Was the ISU right to increase age limits?

[icewhite]

I think the op is disingenious about their motives and the conclusion that the excessive quads amongst youngesters in Russia stem from the ban and the raise of the age limit is totally nonsensical.

However, maybe rather unrelated, I do think that the change of the age limit does not go far enough because it is not accomponied by enough other measures and that this sport continues to have a problem with its attention towards very young adults.
I don't think "it was like that in the past and it hurt nobody" is a good argument.
Because society has moved on, and this is actually a topic where I can see positive development.
There is now more care about these issues, more awareness that children and young teenagers (sorry for the stiff term, I don't know how to phrase it better) need more protection in some areas. We can see that well in bigger sensitivity when it comes to sexual exploition in movies, and yes, also in figure skating programs- what seemed cute in the earlier decades is now not seen as innocent anymore, because we know that it did indeed actually come with exploition behind the camera.
Also in sports there is a general bigger sensitivity to what sports and its accomponying aspects can do to people and their bodies. There is more awareness about long term health consequences in football, soccer, regarding brain damage, but also for instance eating disorders just happened in earlier times...
Also children were allowed to be beaten until not so long ago in many countries where it is now forbidden... etc.

But somehow there is not really a big discussion about the actually terrible consequences that all these jumps on ice have on the body. Here and there's some talk, but there is no huge resistance, no big discussion, and while I don't want to just forbid all quads and triple axels, not for everyone and not just for juniors, without thinking about other possibilities, it would be nice to see more experts actively working on solutions and measures. Because no, it is not normal to have like 30% of athletes with serious hip injuries once they are in their mid 20s. I struggle to find another sport I watch with such an amount of serious chronic injuries, that is not even injuries from accidents, but simple overuse.

 

[Skating91]

There is now more care about these issues, more awareness that children and young teenagers (sorry for the stiff term, I don't know how to phrase it better) need more protection in some areas.

Just call them children. That's what they are until age 18.

But somehow there is not really a big discussion about the actually terrible consequences that all these jumps on ice have on the body. Here and there's some talk, but there is no huge resistance, no big discussion, and while I don't want to just forbid all quads and triple axels, not for everyone and not just for juniors, without thinking about other possibilities, it would be nice to see more experts actively working on solutions and measures. Because no, it is not normal to have like 30% of athletes with serious hip injuries once they are in their mid 20s. I struggle to find another sport I watch with such an amount of serious chronic injuries, that is not even injuries from accidents, but simple overuse.

If the junior comps weren't broadcast around the world and people weren't allowed to be in attendance to watch, then the children along with their parents and coaches wouldn't feel compelled to perform these incredible acrobatic stunts. They aren't going to do it to an empty rink with no cameras and family/friends in attendance only.

There is no other answer apart from the banning of quads and triple axels in the women's competition and making the senior age limit 18.

Still, barely any females on the planet can perform quads or triple axels, yet traumatic injury has long been an issue in this sport all over the world.

The 17 year old age limit doesn't go far enough because 17 is still a child first of all, plus skaters are still incentivised to aim to 'peak' at age 17 when jumps will be easiest in senior competition so nothing really changes they will still put their body to the limit throughout the teenage years to be at their peak in their first senior year.[/QUOTE]

 

[gkelly]

If the junior comps weren't broadcast around the world and people weren't allowed to be in attendance to watch, then the children along with their parents and coaches wouldn't feel compelled to perform these incredible acrobatic stunts. They aren't going to do it to an empty rink with no cameras and family/friends in attendance only.

Actually, yes they are, as long as results in the competition affect whether they qualify for more important competitions that year or be in consideration for more opportunities the next year, when they will be older.

If you compare, on the one hand, a competition with judges and tech panel and scores and results but no spectators, vs. a show with spectators and TV coverage but no scores or results, which one do you think is going to encourage kids to attempt more difficult elements?

There is no other answer apart from the banning of quads and triple axels in the women's competition and making the senior age limit 18.

