ISU Council decision on Jr Pair ages

[el henry]

I will say this: I don't think anyone, at least in the US, is *encouraging* pairing 12 to 14 year olds with skaters in their late teens or 20s. I think those steps are taken out of desperation due to the shortage of pairs guys/lifting partners. (Maybe when lifting partner, rather than guy, becomes more accepted, there will be less of a shortage?)

I don't think desperation is a good enough reason.

I did indeed listen to Chris Knierim's interview, within a day of its posting. He is very thoughtful. He made clear that the distressing (to me) age gap in one pair he was coaching was due to what he viewed as extenuating circumstances, it was not ideal, and every precaution would be taken for the protection of the minor, non-lifting partner.

I still don't like it and I don't like that the system of points encourages the lifting partner being so much taller and larger than the non lifting partner, so they can "safely" complete the tricky elements.

Would Tai and Randy, even accounting for jump differences, even have a chance today?

 

[cheerknithanson]

I will say this: I don't think anyone, at least in the US, is *encouraging* pairing 12 to 14 year olds with skaters in their late teens or 20s. I think those steps are taken out of desperation due to the shortage of pairs guys/lifting partners. (Maybe when lifting partner, rather than guy, becomes more accepted, there will be less of a shortage?)

I don't think desperation is a good enough reason.

I did indeed listen to Chris Knierim's interview, within a day of its posting. He is very thoughtful. He made clear that the distressing (to me) age gap in one pair he was coaching was due to what he viewed as extenuating circumstances, it was not ideal, and every precaution would be taken for the protection of the minor, non-lifting partner.

I still don't like it and I don't like that the system of points encourages the lifting partner being so much taller and larger than the non lifting partner, so they can "safely" complete the tricky elements.

Would Tai and Randy, even accounting for jump differences, even have a chance today?

Talk to some male cheerleaders. They're not all tall.

 

[el henry]

Talk to some male cheerleaders. They're not all tall.

And aren't women cheerleaders are lifting partners. too? Skating could learn from cheerleading, it seems.

 

[cheerknithanson]

And aren't women cheerleaders are lifting partners. too? Skating could learn from cheerleading, it seems.

As someone who has done cheerleading, I say there are quite a lot of similarities.

Yes they are. I'm talking about male cheerleaders because there are some of them that aren't like 6 feet that can lift a woman 5 feet and up off of the ground by themselves.

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

And aren't women cheerleaders are lifting partners. too? Skating could learn from cheerleading, it seems.

All-star cheer has also recently updated its age grids partly, I believe, to try to limit the age range of teams and stop 12/13 year old tiny flyers being thrown around by 18+ aged athletes.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Would be so nice if that were true.

Just one recent example:
Did you watch the pairs' competition at Worlds last season? Did you see Safina/Berulava? Even without the backstory of her injury, just watching that performance, do you believe Karina's safety and well-being were first on her partner's or her coaches' mind?

I was addressing a specific comment regarding the phrasing "thrown across a rink." I've seen pairs ladies thrown into the air to execute pairs moves. I've not seen anyone 'thrown across a rink.'

Whether you think so or not, the pairs discipline is taught by responsible coaches with the utmost safety in mind. Jim Peterson and his colleagues spoke about and demonstrated this philosophy and methodology in his episodic series of pairs moves demonstrations.

In regard to Safina/ Berulava, yes I saw them at Worlds 2023. It was sad that she was coming back from an injury, and she did not look in good shape to be competing. It's a valid concern to discuss problematic issues that happen between pairs partners and their coaches. But it is a topic that should be discussed in its own thread. There have unfortunately been a number of off-topic conversations brought up in this thread, which should be discussed in threads devoted to such topics.

 

[midori green]

Does anyone know if the "Age Categories Harmonization Junior and below" group is also considering raising the minimum age for juniors?

 

[moonvine]

I will say this: I don't think anyone, at least in the US, is *encouraging* pairing 12 to 14 year olds with skaters in their late teens or 20s. I think those steps are taken out of desperation due to the shortage of pairs guys/lifting partners. (Maybe when lifting partner, rather than guy, becomes more accepted, there will be less of a shortage?)

