SP and FS replaced by Technical and Artistic programs?

Can he do those transitions with quads? Cannot quadsters do those transitions with triples?

But since all those tricks andd performance abilities are so well rewarded, i hope that matteo Rizzo (who can land a quad) will see his scores rise more this season. And that Julian Yee will stop to train a quad and skate only triples SPs. So maybe all his qualities will shine and he will put more transitions in/out jumps, and maybe he will get those big points too.

yume said:

Can he do those transitions with quads? Cannot quadsters do those transitions with triples?

But since all those tricks andd performance abilities are so well rewarded, i hope that matteo Rizzo (who can land a quad) will see his scores rise more this season. And that Julian Yee will stop to train a quad and skate only triples SPs. So maybe all his qualities will shine and he will put more transitions in/out jumps, and maybe he will get those big points too.

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Are you being sarcastic or what? I can’t tell, sincerely.

But I’ll answer sincerely: yes Hanyu can. Which is why he’s impressive, right?

Again nothing is stopping people who want to do multiple quads from putting those transitions in their triples if they like. If Julian Yee wants to do what you suggest. Then great. If he wants to try to get a ratified quad sincerely, that’s his prerogative.

No, I doubt that Jason can do all those transitions with a quad. But can he do a quad without lots of transition while maintaining additional complexity elsewhere, we’ll see, but I wouldn’t be surprise to see that’s what he is aiming for.

Ultimately, it’s a choice. You increase difficulty by the number of rotations or by incorporating multiple planes of movement/pylometics into your entrances or exits. One helps BV the other helps GOE.

Mrs. P said:

Are you being sarcastic or what? I can’t tell, sincerely.

But I’ll answer sincerely: yes Hanyu can. Which is why he’s impressive, right?

Again nothing is stopping people who want to do multiple quads from putting those transitions in their triples if they like.

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Not sacarstic at all. Just saying that if Uno and Jin for example were training only triples SPs, they would probably put transitions too. And Jin probably would pay more attention to "artistry". But not sure they would be rewarded in the same way.

Reddi said:

By my logic skater's content obviously and transparently affects his artistic capability (I dunno why it's such news here). That's it. The rest is your emotions.

I gave a link to Jason's LP from the Worlds to drive the point home. Now you're offering me another video where Jason starts his difficult backloaded program by telegraphing his 4T literally through the whole length of the rink. Then proceeds with his LP which is nowhere near is packed with TRs as "Love is a B". Thanks for Exhibition B, I guess...

And yes I do compare Jason's BV to fellow skaters from top 10 and not to everybody who ever set a foot on the ice.

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But everything you’re saying about Jason is based on *your* emotions that other skaters could do what Jason does if they weren’t training so many quads.

That’s not a fact, that’s a conclusion, based on your emotions.

I don’t know why that would be news either

yume said:

Not sacarstic at all. Just saying that if Uno and Jin for example were training only triples SPs, they would probably put transitions too. And Jin probably would pay more attention to "artistry". But not sure they would be rewarded in the same way.

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Are you saying that Jason is unfairly rewarded for the transitions?

You’re presuming with Boyang that if he did them he could do them to the same level of execution? I don’t know the answer . It’s hard to say whether they would be rewarded the same way when they haven’t opted to go that route.

For what it’s worth, I think Jason would much rather have a quad than not and rather than not have in his SP. in his case he has to find other ways to impress the judges and earn those points.

He’s see both success and struggle with that strategy. Just as those who opt for multiple quads. I’m not sure what the debate is really in that regard.

To go back to the topic at hand, I can see why the ISU in principle thinks this is a good idea, but in reality I think it would be a hot mess cause it doesn’t really solve the underlying issues I think they hope to resolve.

el henry said:

But everything you’re saying about Jason is based on *your* emotions that other skaters could do what Jason does if they weren’t training so many quads.

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You're misquoting me. I've said that Jason's ability to deliver programs like "Love is a B" ultimately comes at a great athletic cost and It falls apart as soon as heavy lifting begins. I've never even started a conversation about other skaters in Jason's SP situations because frankly, there's no point.

Okay, then:

So what would having a separate technical and artistic program solve for a skater like Jason? Force him to do more quads? Penalize him more?

It’s always interesting he’s brought up as a problem when it comes time to define athleticism.

Mrs. P said:

Are you saying that Jason is unfairly rewarded for the transitions?