There are plenty of other answers. Do you want to discuss some, in this thread or elsewhere?

For example:
*Limit (but don't necessarily ban) the number of quads/triple axels that can be done in competition
*Change the well-balanced program requirements to include fewer jumps total
*Lower the base values for these elements so there is less incentive to include them (It would be tricky to have different scales of values for different competition levels, but if you want to discourage something for juniors and encourage it for seniors, that might be necessary)
*Introduce other kinds of jump difficulty so that skaters can earn points for difficult jumping skills without necessarily doing more than 3 in-air rotations at a time (I'd be happy to suggest some possibilities that are either currently undervalued or not rewarded at all but that would be interesting to see as regular options -- some of them might also tend to lead to injuries especially if overtrained, but more variety of jump skills might discourage overtraining the same kinds of skills and might favor a wider range of body types)

*Raise the base values of difficult non-jump elements so skaters can earn enough technical points to compete with quad jumpers even if multiple air rotations are not their forte
*Also, make sure that there are plenty of options for earning higher levels in spins (and lifts) that rely more on blade-based skills and do not require extreme flexibility, so that skaters who are naturally less flexible don't have to try to contort themselves into injury-producing positions in order to earn points

*Increase the values of positive GOEs so doing a simpler thing well can be worth as much as doing a really difficult move just adequately or less

*Increase the values of Program Components so that high-quality skating and performance skills will allow strong skaters and performers to compete successfully without including the hardest jumps

Etc.

Nevertheless, many skaters especially in women's singles are going to peak before they turn 18. Some of them will peak at a very high skill level. How can they maximize their own achievement and self-satisfaction in sport, and allow fans to appreciate their excellence, without being exploited while they're still minors?

 

[rain]

I think the op is disingenious about their motives and the conclusion that the excessive quads amongst youngesters in Russia stem from the ban and the raise of the age limit is totally nonsensical.

However, maybe rather unrelated, I do think that the change of the age limit does not go far enough because it is not accomponied by enough other measures and that this sport continues to have a problem with its attention towards very young adults.
I don't think "it was like that in the past and it hurt nobody" is a good argument.
Because society has moved on, and this is actually a topic where I can see positive development.

I couldn't agree more. About all of it.

The age limit change was a good start. I think 17 is a decent cut-off, as it will mean that all but a very rare few will have gone through puberty. And quite frankly the age limit should be adopted by all sports. I can't stand diving and skateboarding for this reason. It is unpalatable to me to watch 13-year-olds pushed into adult competition and pressure. There is no industry on the planet where this has ever had a good result (Hollywood and child stars come immediately to mind).

I think it's also worth noting that all of these supposed new pre-pubescent, pre-teen quad phenoms are competing right now without drug testing. With the country we're talking about that's a very real concern that has never been adequately addressed or punished.

With any sport there's a risk of injury, but there are certain things inherent in some of the jumping we're seeing that pretty much guarantees these little kids are going to permanently damage their bodies by their teens, if not before. It needs to be discouraged. Thank goodness we don't see the triple loop-triple loop much, as the result of drilling that combo was made evident by Tara Lipinski.

And I think it needs to apply to men as well.

Look at what previous generations of skaters can still do. A few years ago both Brian Boitano and Brian Orser got their triple axels back — they can still do it! Their bodies aren't completely broken. That's what we should expect from the sport and from coaching, not a brief flash in the pan that costs skaters their health — forever.

But I'm rambling...

There are plenty of other answers. Do you want to discuss some, in this thread or elsewhere?

For example:
*Limit (but don't necessarily ban) the number of quads/triple axels that can be done in competition
*Change the well-balanced program requirements to include fewer jumps total
*Lower the base values for these elements so there is less incentive to include them (It would be tricky to have different scales of values for different competition levels, but if you want to discourage something for juniors and encourage it for seniors, that might be necessary)

I'd be all over all of these suggestions. You can see that the last one works — I know some people don't like it, but it's why we're not seeing quads in pairs.

