Was the ISU right to increase age limits?

[JeanA]

I have never heard about a domestic competition in Canada that is a jumping contest. I heard a lot of coaches talking about how important it is to pace yourself with quads, for instance Brian Orser has been very vocal about healthy training of young skaters.

Isn't Brian Orser the coach of that ten year old skater who was landing 3axels and quads? At ten? That same skater had to withdraw from Canadian Nationals this year at 19 because of chronic back issues. I'm not sure Orser's opinion regarding healthy training of young skaters is particularly legitimate, considering his history.

 

[4everchan]

Isn't Brian Orser the coach of that ten year old skater who was landing 3axels and quads? At ten? That same skater had to withdraw from Canadian Nationals this year at 19 because of chronic back issues. I'm not sure Orser's opinion regarding healthy training of young skaters is particularly legitimate, considering his history.

You are missing some very important information and making an ill judgment on Orser because of that.

Orser was Stephen Gogolev's coach when Gogo was very young. Stephen was landing pretty much all quads by age 12...
Orser was very serious about preserving the health of his skater by NOT letting him jump quads too much and too often. As a matter of fact, though Gogolev had a quad loop and quad flip, he never attempted them in competition. Orser made sure Stephen would also focus on skating skills. Orser also was aware that a growth spurt was coming.


Stephen grew very tall and lost all his jumps. His back issues are growth related. He is no longer with Orser but with Arutyunyan and it is with him that he is trying to recuperate his jumping abilities, not Orser.

Orser was also coaching Hanyu and was not in favour of the latter trying the quad axel because of health risks.
Orser mentioned many many many times how he favoured healthy and long careers as himself, as a former athlete, was aware of the toll of jumping those big tricks on the body.

You can use my friend google to find out many interviews about Orser's style of training. He is certainly not to be compared with some coaches who indeed do focus on quads and care very little about their athletes well-being.

 

[skatingguy]

Stephen grew very tall and lost all his jumps.

I think this has to be emphasized. Gogolev's back issues are related to growth issues that many young people struggle with when they add that much height in a short period of time. Gogolev was about 5'0" when he was winning the Junior Grand Prix Final, and is now 6'1".

 

[icewhite]

Except - it is? ISU have direct power and effect on national federations by, for example, banning their athletes from participation in international events. Which in turn changes these federations priorities making local competitions their main goal instead. Introduce new kinds of tournaments etc. Which makes training for winning these competitions as important as it was with international ones before.
Raising the age also have effect on national federations - making even local junior competitions more difficult to win and more important than they were before - because for many skaters now it would be the only competition they ever could participate before retiring (many skaters won't last beyond puberty - i.e. 16-17 y.o. - whether there is old age limit or new one). Therefore - encouraging to learn quads instead of discouraging it. If you have even speck of ambition to win something - and who would go into big sport without it? Ofcourse this effect is negligible or just absent in small feds with their "lazy" environment - but in cutthroat competitive ones with dozens contenders for each place - it's apparent and predictable IMO.

Because it was advertised (i.e. we were led to believe in a false assumption) that raising the age will discourage pushing kids to doing quads too early by parents and coaches. Whereas in fact it's just doesn't work like it was advertised at all. I repeat again - if the ISU were concerned about juniors health - they would ban quads instead. But with this roundabout reasoning behind this rule all I can see is blatant lie.

Basically you suggesting bury your head in the sand instead of addressing the issue directly. If you hide juniors from media - it won't solve any of their problems. All it does is that common people won't know anything about it. It's strange how your vision of "solving" the problem coincides with ISU way of doing it. Their whole raising the age solution reeked of reluctance to do anything substantial as well. Actually they did almost the same - just hid "former seniors-new juniors" with all their problems from eye of the general media focused on senior events only. If you can't see them - they don't exist. Problem solved, right?

I was trying to find an actual solution to the problems that exist, while you have built a ridiculous argument for the return of Russians to international competitions. As others have pointed out the Russian fed would not need to let such jumping tournaments including juniors happen. That's not the responsibility of the ISU.

 

[Skating91]

I would make the senior age 18+, and ban the broadcasting of any junior events. JGP and Junior World's should be behind closed doors just family and friends in attendance. Never in the past were junior events broadcasted throughout the world. Unfortunately this is a sport that attracts a lot of cyberbullies, and it seems the primary motivation for some people who watch this sport is to indulge in cyberbullying, spreading baseless rumours, making baseless accusations, nasty gossip, etc. Often children are the primary targets of these malicious campaigns. In any other sport these cyberbullies would be reported to the authorities and publicly doxxed.

If people want to follow the children's competitions they can still read the results online, but I would certainly ban the broadcasting of events throughout the world via platforms like Youtube. This serves no purpose since the children are paid a pittance for winning junior GP's or junior World's. It's exploitation first and foremost, plus setting these children up to cyberbullying victims. Or at the very least have some kind of waiver where parents and children decide whether they want to be broadcast to the world. Only those children and parents who have given permission to be filmed will be in the final broadcast. But even then, that probably makes the skaters vulnerable to exploitation. The feds will start picking juniors who allow themselves to be broadcast.

I don't know how anyone could possibly argue against this on moral or ethical grounds.

 

[Skating91]

Is the ISU sanctioning jumping competitions for children?

They do hold the JGP final alongside the seniors (some of those skaters are children themselves).

This is an attempt to monetise and profit off of a children's competition.

 

[Skating91]

I think the main reason the ISU finally decided to increase the age limit was so that another Valieva situation won't occur, where they can't treat a suspect in a doping case or another legal matter like an adult.

The age limit should be 18 in that case and they should have increased the age to 18 immediately, not this staggered approach.