I don't think desperation is a good enough reason.

I did indeed listen to Chris Knierim's interview, within a day of its posting. He is very thoughtful. He made clear that the distressing (to me) age gap in one pair he was coaching was due to what he viewed as extenuating circumstances, it was not ideal, and every precaution would be taken for the protection of the minor, non-lifting partner.

I still don't like it and I don't like that the system of points encourages the lifting partner being so much taller and larger than the non lifting partner, so they can "safely" complete the tricky elements.

Would Tai and Randy, even accounting for jump differences, even have a chance today?

My guess is YES, because Mr. Nicks is a genius. I just watched the Tai Babilonia movie a couple of days ago and there was indeed a flurry when she grew. But Mr. Nicks basically said they would turn a negative into a positive and they were not going to look like anyone else. From the movie it did look like they had to relearn a lot of things, if not everything. But they were together 40 or 50 YEARS so ...yeah it was successful. TaiandRandy. But without Mr. Nicks, who knows.

 

[SubRosa]

I left for vacation just before Communication 2575 came out, so just getting caught up now.

Carving out exceptions for the pairs caught in junior/senior age-ineligibility limbo? If it was to happen at all, it should have happened this time last year, when the new age-eligibility rules were first put in place.

Generally, I am pro raising the minimum age for senior competition, BUT

I also feel badly for any pairs who formed in good faith under the previous age-eligibility rules, with a reasonable expectation that they could proceed relatively seamlessly from junior to senior competition, then had international competitive opportunities taken away by the new rules.

Anyone who has been following this sport for any length of time knows that the ISU has ever been an organization that fails to consider the ramifications of its actions, and then has to issue corrections when unintended consequences occur. Add this one more to the list.

I agree that the discipline of pairs needs a rethink, that it is too heteronormative, that it has become too reliant on size and age differences for the partners to master the required elements.

On the other hand, pair skaters are often staying in the discipline well into their 20s, 30s (and beyond!), so they have a longer competitive lifespan over which to acquire new skills and refine technique and performance. No need to rush to acquire triple everything while still in juniors. So less need for a wide size/age difference at the junior level.

Hopefully, going forward, having junior pairs with smaller age differences results in a healthier, more respectful environment for young athletes to develop in.

Meanwhile, I find it galling that pairs currently in age-eligibility limbo are paying the price for the ISU’s boneheadedness.

 

[Mathman]

Personally, I've never seen anyone intentionally "thrown across the rink." There's always safety first in pairs figure skating.

Xue Shen and Hongbo Zhao when they first started out? Though it was more like, "threw her into the third row,of the audience." We'd never seen anything like it!

Sorry for the off-topic. She's 44 and he's 49 and they're married and living happily ever after. .

 

[moonvine]

Hopefully, going forward, having junior pairs with smaller age differences results in a healthier, more respectful environment for young athletes to develop in.

Meanwhile, I find it galling that pairs currently in age-eligibility limbo are paying the price for the ISU’s boneheadedness.

I don't think there are enough junior pairs with smaller age differences and some will continue to have to be paired up with larger age differences. Possibly breaking up when they are no longer eligible to skate internationally and perhaps sticking it out, like Ellie and Timmy seem determined to do.

 

[4everchan]

I don't think there are enough junior pairs with smaller age differences and some will continue to have to be paired up with larger age differences. Possibly breaking up when they are no longer eligible to skate internationally and perhaps sticking it out, like Ellie and Timmy seem determined to do.

You know, with the amount of switcheroo that goes on in pairs skating, I think I have a hard time understanding the need to sticking it out for one or two seasons... They could try other partners and learn from that... and come back together later. There is nothing like competitive experience. I say this because we see a lot of changes in senior years anyways, not motivated by age gaps... but by so many other factors... Injuries, different career paths, etc.

So why would a team not compete until they become both senior eligible ? Money is also a factor you know. Without competition eligibility, there is no national funding available, is there?

Both these skaters could partner up with age appropriate skaters, and consider teaming back up if needed at a later point... They would both learn a lot ! i don't know... I find it very confusing.

