2021 ISU Congress: proposals received

[flanker]

I'm proposing to call men - gentlemen.
Keep ladies - ladies.

I agree on this.

 

[anonymoose_au]

I'm proposing to call men - gentlemen.
Keep ladies - ladies.

There is a certain refinement to having ladies and gentlemen, like at Wimbledon.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I like this. "Women" is a more neutral term and doesn't have the connotation of being "lady-like". Took them long enough though.

But, as I have written before whenever this comes up, "women" is considered a derogotory term here in NI. If a female is called a "woman", the implication is that they are old and past it. Same with "man". Nobody wants to be described by either of those terms. It is considered the ultimate insult.

The exception to the rule is "wee woman", which is used as an affectionate term for a little girl.

Hence, I avoid using both of those terms, even though they are the scientific term for a female human adult and a male human adult.

For females, the most commonly used term is "girl". Probably because it is the scientific term for a female human child, it is considered as complimentary. If a female is called a "girl", the implication is that they are young and in their prime. The exact opposite of "woman".

But, curiously, the same is not the case for the scientific term for a male human child. "Boy" is considered derogotory. If a male is called a "boy", the implication is that they are immature. Hence, I find it very difficult to find a suitable term for describing a male human adult. I usually end up using "guy", which is a word I absolutely hate!

Life is so complicated in NI! You always have to be so careful with what you say!

I like "Ladies". It does not have the same derogotory connotations as "women". And it has a nicer sound to it when you say it.

I'm proposing to call men - gentlemen.
Keep ladies - ladies.

I second this. These are what the Singles categories were originally called back in the early days of figure skating competitions. And the historian in me likes keeping traditional terms.

The problem is that "gentlemen" is a mouthful to say and to write. Which is probably why it evolved into the shorter "men" in the first place!

Like, if people can't write out partnership names in full...

CaroLiza_fan

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

- raising age limits for Senior to 17 for Single and 15 for Pair/Dance (proposed by Norway, proposal 47)

No. If we are changing age limits, it should be maximum of 18 for Juniors, and minimum of 16 for Seniors.

- raising age limits to be allowed to stay junior for Pair/Dance to 21 also for women (by Canada, proposal 48)

But, the whole idea of having split age limits is because in so many partnerships, the female partner is much younger than the male partner. And, hence, there is a danger of them being left in limbo for a few years if one is too old for Juniors and the other is too young for Seniors.

The current system is not ideal, as it means we end up with grown-up male skaters in their twenties competing against what are essentially young children. So, why would we want to let grown-up female skaters in their twenties in too?!

No, if you want to have gender equality, decrease the maximum age for the male skaters to be the same as it is for the female skaters.

- introducing age limits for cubs and chicks (proposed by Hungary, proposal 49)

Definitely. Because I can never understand the requirements for the levels below Novice.

- introducing Junior Europeans and Junior 4 Continents (put forward by Hungary, proposal 64)

But, we already have a Junior version of Europeans. The EYOF. The difference to the Senior version is that it is held every other year, and is part of a multi-sport event.

And the Hungarian Fed can't claim that they didn't know about the EYOF, because they sent Júlia Láng to the most recent edition! And have regularly sent skaters to previous editions.

Agree with a Junior version of 4 Continents, though.

- setting minimum TES scores during the Summer and not after (proposed by Iceland, proposal 203)

I take it this is to avoid the moving of the goalposts that we saw in the last proper season. If so, I fully agree! But, I would make sure that it is done earlier than "during the Summer", so that the skaters / their coaches / their choreographers can properly prepare. So, maybe straight after Worlds.

-increase the number of competitions used to set the Olympic spots (proposed by Hungary, proposal 205)

Why not just base it on ISU World Standings? Seems a fairer idea to me!

- proposals to split the panel of judges between judges focusing on GOEs and judges on some PCS (put forwards by Netherlands and Canada/Italy, proposals 190/191)
- proposals to keep the individual judges' marks anonymous until the end of the event (proposed by Italy, Canada and China, proposal 199)
- increasing the number of judges at 4 Continents (put forwards by ISU Technical Committees, proposal 257)

This is getting too technical for me.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[ice coverage]

- introducing Junior Europeans and Junior 4 Continents (put forward by Hungary, proposal 64)

... But, we already have a Junior version of Europeans. The EYOF. The difference to the Senior version is that it is held every other year, and is part of a multi-sport event.

And the Hungarian Fed can't claim that they didn't know about the EYOF, because they sent Júlia Láng to the most recent edition! And have regularly sent skaters to previous editions. ...

We do not already have a Junior version of Euros.
European Youth Olympic Festival figure skating competition falls short of the supposed equivalency for multiple reasons.
(Junior Worlds are quite different from Youth Olympic Games figure skating, and similarly, Junior Euros presumably would be quite different from EYOF figure skating.)
`
- EYOF figure skating competition is only for singles.

No ice dance, no pairs.​

ETA:

And each country is allowed a maximum of only one entry in "boys"/men and only one entry in "girls"/ladies.​

- The age requirements for EYOF (and YOG) are way more restrictive than ISU age rules for juniors.

For 2019 EYOF (in Feb), "Athletes must be born between 01/07/2002 –30/06/2004."​

- EYOF is only a biannual event (as CL_fan mentioned).

Whereas for Junior Euros and Junior Four Continents:
"Hungary truly recommends to organize the above-mentioned events annually. In case financial difficulties may occur the biannual organization seems also feasible."​

- EYOF athletes must jump through citizenship-related hoops.

