Was the ISU right to increase age limits?

[GS Forum Staff]

Folks please stay on topic of the thread will be closed.

 

[Anna K.]

Yes, the ISU was right to increase the age limits.

 

[4everchan]

This is not a screenshot from the media, this is a screenshot from an official document. And the links also lead to official documents (including WADA documents). There are no links in the article you trust. If you don’t want to fact-check, well, no one is forcing you. But this is not a sign of cynicism, it is a sign of blind faith in the concept of “good” and “bad” media.

I disagree about supposed blindness towards media. Screenshot from official document still needs to be verified. Very easy to falsify anything nowadays.

To get back on topic, it is way too soon to draw conclusions as the OP suggests with such a new rule. I persist to believe it is a positive change

 

[Anna K.]

it is way too soon to draw conclusions

This.
The rule has not even entered into force fully. We are still in the transition period.

It will take at least 4, but preferably more years before we can see and analyze any effects, whatever those might be. This is if we take the topic seriously, of course.

 

[Cutting the ice]

There is good evidence in the scientific literature of very high rates of injuries sustained by young elite figure skaters - mostly overuse injuries caused by repetitive training practices. This is not news to anybody but I have copy and pasted the abstracts from 3 articles in a separate post if you are interested.

One study from 2003 was conducted at Junior Worlds over several years - so even if a bit older, the information is valuable I think. Almost half of junior skaters at 4 consecutive worlds suffered from overuse injuries (questionnaire data). I wonder what things are like now? Elite figure skaters are also reported to more likely suffer from cold-induced asthma and eating disorders (no surprise).

There were also a couple of articles (not copied and pasted) about the "Female Athlete Triad" - which is common in aesthetic sports (ballet, gymnastics, figure skating) and endurance sports (cross-country racing). This triad is amenorrhea, low energy availability and low bone density. From one abstract "Studies have demonstrated numerous long-term consequences of athletes suffering from all or a portion of this triad, including increased rate of musculoskeletal injuries, stress fractures, abnormal lipid profiles, endothelial dysfunction, potential irreversible bone loss, depression, anxiety, low self- esteem, and increased mortality." Again, I don't think anybody on this list would be surprised by this.

The ISU cannot govern the training practices at rinks and can't dictate skater, coach and parent ambitions. The age change - while a good step in the right direction - may not be the total solution. Some of the responsibility must be borne by the feds - they need to assist with through coach / trainer education. Perhaps the ISU is considering other measures - some of which have been proposed here. I think increasing the value of skating skills, field moves and perhaps not allowing the more dangerous elements might help. But really the change must happen at the home rink. Yes, I remember Brian Orser's interview after Stephen Gogolev's win at the Junior Grand Prix final and I thought "how enlightened of him". Hope that attitude spreads!

I am putting the abstracts in a separate post so you can just skip them if you would like.

 

[Cutting the ice]

Sports Health
2018 Nov/Dec;10(6):532-537.
Epidemiology of Figure Skating Injuries: A Review of the Literature
Julie S Han , Ellen T Geminiani, Lyle J Micheli
Study conducted in the USA
Abstract
Context: As the popularity and technical demands of figure skating increase, so will the number of athletes presenting with sport-related problems.
Evidence acquisition: Searches were performed across PubMed from 1980 to 2017. The keywords searched were skating, skaters, incidence, and injuries. The search was limited to English-language articles and human participants. Relevant articles were cross-referenced.
Study design:Clinical review.
Level of evidence:Level 5.
Results from previous studies suggest an increase in incidence of figure skating injuries from 1982 to 2003. When combining all disciplines of figure skating, there is a similar proportion of acute and overuse injuries. Within disciplines, overuse injuries appear to be more common in singles skating, while acute injuries are more common in pairs skating, ice dancing, and synchronized skating. Lower extremity injuries are more common than upper extremity injuries in all disciplines, and pairs skating accounts for the majority of upper extremity injuries. Ankle sprains are the most common skating injury, and patellar tendinitis is the most common overuse injury across all disciplines. Stress fractures are the most common overuse injury in female singles skaters.
Conclusion: The predominance of overuse injuries in singles disciplines reflects their increasing technical difficulty, with more difficult jumps and longer training hours. Partner disciplines are more likely to involve acute injuries and upper extremity injuries due to high-risk throws and lifts. Emphasis should be placed on properly fitting skating boots, intrinsic foot and ankle strengthening, and lower extremity flexibility, which may prevent many of the common lower extremity and back injuries in figure skating.

