressure is off. It's truly special). She just very rarely nails all her jumps, and her triple triple is borderline at best.

andromache · Oct 18, 2018

drivingmissdaisy said:
I don't get the hype with Karen. She's very good, but when I watch how skaters like Satoko or Kaori move across the ice, they seem so much more polished in their movement.

I think the Karen hype (which I have previously engaged in...but kind of given up on sadly) is all about that raw talent. She's not as polished as Satoko or Kaori, but she has an it factor. More of a natural performance ability than Satoko or Kaori, I think. She's musical and emotes well. But she hasn't polished it, and natural charisma can only get you so far.

Satoko in particular I think has little innate charisma or musicality - but she has done a LOT of work with great choreographers, and every movement she makes and every expression she gives is always perfect.

As far as SS go - outside of her incredible speed, Karen's SS are only impressive when compared to the rest of the US ladies. I think when we saw her senior Nationals debut she had a lot of promise and potential to improve on that foundation, but she never really did.

klutzy · Oct 19, 2018

I was also at US Nationals (the FS) and what I noticed about Bradie was how fast she was, particularly her in-air rotations. Mirai had more height, but Bradie had more speed and she had a far more complex program in terms of choreography than did Mirai. Bradie was extremely clean last season--the one exception was during the solo Olympics--even there it was a stumble/single fall.

Nothing happened at Nationals that was out of line with what had happened earlier in the season--Mirai delivered her triple axel, but offered minimal choreography and interpretation. Bradie did 7 triples, a nice chunk of them in the back end and with a number of difficult entries. She had a tech base and that's what gave her the edge--it was never the PCS.

Karen and Ashley went back and forth with their programs. Neither skated badly at Nationals, but neither was spectacular--their placements really could have gone either way. I do think Karen going over Ashley *was* political--Ashley had taken Mirai's spot the previous Olympics. There was no way she was going to get that kind of bye twice. Karen had snagged that third spot with her performance at Worlds--the same way Ashley had snagged a third spot for years earlier--so this time the spot went to Karen.

Bradie, on the other hand, had no such edge going into the season. She won because she skated a hard program consistently all season--something no other American lady was managing--and did so at Nationals. Her FS was good enough at Worlds to place fourth and, if anything, her overall ranking was lower than it would have otherwise been because of her skating on the early side during the short.

2018-19 U.S. Ladies' figure skating

chopinskate

narcissa

hippomoomin

narcissa

jenaj

chopinskate

narcissa

chopinskate

kwanatic

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narcissa

chopinskate

bubblecherry

hippomoomin

chopinskate

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam

drivingmissdaisy

frida80

Ice Dance

andromache

klutzy

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