*Introduce other kinds of jump difficulty so that skaters can earn points for difficult jumping skills without necessarily doing more than 3 in-air rotations at a time (I'd be happy to suggest some possibilities that are either currently undervalued or not rewarded at all but that would be interesting to see as regular options -- some of them might also tend to lead to injuries especially if overtrained, but more variety of jump skills might discourage overtraining the same kinds of skills and might favor a wider range of body types)

*Raise the base values of difficult non-jump elements so skaters can earn enough technical points to compete with quad jumpers even if multiple air rotations are not their forte
*Also, make sure that there are plenty of options for earning higher levels in spins (and lifts) that rely do not require extreme flexibility, so that skaters who are naturally less flexible don't have to try to contort themselves into injury-producing positions in order to earn points

*Increase the values of positive GOEs so doing a simpler thing well can be worth as much as doing a really difficult move just adequately or less

*Increase the values of Program Components so that high-quality skating and performance skills will allow strong skaters and performers to compete successfully without including the hardest jumps

Etc.

Yup to all of these, as well.

 

[Crowdproud]

well, one thing that ISU has control over is to reduce the number of jumps/combos in the junior free skate, and instead have children compete both the choreo sequence and the step sequence. it would make for a better viewing experience, and it's more beneficial for the development of young athletes.

 

[Caliban]

are competing right now without drug testing.

You're simply lying, that's from December 2023:

https://olympics.com/ioc/news/communique-of-the-12th-olympic-summit :

It was emphasised that doping controls in Russia continue. This year, more than 10,500 samples from Russian athletes in and out of competition have been collected despite the extremely limited number of AINs taking part in international competitions. This means that Russia remains among the top-ten nations being tested. In addition, it was indicated that the ITA had conducted well over 400 out-of-competition tests on athletes with Russian nationality in 2023. Both blood and urine samples are transported with a strict chain of custody to multiple laboratories outside the country. Any adverse analytical findings are being actioned and are being monitored by WADA.

 

[el henry]

You're simply lying, that's from December 2023:

https://olympics.com/ioc/news/communique-of-the-12th-olympic-summit :

Somewhat off topic, but can I ask why you attached "Laughing" emojis to posts that are not funny? (post 22 for example)

Surely it would not be to laugh *at* someone's opinion in a sarcastic way, that would be cowardly, wouldn't it? Just like if someone laughed at this post, which is not meant to be funny, it would be cowardly or mistaken.

 

[Skating91]

Actually, yes they are, as long as results in the competition affect whether they qualify for more important competitions that year or be in consideration for more opportunities the next year, when they will be older.

If you compare, on the one hand, a competition with judges and tech panel and scores and results but no spectators, vs. a show with spectators and TV coverage but no scores or results, which one do you think is going to encourage kids to attempt more difficult elements?

I think raising the age to 18 and banning quads will allow children to just focus on the fundamentals. Very few international women actually have a stable or correct lutz for instance (the best skater in the world cannot jump lutz, the best European skaters invariably cheats on her lutz).

The reality is only a few females 17 or older in the entire world are capable of jumping a quad. So if the quad is basically not possible for a female skater 18 or older apart from the most freakish athletes in history, then having children battle it out jumping ultra-c in junior competitions risking injury, neglecting other elements serves no purpose.

There are plenty of other answers. Do you want to discuss some, in this thread or elsewhere?

For example:
*Limit (but don't necessarily ban) the number of quads/triple axels that can be done in competition

As discussed above if only a few senior age skaters on the planet can jump quads, then why not just ban them in juniors?

*Change the well-balanced program requirements to include fewer jumps total

No way this is an athletic competition first and foremost and jumps are one of the best and most objective ways of determining who is the best skater/performer.