Clin J Sport Med
2021 May 1;31(3):295-303.
Pediatric and Adolescent Figure Skating Injuries: A 15-Year Retrospective Review
Agnieszka D Kowalczyk, Ellen T Geminiani, Bridget W Dahlberg, Lyle J Micheli, Dai Sugimoto
Study conducted in the USA
Abstract
Objective: To analyze the characteristics of injuries sustained by young figure skaters who were evaluated at regional pediatric sports medicine clinics.
Design: Retrospective chart review (2003-2017).
Setting: Sports medicine clinics at a tertiary-level pediatric medical center.
Patients: Two hundred ninety-four figure skaters (271 female and 23 male). Age rage: 9 to 19 years. Mean age: 14.2 ± 2.3 years.
Interventions: None.
Main outcome measures: Mechanism of injury (acute vs overuse), injured body areas, diagnoses for most commonly injured body areas, and distribution of bone stress injuries.
Results: Eight hundred sixty-four figure skating-related injuries were identified. Approximately 68.9% were overuse and 31.1% were acute. In female figure skaters, the most frequently injured body areas were foot/ankle (29.6%), knee (19.3%), and back (15.8%). In male figure skaters, they were foot/ankle (25.4%), hip (16.4%), and knee (14.9%). Most common diagnoses at these body areas were tendinopathy (foot/ankle), extensor mechanism (knee), and posterior column bone stress injuries (back). All injuries to anterior knee structures, excluding bone contusions, were categorized as extensor mechanism injuries. About 11.8% of all injuries were bone stress reactions/fractures with the majority occurring at the back (42.2%), foot/ankle (32.4%), and lower leg (15.7%).
Conclusion: Most injuries sustained by figure skaters were overuse and occurred most commonly at the foot/ankle (29.6%), knee (19.3%), and back (15.8%). Approximately 1 in 10 injuries were bone stress reactions/fractures, and nearly 1 in every 3 skaters who presented with back pain was diagnosed with a posterior column bone stress injury. Health care providers who take care of young figure skaters need to maintain a high index of suspicion for overuse injuries, especially bone stress reactions/fractures.

Am J Sports Med
2003 Jul-Aug;31(4):511-7.
The incidence of injuries in elite junior figure skaters
Sanda Dubravcic-Simunjak 1 , Marko Pecina, Harm Kuipers, Jane Moran, Miroslav Haspl
Study conducted in Croatia
Abstract
Background: There has been rapid growth in the technical and physiologic demands made on skaters who perform more and more difficult jumps, spins, lifts, throws, and free skating movements.
Purpose: To investigate the frequency of injuries and overuse syndromes in elite junior skaters.
Study design: Questionnaire.
Methods: During four consecutive Junior World Figure Skating Championships and the Croatia Cup, we interviewed 236 female and 233 male skaters by questionnaire to determine the frequency of injuries and overuse syndromes.
Results: Fifty-nine of the female skaters (25%) and 65 of the male skaters (27.9%) reported sustaining acute injuries; 101 female (42.8%) and 106 male (45.5%) skaters reported overuse syndromes. Low back pain was reported by 19 female and 23 male skaters. The most frequent acute injury was ankle sprain. In singles female skaters, the most frequent overuse injury was stress fracture (19.8%), followed by jumper's knee (14.9%). In singles male skaters, jumper's knee (16.1%) was the most frequent injury, followed by Osgood-Schlatter disease (14.2%). More than 50% of injuries in young singles figure skaters involved overuse syndromes. Pairs skaters and ice dance skaters had a higher risk of acute injury than overuse syndrome because of falls from lifts and throw jumps.
Conclusions: Programs to improve postural alignment, flexibility, and strength, especially during the asynchronous period of bone and soft tissue development, should be instituted to prevent and reduce overuse syndromes.

 

[CelticRose22]

This.
The rule has not even entered into force fully. We are still in the transition period.

It will take at least 4, but preferably more years before we can see and analyze any effects, whatever those might be. This is if we take the topic seriously, of course.