 

[NanaPat]

Xue Shen and Hongbo Zhao when they first started out? Though it was more like, "threw her into the third row,of the audience." We'd never seen anything like it!

Sorry for the off-topic. She's 44 and he's 49 and they're married and living happily ever after. .

I was thinking Peng and Zhang. Not such a happy outcome for them. Well, Peng did OK after the great partner swap, but Yu was not so lucky.

 

[4everchan]

I was thinking Peng and Zhang. Not such a happy outcome for them. Well, Peng did OK after the great partner swap, but Yu was not so lucky.

yeah.. i remember that time where Peng was thrown very far, fell, and he just sort of kept going...

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Xue Shen and Hongbo Zhao when they first started out? Though it was more like, "threw her into the third row,of the audience." We'd never seen anything like it!

Sorry for the off-topic. She's 44 and he's 49 and they're married and living happily ever after. .

Thanks for the laughter @Mathman, and for your lighthearted contribution to this rather overwrought thread!

Frankly, it was Chinese skaters who brought jaw-dropping twists and throws to pairs. The huge height and distance they accomplished was marveled at and emulated.

It was Zhang/ Zhang who had that heart-stopping moment at the Olympics when she fell so badly on a throw, it looked like she needed medical attention stat. But she ultimately finished the program, and they were placed second.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

You know, with the amount of switcheroo that goes on in pairs skating, I think I have a hard time understanding the need to sticking it out for one or two seasons... They could try other partners and learn from that... and come back together later. There is nothing like competitive experience. I say this because we see a lot of changes in senior years anyways, not motivated by age gaps... but by so many other factors... Injuries, different career paths, etc.

So why would a team not compete until they become both senior eligible ? Money is also a factor you know. Without competition eligibility, there is no national funding available, is there?

Both these skaters could partner up with age appropriate skaters, and consider teaming back up if needed at a later point... They would both learn a lot ! i don't know... I find it very confusing.

FYI-- The ISU council ruling involves narrowly addressing the undeserved prospect several junior teams were facing regarding sitting out more than one season because of the new age limit rule. That's why the exception to the rule was made. Thus, B/T don't have to 'stick it out' for two seasons. Plus, further junior age eligibility changes may be voted on next year. Meanwhile, the ISU council exception only applies to teams who competed in juniors last season. This is why Timmy Chapman & Ellie Korytek can't benefit. Chapman is ineligible, having aged out of juniors for a couple of seasons already.

I find it confusing why you're acting so overly concerned about Baram/ Tioutmentsev and their future plans. They are the reigning Junior World champions in pairs. They are clearly well-suited to each other talent-wise, and their results prove that, regardless of what sideline observers feel about their ages.

It seems obvious to me that under the rules that were originally in existence, Sonia & Daniel anticipated having to sit out this coming season, and they were making plans accordingly. Like Olivia Flores and Lia Pereira, Sonia competes in both singles and pairs, so she still has her singles career to concentrate on. Her mother is involved in the sport too, which is helpful. Meanwhile, a recent US figsk fan zone feature on Daniel discussed his excitement over an internship he has in aerospace engineering. That's his chosen profession off-ice.

These two young people are very talented and motivated. They have so much ahead of them in life and in pursuing whatever their hearts desire. I'd love to see them further fulfill their potential together in pairs figure skating, but the decision is up to them, their coaches, and their parents. I've never heard of any pairs team intentionally breaking up with the plan to get back together at a later date.

It's not a given that Sonia/ Daniel have decided to compete together again in junior pairs. I heard that U.S. fed will have to put in an application request to the ISU by July 20, in order for Sonia/ Daniel to take advantage of the recent ISU council ruling. Whatever is decided, I wish these two nothing but blessings and fulfillment of their dreams.