*Lower the base values for these elements so there is less incentive to include them (It would be tricky to have different scales of values for different competition levels, but if you want to discourage something for juniors and encourage it for seniors, that might be necessary)

Already quads have base values that don't reflect their difficulty, but it doesn't stop female skaters attempting them.

*Introduce other kinds of jump difficulty so that skaters can earn points for difficult jumping skills without necessarily doing more than 3 in-air rotations at a time (I'd be happy to suggest some possibilities that are either currently undervalued or not rewarded at all but that would be interesting to see as regular options -- some of them might also tend to lead to injuries especially if overtrained, but more variety of jump skills might discourage overtraining the same kinds of skills and might favor a wider range of body types)

They've already elevated the sequence to level the playing field for the less competent jumpers.

*Raise the base values of difficult non-jump elements so skaters can earn enough technical points to compete with quad jumpers even if multiple air rotations are not their forte

This is just unfair to overvalue relatively simple elements.

*Also, make sure that there are plenty of options for earning higher levels in spins (and lifts) that rely more on blade-based skills and do not require extreme flexibility, so that skaters who are naturally less flexible don't have to try to contort themselves into injury-producing positions in order to earn points

Flexibility should be rewarded.

*Increase the values of positive GOEs so doing a simpler thing well can be worth as much as doing a really difficult move just adequately or less

This would be complete degradation of the sport. They would have to remove it from the Olympics. It just becomes a popularity contest.

*Increase the values of Program Components so that high-quality skating and performance skills will allow strong skaters and performers to compete successfully without including the hardest jumps

Already the officials wield too much power over results by massaging PCS.

 

[Couch Expert]

1) Do you have any written evidence that the ISU declared that the reason for raising the age limits was to prevent injuries?

Yes, I have.

Increasing the age limit to 17 years of age to qualify for entry to the Senior category allows the Junior athlete the time necessary to reach skeletal maturity decreasing risk of epiphyseal injury if training loads are modified during times of rapid growth

Source: https://www.isu.org/media-centre/press-releases/2022-4/29706-isu-faq-age-limit/file

2) Do you have statistics showing that there are more injuries among Russian skaters in the past two years than in any two-year period in the past?

People doesn't specifically gather full comprehensive statistics to prove any point they have. It's a task for special research. But the need for such research appears based on concerns people feel by judging what they see around. "There is no smoke without a fire" as they say. And for those who follows Russian skating closely it becomes obvious that the number of recent injuries among young skaters becomes more noticeable than it was before. Akatieva, Khromykh, Sadkova, Titova, Zhilina, Dvoeglazova, Kostyleva and many others (i don't follow male skating - but there are lot examples as well) - all of them suffered injuries this season. In fact, the whole fall of technical abilities of ladies in Russian "senior" competitions (i.e. from 14 y.o.) this season is due to the fact that majority of those who could show quads either lost them due to injuries or couldn't participate due to injuries as well. It was one of the reasons that RusFed invited so many novice skaters for jumping tournament btw.

3) Do you have statistics showing that injuries have increased in any other countries aside from Russia?

I don't and why I should? I suspect with rise of juniors technical skills in Japan and Korea - the rate of injuries raised as well there - but is it even needed to prove it as well? Isn't one country case is enough? Or do you imply that what happens with Russian children just is not important as long as they are out of general public eyes whereas other cointries wellbeing are more important because they pay their financial fees to ISU? From the beginning of this whole age raising plan it was evident that it was invented because of Russia, directed only on Russia and affect only Russia. More specifically - Russian ladies. In other countries young skaters didn't feel any changes because it was common practice to hold them in juniors until 17-19 years anyway long before the new rule since they just couldn't get enough rating scores to do anything in seniors. There were some exceptions (now retired Alysa Liu for example) - but it doesn't change big picture. And probably we would never see her in seniors with new rules anyway.
Therefore for consequences of the rule made to affect Russian junior women first and foremost - only Russian junior women statistics matters.

If I see fewer quadsters from this rule so be it.