You’re presuming with Boyang that if he did them he could do them to the same level of execution? I don’t know the answer . It’s hard to say whether they would be rewarded the same way when they haven’t opted to go that route.

For what it’s worth, I think Jason would much rather have a quad than not and rather than not have in his SP. in his case he has to find other ways to impress the judges and earn those points.

He’s see both success and struggle with that strategy. Just as those who opt for multiple quads. I’m not sure what the debate is really.

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Jason is fairly rewarded for what he does.
I'm saying that a skater from a small fed or a fed with less power would not get the points he deserves. So he can't afford to have only triples. That's why Jin learned quads in priority. That's why Rizzo pushed to get a quad. That's why Yee from a smal small small fed is training to get a consistent quad. And it started to work for him last season at SA since he even got higher TES than Chen in SP. But these two skaters didn't receive the points, especially PCS they deserved. That's why they do everything to get the jumps.
And to be back on topic, i don't think the change Lakernik talked about is necessary, because current system serves its purpose. We see it with the way Jason Brown is scored. And i was hoping that some skaters like Rizzo could have the same strategy than him and get scored in the same way.

I think something needs to be done to decrease the disparity that is happening between ladies being dominated by girls while in the other disciplines the skaters can compete successfully well into adulthood. That in itself is unfair. I'm not saying that the technical level should be lowered to allow a 30yo to be competitive but at least it should be a competition for adult atheletes.

If gymnasts can stay competitive for multiple olympic cycles but female skaters can't then there is something wrong with the judging of the sport.

Reddi said:

You're misquoting me. I've said that Jason's ability to deliver programs like "Love is a B" ultimately comes at a great athletic cost and It falls apart as soon as heavy lifting begins. I've never even started a conversation about other skaters in Jason's SP situations because frankly, there's no point.

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I apologize if I misunderstood; we are all just giving opinions here.

I do disagree that Jason’s programs fall apart when “heavy lifting” begins; one of his hallmarks has been the ability to keep the artistry, spins, and steps going even when he falls, and particularly when he falls on quads.

And I also (no surprise) don’t consider quads to be the only or ultimate form of “heavy lifting”, the artistry, spins, steps and other moves are just as much “heavy lifting” to me.

But I never meant for my examples to be a discussion of Jason particularly, so I am going to leave this here....

yume said:

Jason is fairly rewarded for what he does.
I'm saying that a skater from a small fed or a fed with less power would not get the points he deserves. So he can't afford to have only triples. That's why Jin learned quads in priority. That's why Rizzo pushed to get a quad. That's why Yee from a smal small small fed is training to get a consistent quad. And it started to work for him last season at SA since he even got higher TES than Chen in SP. But these two skaters didn't receive the points, especially PCS they deserved. That's why they do everything to get the jumps.
And to be back on topic, i don't think the change Lakernik talked about is necessary, because current system serves its purpose. We see it with the way Jason Brown is scored. And i was hoping that some skaters like Rizzo could have the same strategy than him and get scored in the same way.

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I think that goes back to my ultimate point. I think the issue isn’t with strategies or certain skaters, it comes down to whether judges are properly and consistently judging technical and artistic proficiency by the guidelines they have set forth.

Unfortunately the answer is clearly not. And god knows having a separate technical and artistic program isn’t gonna solve this.

Let's just have two totally different judging panels with one for technical and one for artistic and be done with it. But this is the I.S.U. we're talking about and they hate practical, impartial answers to their "daunting" questions.

Mrs. P said:

I think that goes back to my ultimate point. I think the issue isn’t with strategies or certain skaters, it comes down to whether judges are properly and consistently judging technical and artistic proficiency by the guidelines they have set forth.

Unfortunately the answer is clearly not. And god knows having a separate technical and artistic program isn’t gonna solve this.

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And for the point of debate: It was "is Jason's SP more challenging than SP with quads". And my opinions is no. Because i assume that those who do quads could do what he does if they were training that kind of program. While it would be harder for him to skate an SP with two quads. Because it's harder to learn and land quads than doing a transition before a triple IMHO.

Y

Mrs. P said:

I think that goes back to my ultimate point. I think the issue isn’t with strategies or certain skaters, it comes down to whether judges are properly and consistently judging technical and artistic proficiency by the guidelines they have set forth.

Unfortunately the answer is clearly not. And god knows having a separate technical and artistic program isn’t gonna solve this.

