ISU proposal - Rule 108 - age limitations

[Weathergal]

I didn't say they were insufferable. I said changing the rules to allow them another year of junior worlds would be insufferable.

There were a lot of complaints this year because they are a senior-eligible and senior-skilled team who skated junior as well. It just didn't seem fair to the "true juniors", who were far outclassed. OK, so they didn't break any rules, and they are eligible. So let them compete. Don't watch them in juniors if you don't think they should be there. OK, I can cope.

But he said in an interview (paraphrasing) that he hoped the eligibility rules would be changed so they could go to junior worlds again next year. That is besides competing senior all year, of course (he didn't say that part, but I think it's understood. He only mentioned Jr Worlds, not the JGP).

So, should the eligibility rules be changed to allow skaters who won a medal at Europeans and came top-10 at senior worlds THIS year to still go to JR Worlds NEXT year? I think it is a good argument for NOT changing the rules!

I didn't know that Berulava said that. I find that very disappointing. At the beginning of the season, they had said that they were entering JGP, etc. because they weren't going to get assignments on Senior GP. which I understood. But by the time Worlds rolled around, I was thinking they could just go to Senior Worlds - but I could understand if they wanted to "finish out their junior season" by going to Junior Worlds as well. They're certainly not the only competitors who have done that.

But to compete at Juniors again this season is really pushing it, in my opinion. They've both competed successfully in juniors before, albeit with other partners, and, more importantly, after last season, it's clear they've outgrown juniors, skills wise if not age wise - and they'll now be eligible for Senior GP assignments. I say this as someone who actually liked their SP

 

[Jumping_Bean]

So we have the first official confirmation of one set of age limit proposals - For the Novice categories.

Category	Old age limitations	Proposed new age limitations
Basic Novice	Under 13	Under 14
Intermediate Novice	Under 15	Under 16
Advanced Novice	For singles and girls in partnered disciplines: Over 10 and under 15 For boys in partnered disciplines: Over 10 and under 17	For singles and girls in partnered disciplines: Over 10 and under 16 For boys in partnered disciplines: Over 10 and under 18

If the proposals for Juniors follow the same logic, then they will propose to raise the upper limit from below 19 to below 20 for Singles and women in partnered disciplines, and from below 21 to below 22 for men in partnered disciplines.

Note: All proposals still have to pass the ISU Congress and can be rejected.

 

[icewhite]

It's just so wrong to have different rules for boys and girls, it makes me angry each time I see it.

 

[Mathman]

It's just so wrong to have different rules for boys and girls, it makes me angry each time I see it.

I think that the ISU has its work cut out for them. It is easy to pass rules about age categories, but more complicated to design a sport that takes into account what skills and level of proficiency each age category should entail.

In the case of pairs skating, I have mixed feelings. Suppose we are parents of a 13-year-old girl. Would we feel secure that a 13-year-old boy has sufficient strength and balance to lift and hold her over his head while skating or rotating on the ice, or to perform assisted throw jumps with security? Would we be more comfortable (or less comfortable) if thee boy were 17? Or would we rather see the rules go in the direction of, no lifts or throws until both partners are t least 16?

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

This is getting ridiculous. There was nothing wrong with the upper age limits at the various Novice levels. The thing that needed to be looked at was the lower age limits.

I think this is the way the age ranges were for Ladies Singles before the ISU started messing about with them:

​	​	Level​	​	​
15​	≤​	Senior​	>​	N/A​
13​	≤​	Junior​	>​	19​
10​	≤​	Advanced Novice​	>​	15​
N/A​	≤​	Intermediate Novice​	>​	15​
N/A​	≤​	Basic Novice I​	>​	13​
N/A​	≤​	Basic Novice II​	>​	12​
N/A​	≤​	Basic Novice III​	>​	11​
9​	≤​	Cubs I​	>​	10​
8​	≤​	Cubs II​	>​	9​
7​	≤​	Chicks I​	>​	8​
N/A​	≤​	Chicks II​	>​	7​

When there are defined minimum and maximum ages for the levels above and below the Novice levels, it seems bizarre that there are not minimum ages for Basic Novice and Intermediate Novice.

Surely it is not right that a six year old is too young to be allowed to compete at Chicks I level, yet they are age eligible for Intermediate Novice level.