Except there will be more quadsters (and injuries) than before. You just won't see them. That's the problem I have with this rule. It's invented to hide - not to solve. It fully abuses "If I don't see it - it doesn't exist" mentality. Disgusting.

 

[Couch Expert]

I've got an impression that this thread has a totally wrong title.
It should be: Your opinion about 11-14 year old quadsters in competitions not sanctioned by ISU.

You are saying it like ISU is responsible only for injuries suffered at international events and what happens with skaters outside it shouldn't be their concern (despite their rules intentionally directed to affect training regimes in national federations). What an irresponsible stance.

 

[gkelly]

Yes, I have.

Source: https://www.isu.org/media-centre/press-releases/2022-4/29706-isu-faq-age-limit/file

Thank you.

People doesn't specifically gather full comprehensive statistics to prove any point they have. It's a task for special research. But the need for such research appears based on concerns people feel by judging what they see around. "There is no smoke without a fire" as they say. And for those who follows Russian skating closely it becomes obvious that the number of recent injuries among young skaters becomes more noticeable than it was before. Akatieva, Khromykh, Sadkova, Titova, Zhilina, Dvoeglazova, Kostyleva and many others (i don't follow male skating - but there are lot examples as well) - all of them suffered injuries this season. In fact, the whole fall of technical abilities of ladies in Russian "senior" competitions (i.e. from 14 y.o.) this season is due to the fact that majority of those who could show quads either lost them due to injuries or couldn't participate due to injuries as well. It was one of the reasons that RusFed invited so many novice skaters for jumping tournament btw.

Do you think perhaps that Russia is doing this because 1) Russia has historically valued jump difficulty more highly than the ISU at large, and 2) they are developing their own tournaments to showcase the skills that they value during the period when they are not allowed to compete against the rest of the world?

I would not look to Russia, who make their own rules for domestic events, especially last year and this year when they have no international events, as evidence about anything to do with how the ISU rules affect ISU skaters in general. Russia is an exception, especially right now -- not to be emulated in this respect.

I don't and why I should? I suspect with rise of juniors technical skills in Japan and Korea - the rate of injuries raised as well there - but is it even needed to prove it as well? Isn't one country case is enough?

As mentioned, Russia is not a representative example especially right now.

Except there will be more quadsters (and injuries) than before. You just won't see them. That's the problem I have with this rule. It's invented to hide - not to solve. It fully abuses "If I don't see it - it doesn't exist" mentality. Disgusting.

Even if quads are not allowed in junior competition -- broadcast or not -- but are allowed in seniors, there will be younger teenagers practicing them at home.

Girls tend to peak in their jumping ability during mid-teens. For the talented ones with good technique, this can mean that all the triples will come easily to them at that age. They are likely to want to challenge themselves by attempting harder jumps, even if they are not allowed to include them in competition right then, if for no other reason than just to be able to say they did it and carry that knowledge with pride through the rest of their lives even when they can't do those skills any more.

Many of these girls will end up retiring before they're 18 -- if not because of injury, then because after their bodies change they can no longer do the triples that they used to do with ease, and/or because they are ready to move on and focus on college, earning a living, starting a family, etc. So those quads may never see the light of competition, but they will be happening in practice rinks, and these days maybe getting posted on social media as ways for kids to brag "Look what I did!"

Quintuple jumps are not allowed, but skaters do attempt them in practice and these days sometimes share the videos, just for the challenge.

(Adult skaters will do this too, whether it's an adult-starter posting about a first single loop or axel jump, or a former competitor boasting they were able to land a double axel again 20 year later, etc.)

Of course there's a lot less likelihood of overtraining when people are just working on something for personal pride.