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To get back to the more general, I agree with this. Jumping off, as I said somewhere in the mists of time (first page), I despise the quad PCS boost, it’s not good judging.

And as I said then, one shouldn’t have to be, well, a certain skater, to overcome that. Deniss V. should not have his competition get the quad PCS boost at his expense. Donovan Carrillo (although I think Donovan is starting to get rewarded). Andrew Torgashev’s new programs are gorgeous, IMO. His PCS score should not depend on whether he lands the quad. There are many skaters I care about in this regard.

I’m so frustrated I’m willing to have a different program, but then I lived through the ISU, or whoever they were then, taking away an entire judged part of the comp, and inserting a new one, so it’s not that unusual to me. I’d love to have my frustration relieved by more accurate, IMO, application of PCS:thumbsup:

Mrs. P said:

So what would having a separate technical and artistic program solve for a skater like Jason? Force him to do more quads? Penalize him more?

It’s always interesting he’s brought up as a problem when it comes time to define athleticism.

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A problem? I thought he was brought up as an example, a poster child, for artistic skating?

yume said:

Can he do those transitions with quads? Cannot quadsters do those transitions with triples?

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I honestly think most of the quadsters at the top could do their triples with transitions in and out of them in a similar way and with a similar quality as Jason does, minus some of the moves that require above-average flexibility, but I'm sure they would find other ways to stand out or make them demanding in their own way.
Maybe focus less on holding positions or long held edges and more on quick footwork f.i. which I think is also a valid form of athleticism (and artistry, while we're at it) because I don't believe that Jason's style is the only 'right' way of skating or showcasing mastery of the blade and skating skills, because there's several aspects to that.

Reddi said:

P.S. Oh, by the way. Another thing in Jason's SA performance: several 1.5-second spirals which are so hated here. Guess they're totally fine when certain skaters do them. This detail also fits nicely in a conversation about difficulties in managing to somehow unify different artistic perseptions.

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I actually noticed that too and had the same thought.

yume said:

And for the point of debate: It was "is Jason's SP more challenging than SP with quads". And my opinions is no. Because i assume that those who do quads could do what he does if they were training that kind of program. While it would be harder for him to skate an SP with two quads. Because it's harder to learn and land quads than doing a transition before a triple IMHO.

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I think there is a difference between saying whether something is difficult/hard and whether someone, an individual, would consider the execution of said skill is challenging to an individual skater.

Let’s use a different example: Emmy Ma once said that she had a far easier time learning a 3Z than a 3T. The judging system says a 3Z is harder than using at 3T.

Likewise I’ve heard skaters say it’s easier to do jumps with tanos and rippions then without cause they’re used to it.

So in that reign every skater isn’t gonna have the same execution ability. And difficulty of an element, be it a spin, jump or transition, doesn’t necessarily correspond whether a skater can execute it or not. Or whether a skater considers another skater’s program challenging.

(It would be interesting to ask elite skaters whether they felt a certain skater’s program was challenging. I think the answers would surprise us!)

Mrs. P said:

I think there is a difference between saying whether something is difficult/hard and whether someone, an individual, would consider the execution of said skill is challenging to an individual skater.

Let’s use a different example: Emmy Ma once said that she had a far easier time learning a 3Z than a 3T. The judging system says a 3Z is harder than using at 3T.

Likewise I’ve heard skaters say it’s easier to do jumps with tanos and rippions then without cause they’re used to it.

So in that reign every skater isn’t gonna have the same execution ability. And difficulty of an element, be it a spin, jump or transition, doesn’t necessarily correspond whether a skater can execute it or not. Or whether a skater considers another skater’s program challenging.

(It would be interesting to ask elite skaters whether they felt a certain skater’s program was challenging. I think the answers would surprise us!)

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That's why we usually talk about the average or most of. Emmy Ma is a rare case.

yume said:

That's why we usually talk about the average or most of. Emmy Ma is a rare case.

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I think yeah there’s an average or benchmark with abilities. But I don’t think Emmy’s scenario is a rare case. Look at the number of men who can’t execute a 3F on the right edge, but yet can do a 4T, no problem. Same with Lambiel, who could do beautiful 4T easily but had a hell of a time doing 3As.