I think it's probably closer to 10 years before we can see the full impact of this change

 

[Skating91]

I think it's probably closer to 10 years before we can see the full impact of this change

Maybe I'm smarter than the ISU guys because I know what will happen. Junior females will still attempt quads in junior events in order to put themselves in a better position to be picked for senior spots.

It would be better to just ban quads altogether for females.

 

[el henry]

Juniors can win all they want as juniors. Go juniors

And then when they are old enough to skate senior (personally I would like to see 17, but 16 is a good start), they can skate senior. Go seniors

I think the rule change was an excellent idea, I think it will improve the health of those who choose to aim for a career in seniors. But as everyone has said, we won't know for years yet, that is how one achieves reliable data.

 

[gkelly]

Juniors can win all they want as juniors. Go juniors

Which, as orzin notes, will only make the competition at the junior level fiercer.

So a lot will depend on whether each skater is focused on winning right now (at junior level), or on pacing themselves for a longer career in seniors. I think we'll see different skaters taking different approaches.

And then when they are old enough to skate senior (personally I would like to see 17, but 16 is a good start), they can skate senior. Go seniors

It will be 17 as of next season.

 

[Couch Expert]

It would be better to just ban quads altogether for females.

Probably they will. Considering the latest news about congress proposals about debilitation of technical side of sport by further removing jumps and combinations, allowing more repetitions etc. - I have no doubt that they will adopt this rule unanimously. It's the long and old trend of ISU congresses after all (4A and pairs quad throws low cost was very indicative sign btw).
And if/when Russians return - they will ban quads for women at last - both for juniors and seniors They don't doing it now exactly because current juniors participating in ISU competitions are more or less helpless with quads - and seniors do not have them at all. Noone cares about juniors health there - but when time comes they will use health argument full-stop - you can be sure of it.

 

[el henry]

Which, as orzin notes, will only make the competition at the junior level fiercer.

So a lot will depend on whether each skater is focused on winning right now (at junior level), or on pacing themselves for a longer career in seniors. I think we'll take different skaters taking different approaches.


It will be 17 as of next season.

I understand that some skaters may want to skate full out at juniors, and if they want to do that, I hope that they are doing it in a healthy and paced manner, but that's what they want to do, that's their problem and their team's problem. I don't see the point of an all out war for junior gold when senior gold is waiting in the wings, but that's me.

Pacing oneself for a longer career in seniors makes more sense to me (particularly since the high point of our sport, whether we agree with it or not, is the Olympics).

I agree with everyone who has said it will take years to evaluate. Conspiracy theories bore me. Actual research and data over years and years will be helpful.

 

[Couch Expert]

Forum members are mostly original fans with some skating background. They have not much effect to anything. Blaming the forum members about the rules leads to nothing but arguments and is no useful to anybody.

I have my suspicions that ISU officials are often read this forum at least - or even that some of the members here are in fact one of the ISU officials.

 

[Couch Expert]

I understand that some skaters may want to skate full out at juniors, and if they want to do that, I hope that they are doing it in a healthy and paced manner, but that's what they want to do, that's their problem and their team's problem. I don't see the point of an all out war for junior gold when senior gold is waiting in the wings, but that's me.

If they are ambitious (and who wouldn't if you are going into big sport and paying huge amount of money, time and health) they are practically forced to skate full out. And new age rule just aggravate these conditions because it raises level of competition in juniors (more years - more skilled athletes - harder to get titles and medals) AND complicates transfer to seniors (it's harder to get rating points). Without quads a junior women skater can often found herself in a situation when she can't transfer in seniors until 19 because she wouldn't get any GP events. And after 19 without TES advantage she can't compete with reputable PCS seniors and doomed to years of B-level tournaments. Who would want to continue career in these conditions?

 

[el henry]

If they are ambitious (and who wouldn't if you are going into big sport and paying huge amount of money, time and health) they are practically forced to skate full out. And new age rule just aggravate these conditions because it raises level of competition in juniors (more years - more skilled athletes - harder to get titles and medals) AND complicates transfer to seniors (it's harder to get rating points). Without quads a junior women skater can often found herself in a situation when she can't transfer in seniors until 19 because she wouldn't get any GP events. And after 19 without TES advantage she can't compete with reputable PCS seniors and doomed to years of B-level tournaments. Who would want to continue career in these conditions?