On the other hand, though, if quads are allowed in senior competition, skaters who are looking forward to competing as seniors in the next couple of years will likely start training those quads at home a few years before they're eligible, in hopes that they will still be able to do it when they become eligible to include it in competition. If we're talking about multiple different types of quads that they hope to master and keep to use as seniors, then we would be looking at what we might consider overtraining. Less than we see from the Russian girls now, and probably starting further into the teens, but I guarantee you that serious competitors will not wait to attempt a single quad in practice until their 17th or 18th birthdays.
Yes, there's a risk of getting injured, or of losing those jumps to body changes before they're seniors, but they'd be a lot more likely to be able to jump quads as seniors if they had already started working on them a few years earlier.
Many coaches who are trying to develop senior competitors building from lower levels would likely encourage this.

Hopefully all coaches would also encourage skaters to train jumps in moderation, build up their strength, build up their basic skating skills, take care of their bodies in general, etc.

This doesn't appear to be a priority with a number of Russian coaches. That's a problem with those coaches more than with rules that allow difficult jumps.

The ISU can't police training methods worldwide, and they especially can't do much about Russia right now.

 

[rain]

You're simply lying, that's from December 2023:

https://olympics.com/ioc/news/communique-of-the-12th-olympic-summit :

I stand corrected. And I'm still not convinced given the years of state-sponsored doping and how they've responded to getting caught.

And by the way, I wasn't lying, I just didn't look it up and didn't know. Tone is important.

 

[Anna K.]

You are saying it like ISU is responsible only for injuries suffered at international events and what happens with skaters outside it shouldn't be their concern (despite their rules intentionally directed to affect training regimes in national federations). What an irresponsible stance.

I'm just saying that this thread is a lame trolling attempt with an aim to discredit ISU.
That's all.

 

[Rebecca Moose]

Yes, I have.

Source: https://www.isu.org/media-centre/press-releases/2022-4/29706-isu-faq-age-limit/file


People doesn't specifically gather full comprehensive statistics to prove any point they have. It's a task for special research. But the need for such research appears based on concerns people feel by judging what they see around. "There is no smoke without a fire" as they say. And for those who follows Russian skating closely it becomes obvious that the number of recent injuries among young skaters becomes more noticeable than it was before. Akatieva, Khromykh, Sadkova, Titova, Zhilina, Dvoeglazova, Kostyleva and many others (i don't follow male skating - but there are lot examples as well) - all of them suffered injuries this season. In fact, the whole fall of technical abilities of ladies in Russian "senior" competitions (i.e. from 14 y.o.) this season is due to the fact that majority of those who could show quads either lost them due to injuries or couldn't participate due to injuries as well. It was one of the reasons that RusFed invited so many novice skaters for jumping tournament btw.


I don't and why I should? I suspect with rise of juniors technical skills in Japan and Korea - the rate of injuries raised as well there - but is it even needed to prove it as well? Isn't one country case is enough? Or do you imply that what happens with Russian children just is not important as long as they are out of general public eyes whereas other cointries wellbeing are more important because they pay their financial fees to ISU? From the beginning of this whole age raising plan it was evident that it was invented because of Russia, directed only on Russia and affect only Russia. More specifically - Russian ladies. In other countries young skaters didn't feel any changes because it was common practice to hold them in juniors until 17-19 years anyway long before the new rule since they just couldn't get enough rating scores to do anything in seniors. There were some exceptions (now retired Alysa Liu for example) - but it doesn't change big picture. And probably we would never see her in seniors with new rules anyway.
Therefore for consequences of the rule made to affect Russian junior women first and foremost - only Russian junior women statistics matters.

Except there will be more quadsters (and injuries) than before. You just won't see them. That's the problem I have with this rule. It's invented to hide - not to solve. It fully abuses "If I don't see it - it doesn't exist" mentality. Disgusting.

 

[4everchan]

You're simply lying, that's from December 2023:

https://olympics.com/ioc/news/communique-of-the-12th-olympic-summit :

and what about this

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/olympics-russia-doping-tests-1.7057818

There has been testing but not as often as for other top athletes... So it's normal that many have raised that concern.

 

[TallyT]

Isn't one country case is enough? Or do you imply that what happens with Russian children just is not important as long as they are out of general public eyes whereas other cointries wellbeing are more important because they pay their financial fees to ISU?