The following may be simplistic, but this is the way I see it. All that needed to be done was to raise the minimum age for Seniors by 1 year to 16; lower the maximum age for Juniors by 1 year to 18; and to introduce minimum ages for the Intermediate and Basic Novice levels. To get this:

​	​	Level​	​	​
16​	≤​	Senior​	>​	N/A​
13​	≤​	Junior​	>​	18​
10​	≤​	Advanced Novice​	>​	15​
13​	≤​	Intermediate Novice​	>​	15​
12​	≤​	Basic Novice I​	>​	13​
11​	≤​	Basic Novice II​	>​	12​
10​	≤​	Basic Novice III​	>​	11​
9​	≤​	Cubs I​	>​	10​
8​	≤​	Cubs II​	>​	9​
7​	≤​	Chicks I​	>​	8​
N/A​	≤​	Chicks II​	>​	7​

Oh, and to make them apply across the board, to all skaters in all categories.

But the way the ISU are tackling the age ranges is a mess. And it will involve years of disruption and confusion before it all settles down.

It is the skaters affected while this is going on that I feel sorry for.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Jumping_Bean]

It is the skaters affected while this is going on that I feel sorry for.

Don't be, many of the skaters will be happy to get another Jr season "gifted" to them if that is what ends up happening. Not in women's singles, but in men's and the partnered disciplines for sure.

Raising the lower age limits is what would actually get them grumbling though

(Oh, and I don't know if it makes sense to keep the lower limit for Advanced Novices at ten and the Juniors at 13 when skaters wouldn't even be eligible for Intermediates until 13 - It's supposed to be somewhat of a natural progression.)

 

[icewhite]

I think that the ISU has its work cut out for them. It is easy to pass rules about age categories, but more complicated to design a sport that takes into account what skills and level of proficiency each age category should entail.

In the case of pairs skating, I have mixed feelings. Suppose we are parents of a 13-year-old girl. Would we feel secure that a 13-year-old boy has sufficient strength and balance to lift and hold her over his head while skating or rotating on the ice, or to perform assisted throw jumps with security? Would we be more comfortable (or less comfortable) if thee boy were 17? Or would we rather see the rules go in the direction of, no lifts or throws until both partners are t least 16?

Well, I can't answer that because if I had a teenage girl I wouldn't feel good with her doing pairs anyways... But I think it's necessary that the coaches are reasonable about it. We see many girls (and boys) switching to pairs later than 13... so maybe that's what's necessary, I can't say I have all the solutions because I don't know enough about pairs. But I do know that there are enough 16 year old boys who are basically as strong as strong adult men. And at 18 they are definitely as strong and fully grown up in that regard.. Unless you sort them out because they are too heavy...

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

(Oh, and I don't know if it makes sense to keep the lower limit for Advanced Novices at ten and the Juniors at 13 when skaters wouldn't even be eligible for Intermediates until 13 - It's supposed to be somewhat of a natural progression.)

That's the whole point - it isn't supposed to be a natural progression. It is supposed to be two different pathways from Cubs to Juniors. One path for lower ability skaters, and one path for higher ability skaters. And you could move from one pathway to the other depending on how you progressed.

This was more obvious under the old names:

Lower Ability Pathway​	Higher Ability Pathway​
13 ≤ Basic Novice B [Intermediate Novice] > 15 10 ≤ Basic Novice A [Basic Novice] > 13​	10 ≤ Advanced Novice > 15​

But, a lot of people (like me!) kept getting confused as to whether Basic Novice A or Basic Novice B came first. So, they changed the names so that it would be more obvious which came first. But, this made the pathways less obvious.

NOTE: Because of the hash the ISU made when they re-designed their website a few years ago, I can't actually find any of the ISU Communications that give the age ranges for the Novice levels under their old names. So, the ranges in this post are based on a conversation that I had a few years ago with a member who knows these sorts of things inside out.

EDIT: It took a while, but I've finally found the PDF that we were reading back then. (Thank goodness somebody decided to archive it to the Wayback Machine!)

https://web.archive.org/web/2015090...09367/1947-fs-novice-comm-2015_16_revised.pdf

What I wrote was correct. So now I'm wondering when it was that the ISU made the bizare decision to do away with the minimum ages. Was it when they changed the names of the levels?​

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Mathematician]

It's just so wrong to have different rules for boys and girls, it makes me angry each time I see it.

I do dislike the difference in tech requirements for girls and guys, but I get that age rules are highly nuanced when trying to account for the difference in development between boys and girls especially with young ages.

 

[Mathman]

For whatever reasons, the sport of figure skating seems to suit very young girls just fine. Sonja Henie was world champion at 14. So was Tara Lipinski. At 14 Julia Lipnitskia and Kamila Valievia displayed world champion level talent.

In men, this stage of development seems to come at ages 18 or 19. Dick Button, Evgenny Plushenko, Nathan Chen, ilia Malinin and other boy wonders all won thier first world championships around those ages.