Colonel Green said:

What people are asking is what would be graded in an artistic program, versus what would be graded in a technical program? Particularly in the latter case, because I don't think most people would be very interested in watching something that had no performative aspect, so if you are still expected to do artistic stuff in the technical program, does it just not count for your score?

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We don't know yet.

One possibility:

A technical program pretty much exactly like the current well-balanced free skate, with more jump elements than anything else, leveled spins and steps, five program components of which two are more technical and three are more artistic but only PCS as a whole only counts for approximately half the score -- or less under the current scale of values and PCS factors for skaters who are including lots of quads because the factors were set at a time when one easier quad in a SP and three easy quads in a freeskate was cutting edge -- or even less than that if the PCS factors were to be reduced or some or all of the program components removed from the scoring of this program.

An "artistic" program where the total number of jump elements allowed is equal to or lower than the total number of non-jump technical elements allowed, where spins and steps are not leveled but treated more like the current choreo sequence and ice dance choreo spins, and where the PCS factors are weighted significantly higher than in the technical program.

So in the tech program the technical elements would constitute by far the largest part of the score but PCS could still play a part, and in the artistic program the PCS could constitute by far the largest part of the score but the quality of the technical elements could still play a part and possibly the difficulty of the jumps would as well.

It's really far too early to say much of anything about this idea since we don't have the details, but I've yet to see a proposal for this that was all that coherent.

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Yes, there has been no formal proposal advanced, so we have nothing to debate yet whether it is good or bad. We can speculate on what might work better or not so well. But we could be heading down a completely different path than the ISU in our speculations.

el henry said:

So the short program was introduced to decrease the importance of the technical (figures) and increase the importance of artistry.

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More like, the short program was introduced to decrease the importance of the less athletic technical skill of tracing circles on the ice and increase the importance of freeskating -- which constituted skating fast and freely and executing jumps and other athletic technical skills as well as allowing for individuality and artistry.

Orlov said:

I do not like the voluntarism of what is happening. That is, they are changing the sport in a grandiose manner, on a fundamental level. And what, they do not want to know the opinion of hundreds of thousands (and perhaps even millions) of fans around?

These guys do not grow bread, do not mine coal and do not build power plants (that which has objective value). All their value is in our eyes and hearts. Without us, it’s just a meaningless ride on pieces of iron on ice. Therefore, we must be asked whether we want a fundamental change in sports.

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How about asking the skaters themselves first -- the current senior competitors, recently and not-so-recently retired competitors, and current coaches? Ultimately this historically and still primarily amateur sport exists for the participants more than for the fans.

Yes, attracting audiences is a consideration, and yes the current competitive skaters and coaches will adapt their training to whatever it takes to win under whatever new rules are put in place.

When looking at what will "grow the sport" should the ISU think more in terms of what will attract more fans worldwide or in specific national markets, or what will attract more participants?

And of course what attracts fans depends a lot on which country's audience we're talking about and also which demographics within those audiences. Including but not limited to a distinction between sports fans who are most impressed by acrobatics in the air and grudgingly tolerate the less obvious athletic and the obviously artistic aspects of the performance, arts fans who are most impressed by overall performance quality and grudgingly tolerate the risky skills that reduce the likelihood of "clean" programs, and skating-specific fans who love the blend of technique and athleticism and artistry and the tensions between them -- even if the exact balance favored by the current rules is not to their individual preference.

tothepointe said:

It's lost more fans that it's gained with it's emphasis on the technical.

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In which country? In which age group?

yume said:

Jason is fairly rewarded for what he does.
I'm saying that a skater from a small fed or a fed with less power would not get the points he deserves. So he can't afford to have only triples. That's why Jin learned quads in priority. That's why Rizzo pushed to get a quad. That's why Yee from a smal small small fed is training to get a consistent quad.

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And yet skaters from smaller federations without quads, such as Deniss Vassiljevs and Misha Ge at 2018 Worlds, could earn PCS comparable to some quadsters from larger federations with comparable skating skills when they skated clean.

Mrs. P said:

I think yeah there’s an average or benchmark with abilities. But I don’t think Emmy’s scenario is a rare case. Look at the number of men who can’t execute a 3F on the right edge, but yet can do a 4T, no problem. Same with Lambiel, who could do beautiful 4T easily but had a hell of a time doing 3As.

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So for you there are many quadsters who can't put a transition before a triple that they can do? And in my knowledge all top quadsters can do all triples.
Honestly, i don't see how.