No, it means it is a problem created by and kept for the benefit of the Russian Powers That Be. They don't care, if they did, they could do something about it.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

and what about this

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/olympics-russia-doping-tests-1.7057818

There has been testing but not as often as for other top athletes... So it's normal that many have raised that concern.

Голый спорт

Вчера, на фоне откровений Ша’Карри Ричардсон о резком переходе USADA на новую платформу для указания местонахождения (практически не отраженных в новостях), в ленте AP появилась информация о недостаточности тестирования российских спортсменов со стороны РУСАДА. Изучив статистику, автор указал...

t.me

"
Yesterday, information appeared in the AP feed (https://www.wfmj.com/story/50215463...rug-testing-in-2023-ahead-of-next-years-paris -olympics) about the insufficient testing of Russian athletes by RUSADA.

Having studied the statistics, the author pointed out that leading Russian athletes are rarely tested by RUSADA: swimmers Evgeniy Rylov and Kliment Kolesnikov - twice each, Evgenia Chikunova three times, fencers Sukhov and Glazkov once each. They gave statistics on gymnasts a little strangely, saying that “the five athletes who brought gold to Russia in the men’s and women’s team competition at the Tokyo Games were tested a total of nine times.” It’s strange, because out of the eight people who were in Tokyo, not five, but six were tested in 2023 (RUSADA tests were not taken by Dalaloyan and Ablyazin), and in total these six passed ten tests. Why they decided to write that five people passed nine (and this is true) is a mystery.

Against this background, the testing figures for American athletes are given, here I will give a quote:

Noah Lyles (7), Sha'Carri Richardson (6), Ryan Murphy (9) and Katie Ledecky (9) were tested twice or three times as often as their potential Russian opponents. Simone Biles has been tested four times in 2023, more than any of Russia's top gymnasts.

This is all true, if we take the testing numbers of Americans. I wonder, of course, who is considered “potential rivals from Russia” for Richardson and Lyles? If (what if!) Makarenko and Tkalich, then RUSADA tested them seven and five times respectively, i.e. Christina passed more tests than Sha'Karri. And Victoria Listunova passed only one test less than Biles.

But the main thing, as usual, is in the details.
Firstly, RUSADA statistics are valid until October, USADA statistics until December 7. Both statistics operate only and exclusively with national testing figures, without taking into account international ones, so the actual number of tests for each of the above athletes may differ, there may be more, but we don’t know how much.

But we know for sure (this is the second thing) that neither Rylov, nor Kolesnikov, nor Chikunova, nor Sukhov, nor any of our Olympic champions in artistic gymnastics are included in the registered testing pool of RUSADA (https://rusada.ru/upload /iblock/ee7/7ypsxaltt5rkw783lpk49i2tuyji593h/%D0%A0%D0%9F%D0%A2_Q3%202023.pdf). Of those mentioned in the AP material, only the fencer Glazkov is included in the expanded pool (https://rusada.ru/upload/iblock/099/axmwyqo164girjy5bgf9xy90er6x7fsv/РП_Q3 2023.pdf), where it is not necessary to indicate the mandatory hour “ window". Makarenko and Tkalich are included in the registered pool, so they have normal testing numbers. The rest, it turns out, were tested by RUSADA only at competitions, hence the modest indicators. And outside of competitions, they are checked by the international federations in whose pools they belong, but no one sees these numbers.

This is standard RUSADA practice - in 99% of cases, when an athlete is included in the testing pool of an international federation, they remove him from the national pool. USADA doesn't do that, they have all the stars in the national pool, so they have the opportunity to check them independently.