In pairs, all I can say is, three cheers for Deanna Stellato!

 

[Mathematician]

For whatever reasons, the sport of figure skating seems to suit very young girls just fine. Sonja Henie was world champion at 14. So was Tara Lipinski. At 14 Julia Lipnitskia and Kamila Valievia displayed world champion level talent.

In men, this stage of development seems to come at ages 18 or 19. Dick Button, Evgenny Plushenko, Nathan Chen, ilia Malinin and other boy wonders all won thier first world championships around those ages.

In pairs, all I can say is, three cheers for Deanna Stellato!

Well its a known fact that girls develop earlier than guys by at least a couple years on average. Thats what I was getting at in my earlier reply.

Also girls can get away easier with relative strength & agility but guys need to wait for full muscular maturity to rely more on raw power to deal with their much heavier skeleton.

 

[icewhite]

For whatever reasons, the sport of figure skating seems to suit very young girls just fine. Sonja Henie was world champion at 14. So was Tara Lipinski. At 14 Julia Lipnitskia and Kamila Valievia displayed world champion level talent.

In men, this stage of development seems to come at ages 18 or 19. Dick Button, Evgenny Plushenko, Nathan Chen, ilia Malinin and other boy wonders all won thier first world championships around those ages.

In pairs, all I can say is, three cheers for Deanna Stellato!

Let's imagine Ilia Malinin did not exist and the Russians were allowed to compete internationally. Then Arseny Fedotov and Lev Lazarev would have had good chances to win the last world championships - at age 14.
I think if the boys were as pushed to train and train and train to get the most out of their bodies before puberty hits them fully, they would also peak much earlier. But since puberty with a higher fat percentage and more birth friendly hips is not such a Damokles' sword over their head they are given much more time to develop - although the Eteri boys like Arseniy and Lev are also pushed a lot very early. But even Eteri gives boys more time and even trains adult men.
Our societal expectations have a lot to do with sexual development. But sexual development is not completely parallel to general physical development.

And yes, in pairs we can see that women like Stellato-Dudek and Aliona Savchenko are doing just fine. Most of the girls that end their career early do so because injuries are prevaling (which would be less if they were training less and with a focus on a later career) and the financial benefits of continuing aren't big. Not because their body in general is not made to skate well into their twenties. Yes, there is a time when girls jump quads much easier, but most girls never jump quads anyway and pairs girls don't. Extreme flexibility usually vanishes, but the flexibility that all the adult skaters have is absolutely enough to do great level 4 spins, so it's not like that's hindering them.

Well its a known fact that girls develop earlier than guys by at least a couple years on average. Thats what I was getting at in my earlier reply.

Also girls can get away easier with relative strength & agility but guys need to wait for full muscular maturity to rely more on raw power to deal with their much heavier skeleton.

They mostly develop earlier sexually (and their brains).
Girls develop their strength never as much as boys (on average of course) but they develop pretty much the same as boys until age 13. Then the boys take off and gain much more strength until they are about 18, with the biggest leap around age 13/14. Girls just as well continue to develop their strength until ~age 18. They are not plateauing or something at age 13.
The window for learning complex new movements fast seems to close at roughly the same age for both, about 12-14.
That could be used as an argument that in a sport where the boys are the lifters and the girls are lifted you have to train these movements early.
But we can see that the necessary movements for pairs skating are not too complex for older skaters to learn, since we see many successfully switching to pairs later.
((Also I want to get rid of that anyway, but that's a completely different topic and I'll leave it out here.))

My main point however is that the additional strength a boy gains after 16 is not necessary to lift somebody safely. They are not doing weightlifting with way over 100 kilos. And a 17 year old boy on average is stronger than a 35 year old.

I want to say that girls are not developing much earlier in all areas and that men are not developing as late as one would think seeing these age rules. What we see in girls'/boys' ages in skating is often the result of our expectations and according training and sorting.

 

[4everchan]

did Berulava really say that they would go to WJC again ? Really ? I guess they really need that 15K in prize money.
I am thinking of starting a gofundme campaign to get them that money if they don't take part in JWC !

Ok i am kidding obviously... but it was already a hard pill to swallow this year, we don't need it again. That and their gala number was definitely not something I would ever want to witness again.

They are so skilled already. They will be having their GP spots this year. They will compete all year as seniors.
Also, they were pretty exhausted by the time they got to the senior WC... so many competitions. Programs adjustments to fit the rules of both categories... and what happened ? I thought they had a solid chance to medal at worlds and they finished far away from the podium.