"Any competitor in the EYOF must be a national or citizen of the country or territory of the NOC which is entering him/her or have the right of being a national or citizen of such country when the competitor reaches the legal majority of age. In any case, the NOC must, on the request of the Organising Committee or the EOC, duly prove the nationality, citizenship or right to obtain one or other by the competitor. A NOC which wishes to enter an athlete who does not meet these criteria, must submit a written and detailed request to the EOC EYOF Commission not later than four months before the date of the Opening Ceremony."​

 

[gliese]

except that this is a move a few decades too late at least... with the womyn and womxn spellings to avoid the sexism in the spelling...

Many people find the use of "womxn" and "womyn" to be the opposite of inclusive and empowering.

- proposals to split the panel of judges between judges focusing on GOEs and judges on some PCS (put forwards by Netherlands and Canada/Italy, proposals 190/191)

Yes please.

 

[LutzDance]

But, as I have written before whenever this comes up, "women" is considered a derogotory term here in NI. If a female is called a "woman", the implication is that they are old and past it. Same with "man". Nobody wants to be described by either of those terms. It is considered the ultimate insult.

The exception to the rule is "wee woman", which is used as an affectionate term for a little girl.

Hence, I avoid using both of those terms, even though they are the scientific term for a female human adult and a male human adult.

For females, the most commonly used term is "girl". Probably because it is the scientific term for a female human child, it is considered as complimentary. If a female is called a "girl", the implication is that they are young and in their prime. The exact opposite of "woman".

But, curiously, the same is not the case for the scientific term for a male human child. "Boy" is considered derogotory. If a male is called a "boy", the implication is that they are immature. Hence, I find it very difficult to find a suitable term for describing a male human adult. I usually end up using "guy", which is a word I absolutely hate!

Life is so complicated in NI! You always have to be so careful with what you say!

I like "Ladies". It does not have the same derogotory connotations as "women". And it has a nicer sound to it when you say it.

Thank you for enlightening me on the usage of gender terms in NI. Gotta admit I was absolutely ignorant on this matter However, I do find it an even sadder reason to not use "women" (or "men") because of its derogatory implication derived from ageism...Being old shouldn't be a point of insult

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to fault the usage of these words in your culture. I actually find it fascinating how the same terms evolved to have different connotations among different speaker populations. I'm just sharing my outsider's reaction to hearing about this for the first time & why I still prefer using "women" and "men" to designate the disciplines. And no matter how they are called, I'm still excited to watch skates by un-gentle men and un-ladylike women

 

[LiamV426]

YES to Junior Euros/4CC, especially if they decide to raise the Senior age limit (though I think 16 would be more reasonable). Cost is the main barrier but I will never say no to more skating.

Also agree with splitting the judges panel into Tech and PCS.

 

[ELEk3k]

YES to Junior Euros/4CC, especially if they decide to raise the Senior age limit (though I think 16 would be more reasonable). Cost is the main barrier but I will never say no to more skating.

Also agree with splitting the judges panel into Tech and PCS.

If an increase in the age level is done to limit the presence of the number of young Russian ladies at competitions, then it is too late, because there are: Shcherbakova, Kostornaya, Trusova, Tuktamysheva and they are already 17 or more. What will it change? It seems to me that this makes the path more difficult for athletes from other countries.

 

[LiamV426]

If an increase in the age level is done to limit the presence of the number of young Russian ladies at competitions, then it is too late, because there are: Shcherbakova, Kostornaya, Trusova, Tuktamysheva and they are already 17 or more. What will it change? It seems to me that this makes the path more difficult for athletes from other countries.

Not sure why you're asking me since I never said I agreed with raising the age limit lol. If anything I'm against raising it to 17 'cause I think that's too drastic. I would be fine with them raising it by one year, I don't think it will change things that much (Russians will still dominate) but if their goal is to encourage more longevity then I guess they can test it out.

 

[4everchan]

Many people find the use of "womxn" and "womyn" to be the opposite of inclusive and empowering.

so what do these people suggest then?

 

[gliese]

so what do these people suggest then?

Just women. There's nothing wrong with it.

 

[4everchan]

Just women. There's nothing wrong with it.

to some, there is. that's why there is a movement about it but i understand that for you, that's not an issue. But we agree that "ladies" has got to go?

 

[gliese]

to some, there is. that's why there is a movement about it but i understand that for you, that's not an issue. But we agree that "ladies" has got to go?

Yes, ladies has to go.

 

[Amei]

so what do these people suggest then?

Might regret getting involved in this similar to the ISU might eventually regret, the current environment someone will always be offended by something as several people have pointed to ladies, women, womxn, girl, boy, etc bothers somebody somewhere. Maybe they should change it to the xx chromosome group and the xy chromosome group. Would that safely avoid upsetting most people? I'm sure they release it someone will get offended by it.

 

[4everchan]

Might regret getting involved in this similar to the ISU might eventually regret, the current environment someone will always be offended by something as several people have pointed to ladies, women, womxn, girl, boy, etc bothers somebody somewhere. Maybe they should change it to the xx chromosome group and the xy chromosome group. Would that safely avoid upsetting most people? I'm sure they release it someone will get offended by it.

xx and xy will annoy people with different alphabets

 

[Amei]

xx and xy will annoy people with different alphabets

See what I mean?

 

[4everchan]

See what I mean?

i know.. i was playing around

 

[Amei]

i know.. i was playing around

I figured you probably were

 

[4everchan]

I figured you probably were

in any case, for me, it's simple hommes et simple femmes. So i have no issue with those terms... but for pairs, they use patinage en couple... which has a connotation that the skaters form an union off-ice LOL so I use Pairs LOL