No, they are not forced to do so if they are "ambitious". That is an opinion, but not a fact.

We will see if the rule helps with some of the "blinded by shiny gold" teams who want to push young skaters too far too fast. Now, one year in, we do not have data and we have no idea.

And staying on topic with the age change, and not quads. But I will say that the opinion on quads and GP events is not supported by any events I have seen.

 

[jen84]

As Tara Lipinski said when the age changes came out, “Raising the age limit is a quick fix that will deny athletes a performance on the biggest stage, and ultimately not make a difference in stopping the abuse,” Lipinski tweeted. “These young athletes will still be skating under this broken system, you just won’t see them til they are 17.
I agree with her. You just won’t see them until they’re older. Some will burn out, some will get injured before they get a shot.

Now, different countries/cultures have different ideas of winning at all costs. Yes, they all want to win but for some, it’s more important for the glory of the country. And not every athlete dreams of an extended senior career — not all of them want to train like that forever. And who are we say they should? Someone wants to skate for pleasure, go for it, but it’s still a sport, and harder elements are going to be the big point bringers. The open scoring system encourages it.

As a far more committed gymnastics fan, trends in difficulty and ages of athletes comes and goes. Part that depends on the junior talent coming up. If the juniors fail to overthrow the current seniors (their job), then the current seniors make the team. I personally believe the removal of compulsory did far more harm to gymnastics than the age limit — I say that as someone who doesn’t like age limits.
Using the Russian women specifically, there is enough depth among the juniors and even novice category from what I’ve seen (I browse here and don’t read elsewhere), to continue to push the seniors. And as long as that talent continues, they are going to remain like that — quads or not. The quads are simply pushing the technical level of the sport to unfathomable limits.

Was the ISU right? I guess it depends on if you believe their motives.

 

[Mathman]

There is actually some precedent in children's sports about this issue. In U.S. little league baseball for instance there is a general consensus that if a boy starts training a curveball before the age of 13 he runs the risk of permanebt elbow or shoulder injury. (But other studies dispute this.) Even more important is the number of repetions of any pitch. Rules usually limit the total number of innings pitched to 80-100 in a season.

This protocol seems to be enforced voluntarily by schools, recreational leagues, agreement among coaches, etc., without any overall authority making decrees from on high. Of course there are probably plenty of youngsters who throw a ball against the side of the barn 1000 times a day after team practice, which adds the additional risk factor that they are not being taught proper technique with expert supervision. The minimum age for playing for a major league team is 18.

 

[Mathman]

As Tara Lipinski said...

Tara wore out her hip joints by age 16 by doing too many repetitions of the triple loop, especially the 3Lo-3Lo combo. She retired from the sport after a few years skaing in shows. She has had hip replacement surgery on both hips.

It is unclear to me wheather age limits for seniors will have much effect (except, as Tara points out, that we will never see the junior skaters whose careers are over before they begin.) The only solution that I can see is for parents, coaches, skating clubs and national federations to start insisting on changes. I fear that this will never happen; we are too much invested in procuring children, like trained monkeys, to provide entertainment for adults.

 

[Rebecca Moose]

or even that some of the members here are in fact one of the ISU officials.

omg how did you discover me so quickly

 

[throw_triple_flip]

If they'd not done something, i think figure skating's status as an Olympic sport may have been in some serious jeapordy (rightfully, perhaps).

It had to go up to 16 at least, purely for the consequences for doping. It was totally wrong that Kamila Valieva was allowed to skate after failing a doping test, and that only happened because she was under the age of responsibility. Which sends a message that doping is a-okay if it's done to a child. That's morally indefensible.

Russia may have a load of too young kids doing quads- but how many of them will even get to seniors now if the coaches (and system/culture) keep this up? Something's going to have to give eventually, but the lack of international competition means there is no incentive to change things yet.

The ISU can't really be held responsible for what's going on in skating in Russia, especially when they aren't even judging them in competition- they aren't even capable of rewarding/encouraging it at the moment.

If it really is that unethical there at the moment then that is entirely the fault of the system, the culture, the coaches and the parents that enable and perpetuate it. Stop trying to blame others.