 

[saine]

I went through the mixed zone comments on the Golden Skate Twitter for Junior Worlds/Worlds for what Metelkina/Berulava said about competing next season.

Junior Worlds:

If the age rules are getting changed they consider to maybe skate at another Junior Worlds next season.

Worlds:

About skating in Junior: “In case the ISU changes the rules we might still compete at Junior Worlds but we will do Senior GP.”

So not definitive yet that they'd do Junior Worlds if the age rules change, only maybe/might. They could be saying that now, but then get to next season where they'll be competing as seniors and change their minds after remembering how Worlds went. At least I hope so, they'd look silly if they did compete at Junior Worlds again.

 

[lilimum]

I think the ISU age rules make no sense - why kids with up to 6 years difference in age have to be in the same competition?I would like to apply similar rules like in track and field, each age level below seniors consists of two birth years and skaters of one age level below are allowed to compete in a higher level. e.g. Junior is of 17/18 years old 15/16 years old are allowed. Advanced Novice is 15/16 years, 13/14 years are allowed, Intermediate 13/14 11/12 are allowed. that means maximal 4 years difference in age, what is still a lot. Parallel to that each federation should organize their local competitions with similar age groups with lower requirements to support the sport in the country. Something that e.g. the Spanish fed is doing very well.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

That's the whole point - it isn't supposed to be a natural progression. It is supposed to be two different pathways from Cubs to Juniors. One path for lower ability skaters, and one path for higher ability skaters. And you could move from one pathway to the other depending on how you progressed.

That might be as it was originally intended, but that's honestly not the way the system currently is being used by athletes, in particular in partnered disciplines. To be fair, not a lot of teams actually stay together for that long of a time, but some do. For example, the baby Brits (Ashlie and Atl) started out as Basic Novices in 2017/18, moved up to Intermediate Novices in 2018/19, to Advanced Novices in 2021/22, and finally Juniors in 2022/23.


I also just want to point out that the sub-categories of Basic and Intermediate Novices, as well as the categories below the Novice level, are not actually ISU categories - The sub-categories of the Novice categories are mostly a tool for competition organisers to make the competition less chaotic and groups smaller (at some competitions you'll even find Junior I. and Junior II. for the same reason), and the levels beneath that are only used in inter-club competitions.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I think the ISU age rules make no sense - why kids with up to 6 years difference in age have to be in the same competition?I would like to apply similar rules like in track and field, each age level below seniors consists of two birth years and skaters of one age level below are allowed to compete in a higher level. e.g. Junior is of 17/18 years old 15/16 years old are allowed. Advanced Novice is 15/16 years, 13/14 years are allowed, Intermediate 13/14 11/12 are allowed. that means maximal 4 years difference in age, what is still a lot. Parallel to that each federation should organize their local competitions with similar age groups with lower requirements to support the sport in the country. Something that e.g. the Spanish fed is doing very well.

I just want to point out the absolute difference in scale of figure skating and track & field. Even just one example - Senior pairs. There were 92 pairs who competed in the Sr Category at notable international and national competitions, with a number of them not even being Sr eligible internationally. In contrast, at the World Championship in track & field in 2022, 71 male runners and 49 female runners were set to compete in the 100 m race. Basically, it is much easier (and oftentimes necessary) to make smaller categories if the pool of athletes is much bigger. In several relatively niche sports, there are even no age limits at all (skateboarding, for example).

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I think the ISU age rules make no sense - why kids with up to 6 years difference in age have to be in the same competition?I would like to apply similar rules like in track and field, each age level below seniors consists of two birth years and skaters of one age level below are allowed to compete in a higher level. e.g. Junior is of 17/18 years old 15/16 years old are allowed. Advanced Novice is 15/16 years, 13/14 years are allowed, Intermediate 13/14 11/12 are allowed. that means maximal 4 years difference in age, what is still a lot. Parallel to that each federation should organize their local competitions with similar age groups with lower requirements to support the sport in the country. Something that e.g. the Spanish fed is doing very well.

I agree. What you are suggesting is already being done at Chicks and Cubs levels (see the first table in my post above), and it is kinda being done at Basic Novice level (albeit without minimum ages). So I can't see why it can't be extended to Intermediate Novice, Advanced Novice and Junior levels.

Oh wait, I do. Even if it is the same total number of skaters taking part, the more competitions you have, the more it costs the organisers. Because of extra medals, trophies, prize money, goody bags, etc.

In a sport where the governing body and the national Feds are so cash-strapped, it'll never happen.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

That might be as it was originally intended, but that's honestly not the way the system currently is being used by athletes, in particular in partnered disciplines. To be fair, not a lot of teams actually stay together for that long of a time, but some do. For example, the baby Brits (Ashlie and Atl) started out as Basic Novices in 2017/18, moved up to Intermediate Novices in 2018/19, to Advanced Novices in 2021/22, and finally Juniors in 2022/23.