But, despite the obvious manipulativeness of the AP text, where these nuances, of course, are not listed, it points to the main thing - RUSADA definitely needs to select a list, albeit a very theoretical one, of potential participants in the Olympic Games in Paris, include them in the national registered pool and test them much more often . So that there simply could not be any basis for such comparisons.
"

 

[Couch Expert]

Do you think perhaps that Russia is doing this because 1) Russia has historically valued jump difficulty more highly than the ISU at large

I wouldn't be so sure about that. If ISU values PCS side of skating higher than TES one - they wouldn't level PCS with TES score constantly as their unwritten rule. It's not that Russia values jumps more - they just values efficiency and victories. And which fault is that jumps allows to win more certainly than anything else? It's ISU's rules fault.

2) they are developing their own tournaments to showcase the skills that they value during the period when they are not allowed to compete against the rest of the world?

I would not look to Russia, who make their own rules for domestic events,

It's suspicious why you're so focused on that only one particular tournament to prove your point tbh. Are you seriously thinking that Russian skaters specifically trained and jumped their quads this whole season using them in multiple others traditional national competitions - only for the sake of this new show tournament? Whether the jumping tournament existed or not - it would change nothing.
The whole course and trend to increase technical difficulty of skating in Russia started long before raising the age rule was even in plans (I would say after 2014). This course remained the same until now without changing - with old rules or new ones, after international ban or before it. ISU made new rules specifically to stop this Russian trend (first banning "all jumps in second half" advantage, then - cutting age of women with highest physiological peak for stable quads from important competitions) - declaring that presumably it was to save skaters from health consequences. And they failed miserably to achieve that declared goal. Basically showing that was the main point of this topic.

On the other hand, though, if quads are allowed in senior competition, skaters who are looking forward to competing as seniors in the next couple of years will likely start training those quads at home a few years before they're eligible, in hopes that they will still be able to do it when they become eligible to include it in competition. If we're talking about multiple different types of quads that they hope to master and keep to use as seniors, then we would be looking at what we might consider overtraining.

Why you are not considering much more obvious motivation (proved by real world data) to train quads as early as possible to achieve victories as early as possible (be it novice, junior or senior level) in cutthroat competitive environment? Where victory means among other benefits - financial support from federation even at novice level. Replacing it instead with some theoretical constructions which would work in some small fed environment - but not in the federation this rules changes were meant for in the first place? There are too many new novice and junior quadsters appearing for this theory (that new age limit rule would help in preventing health problems) to work.

 

[icewhite]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. If ISU values PCS side of skating higher than TES one - they wouldn't level PCS with TES score constantly as their unwritten rule. It's not that Russia values jumps more - they just values efficiency and victories. And which fault is that jumps allows to win more certainly than anything else? It's ISU's rules fault.


It's suspicious why you're so focused on that only one particular tournament to prove your point tbh. Are you seriously thinking that Russian skaters specifically trained and jumped their quads this whole season using them in multiple others traditional national competitions - only for the sake of this new show tournament? Whether the jumping tournament existed or not - it would change nothing.
The whole course and trend to increase technical difficulty of skating in Russia started long before raising the age rule was even in plans (I would say after 2014). This course remained the same until now without changing - with old rules or new ones, after international ban or before it. ISU made new rules specifically to stop this Russian trend (first banning "all jumps in second half" advantage, then - cutting age of women with highest physiological peak for stable quads from important competitions) - declaring that presumably it was to save skaters from health consequences. And they failed miserably to achieve that declared goal. Basically showing that was the main point of this topic.


Why you are not considering much more obvious motivation (proved by real world data) to train quads as early as possible to achieve victories as early as possible (be it novice, junior or senior level) in cutthroat competitive environment? Where victory means among other benefits - financial support from federation even at novice level. Replacing it instead with some theoretical constructions which would work in some small fed environment - but not for the federation this rules changes were meant for in the first place?

can you stop this nonsense?
my intelligence does really feel insulted

 

[el henry]

whole post
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I do not have (and will not install) Telegram.

Can you tell me if the original an article that was published somewhere else, or is it the opinion of a poster on Telegram? It is obviously an opinion piece, but I can't tell from where.