 

[4everchan]

FYI-- The ISU council ruling involved narrowly addressing the undeserved prospect several junior teams were facing regarding sitting out more than one season because of the new age limit rule. That's why the exception to the rule was made. Thus, B/T don't have to 'stick it out' for two seasons. Plus, further junior age eligibility changes may be voted on next year. Meanwhile, the ISU council exception only applies to teams who competed in juniors last season. This is why Timmy Chapman & Ellie Korytek can't benefit. Chapman is ineligible, having aged out of juniors for a couple of seasons already.

I know all of this. I am not talking about any team in particular but the situation in general.

I find it confusing why you're acting so overly concerned about Baram/ Tioutmentsev and their future plans. They are the reigning Junior World champions in pairs. They are clearly well-suited to each other talent-wise, and their results prove that, regardless of what sideline observers feel about their ages.

Because i am not even talking about them?

It seems obvious to me that under the rules that were originally in existence, Sonia & Daniel anticipated having to sit out this coming season, and they were making plans accordingly. Like Olivia Flores and Lia Pereira, Sonia competes in both singles and pairs, so she still has her singles career to concentrate on. Her mother is involved in the sport too, which is helpful. Meanwhile, a recent US figsk fan zone feature on Daniel discussed his excitement over an internship he has in aerospace engineering. That's his chosen profession off-ice.

These two young people are very talented and motivated. They have so much ahead of them in life and in pursuing whatever their hearts desire. I'd love to see them further fulfill their potential together in pairs figure skating, but the decision is up to them, their coaches, and their parents. I've never heard of any pairs team intentionally breaking up with the plan to get back together at a later date.

I am well aware they are talented and motivated... it's kind of hard to be a junior world champion without that.

It's not a given that Sonia/ Daniel have decided to compete again in Juniors. I heard that U.S. fed will have to put in an application request to the ISU by July 20, in order for Sonia/ Daniel to take advantage of the recent ISU council ruling. Whatever is decided, I wish these two nothing but blessings and fulfillment of their dreams.

If you want me to discuss B/T, then my beef with the rules and not the skaters themselves is that it does allow a much older and stronger male partner in the playing field with aspiring junior male partners of younger age and lesser experience. IMHO, the favour done to B/T creates an unfair situation to all the other teams, let alone all the other issues mentioned about building teams around an extreme difference in body types which may lead to major injuries.

 

[4everchan]

and it's not just Zhang and Zhang...
there are other moments including P/Z

This is in training.. the way he picks her up.. pretty much throwing her to the board and skates off with a smile...

sorry but yeah... there are reasons why closer in age matched partners is something people advocate for.

 

[4everchan]

And this is the event described where he skates away...

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

@4everchan, your post to which I responded speaks for itself. No need for you to re-explain. And nope, I haven't asked you to discuss B/T. You specifically said you found the possibility of them 'sticking it out' 'confusing,' and you specifically suggested that B/T "could partner up with age appropriate skaters, and consider teaming back up at a later date..." and that "they could learn a lot" from doing so.

I mentioned the specifics of the ISU council ruling because in the previous page in a conversation you had with @moonvine who explained to you Korytek/ Chapman's circumstances, you responded:

this is exactly why I detest these exceptions... if you let B/T compete, then, let everyone compete...

Your response is not taking into consideration what the ISU council stated about the narrow exception they are making for junior teams adversely impacted by the recent senior age eligibility changes. The exception only applies to junior teams who competed in juniors last season.

the favour done to B/T creates an unfair situation to all the other teams,

Which teams is the recent exception "unfair to," and exactly how is the exception 'unfair' to those teams?

I don't tend to agree with the ISU's approaches to running the sport, and I dislike their lack of vision and their ineffective leadership. Yet, I do understand that exceptions to ill-conceived rulings or to sound, justified rulings, take place all the time, and not just in figure skating. OTOH, I don't like that the ISU hastily made the senior age limit eligibility rules change in reaction to the Olympic doping scandal, without carefully considering probable impacts. I personally feel they should have concentrated on women's singles when revising senior age limits. Women's singles is the discipline where concerns had been raised for awhile.

In any case, the ISU has made exceptions to rulings before, and they will undoubtedly do so again. Thus, you are in error in post #77, to characterize the outcome of this current exception as "the favour done to Baram/ Tioutmentsev."