True.

For some reason, things in this sport never seem to go the way they were intended...

I also just want to point out that the sub-categories of Basic and Intermediate Novices, as well as the categories below the Novice level, are not actually ISU categories - The sub-categories of the Novice categories are mostly a tool for competition organisers to make the competition less chaotic and groups smaller (at some competitions you'll even find Junior I. and Junior II. for the same reason), and the levels beneath that are only used in inter-club competitions.

Good point. In the case of Advanced Novices and Juniors, splitting competitions is usually only done whenever there is a ridiculously large number of entries, so that the officials can get a break. And I have often wondered how the skaters are divided when these occasions arise. Is it by age? Is it drawing names out of a hat?

But with Basic Novice and below, using the sub-divisions I described has become the norm, unless there is an unusally small number of entries, in which case they get re-combined. The ages I quoted were taken from the European Criterium's rules, but other event organisers tend to follow the same rules.

You know, it would be nice if the ISU did formalise these sub-divisions and regulate the younger levels the way they do with the older levels. It would give them an extra air of prestige if they were regulated by the sport's governing body. And it would greatly help with making comparisons between skaters in different countries if everywhere used the same system, because it is mighty confusing at the moment with some Feds using variations, or competely different systems.

For example, British domestic events use the system I described, but they have the levels numbered rather than named (National 8 for Senior; National 7 for Junior; National 6 for Advanced Novice; National 5 for Intermediate Novice; etc.). Bulgaria takes a similar approach, except they use Roman numerals rather than Arabic numerals, and the numbering goes in the opposite direction (Class I for Senior; Class II for Junior; Class III for Advanced Novice; Class IV for Intermediate Novice; etc.).

And as far as I can tell, the American system is completely different!

But, with the way the ISU messes up so many things, maybe it is a good thing that they are not involved...

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Skating91]

I think if the boys were as pushed to train and train and train to get the most out of their bodies before puberty hits them fully, they would also peak much earlier. But since puberty with a higher fat percentage and more birth friendly hips is not such a Damokles' sword over their head they are given much more time to develop - although the Eteri boys like Arseniy and Lev are also pushed a lot very early. But even Eteri gives boys more time and even trains adult men.
Our societal expectations have a lot to do with sexual development. But sexual development is not completely parallel to general physical development.

Growing wider hips or larger chest (I didn't know how to phrase this better) is extremely inefficient when jumping. It is an enormous hindrance, although they are able to adjust as best they can. This is why ultra-c should just be banned for women, so that junior girls or senior women with that body shape who are at an extreme disadvantage have more chance of staying in the sport.

And yes, in pairs we can see that women like Stellato-Dudek and Aliona Savchenko are doing just fine. Most of the girls that end their career early do so because injuries are prevaling (which would be less if they were training less and with a focus on a later career) and the financial benefits of continuing aren't big. Not because their body in general is not made to skate well into their twenties. Yes, there is a time when girls jump quads much easier, but most girls never jump quads anyway and pairs girls don't. Extreme flexibility usually vanishes, but the flexibility that all the adult skaters have is absolutely enough to do great level 4 spins, so it's not like that's hindering them.

Also keep in mind that the number of quotas affects athletes. Liu can return after sitting out two years and a score of 210 should get her to the Olympics. This is not possible in all countries. In some countries you would definitely need high tech, and to have maintained that high tech to go to the Olympics (not that some of those skaters I'm thinking of will be allowed at the Olympics in 2026 or the next 20 years). It's not so much a case of quads breaking athletes and that's why they retire, but with quads being much harder for them as they get older they can't realistically get into the top 3 of their own country, so they decide to make a lot of money skating in shows and enjoy life instead. If Trusova only needed 210 to get to the 2026 Olympics, would she have found a way to continue? I think so. Kostornaia would still be a singles skater as well. This is another reason why I would just ban ultra-c for women at every age level.

My main point however is that the additional strength a boy gains after 16 is not necessary to lift somebody safely. They are not doing weightlifting with way over 100 kilos. And a 17 year old boy on average is stronger than a 35 year old.

No way. Two people a 17 year old and 35 year old has never trained then the 17 year old is maybe stronger. I still doubt it.

But a 35 year old athlete who has done strength training for 20 plus years will always be significantly stronger than a 17 year old that has
focused on strength training.

Like you say however, the extra strength is wasted at some point the people they are lifting are not 100kg.