The ISU did argue that it was physically and psychologically harming 15 and 16 year old's to compete at senior level, but then go ahead and allow 15 year old's to participate for two more seasons. Doesn't make sense does it because it was literally harming the children to allow them to participate.

 

[DancingCactus]

What's your point? That the ISU is evil and incompetent? If yes, just say what you mean.

I don't remember the reason for taking the staggered approach, I think they didn't want the skaters who were ready to transition from Juniors to suddenly fall into limbo. Not ideal, but nothing ever is.

 

[Skating91]

What's your point? That the ISU is evil and incompetent? If yes, just say what you mean.

Whoa! Evil is going a little too far. Judging edges on a lutz and assessing whether a landing rotated or not they are incompetent. Sure.

With regard to the age limit and protecting young skaters, the ISU are some what hypocritical and disingenuous.

I don't remember the reason for taking the staggered approach, I think they didn't want the skaters who were ready to transition from Juniors to suddenly fall into limbo. Not ideal, but nothing ever is.

They wouldn't be in limbo they would have just skated in junior tournaments for two more years. It would have been better for their mental and physical health, as well as extended their careers.

 

[SmileHappy34]

I am confused.bwhatvexactly is the difference in competing one week or 10 competition in two weeks verses 1 competition VA week away from competition and then competition. Don't the practice every day.
What about high school sports that compete weekly. Or the pro sports or other junior Olympic sports. I am sure they have the same injury issues.

I don't think they share their junior injuries as much
Then still call their Olympic competitors junior until 31 years of age. Like in skiing bobsled track and field or even equestrian or curling or hockey.

The bottom line is the athletes cheese to compete at a young age .
The parents allow and prepare the best way for injury that happens in sports.
How exactly is the ISU or any federation going to stop injury o. Tell a 10- 15 year old or to do quads or triples.

 

[gkelly]

Never in the past were junior events broadcasted throughout the world.

By "broadcasted throughout the world" do you mean online streaming that people around the world could see and comment on?

Television broadcasts within that network's country/broadcast area of Junior Worlds, maybe a handful of skaters per discipline skaters per discipline or clips thereof, sometimes more depending on the network, had been happening at least since the 1980s.
Skating fans sometimes traded tapes with other fans in other countries to get access to more coverage. In online discussion groups in the 1990s, there was discussion of these junior events. But the comments weren't directed toward the skaters themselves.

The US cameras following Sasha Cohen around at 2000 Junior Worlds certainly didn't help her there.

No, you didn't have tens of thousands of viewers around the world watching the same live junior event at the same time and posting comments. And the lower ranked skaters were rarely shown, except sometimes by their home country broadcasts.

 

[Couch Expert]

The speed limit is reduced to 40 mph at a particularly dangerous curve. Some fool drives the curve at 90 mph and wrecks his car and hurts himself. There will always be fools who drive too fast. But that fact supports imposing a speed limit on the curve, not removing it.

It's all sounds good and dandy - except for some mysterious reason number of traffic accidents raised after you put limit sign there. Maybe there is something wrong with the sign after all? Or we just should ignore the statistics and feedback because theory is more important than real world data?

 

[gkelly]

It's all sounds good and dandy - except for some mysterious reason number of traffic accidents raised after you put limit sign there. Maybe there is something wrong with the sign after all? Or we just should ignore the statistics and feedback because theory is more important than real world data?

Do you have actual statistics to go by? Or just anecdotal information?

 

[el henry]

It's all sounds good and dandy - except for some mysterious reason number of traffic accidents raised after you put limit sign there. Maybe there is something wrong with the sign after all? Or we just should ignore the statistics and feedback because theory is more important than real world data?

Cool hypothetical, but not applicable.

Number one: Where are the numbers? Do we have the studies over years and years and years at the traffic curve?

Number two: Variables. Accounting for all the variables, all the reasons for accidents, the weather, the cars,

Bringing it back to skating: Certainly one poor kid whose parents and coach are blinded ( "We're so rough, we're so tough, we've got what it takes, hoo-hah, hoo-hah." ), or two poor kids, or three poor kids, doesn't support bupkis. The fact that they have incompetent coaching or overboard parenting isn't the ISU's fault.

Stand by what I said.

 

[Couch Expert]

Do you have actual statistics to go by? Or just anecdotal information?

Did you watch Jumping competition mentioned in the first post? There were lot of 11-14 y.o. new quadsters - not only Kostyleva who suffered injury. What I meant by "traffic accident" is not only that particular injury. It's the whole system of training enabling such injuries now or in future. For example other 12.y.o. phenom Margarita Bazyluk - who jumped staggering amount of clean quads during three days of competitions including jaw dropping 4S-eu-4S combination https://www.youtube.com/shorts/7mhsb4NGbiY It's impossibe to get to this level without huge amount of quads repetitions in training - highly likely even more than Kostyleva jumped before tournament. Especially if you consider that Bazyluk is from Tutberidze school. Even if she didn't suffer any injuries there - it's only matter of time. Accumulated damage from all these quads inevitably leading to health problems in close future - it's what I call "traffic accidents" as well.
However it's not only product of couple famous schools. There were lot of other unknown quadsters from unknown coaches/schools too. It's result of the whole system of training there working for some time already - which is not going to stop. Which leads not only to many quadsters among young girls - but there were lot of young boys-multiquadsters with very stable quad jumps. Which was unthinkable just couple of years before. Before it was more like experiment of one school who was lucky to find couple of unique jumping talents. Now it's the whole system of producing quadsters from early age affecting average skaters of unknown coaches in provincial towns. And for some mysterious reason it all started after new age limit was introduced.
You can argue that it's just coincidence and has nothing to do with new rule at all. But my point is that declared "deterrence" function of new age limit is not working. Moreover - the declared purpose of this rule was a lie from the beginning. You can't stop progress like that and they knew it. Due to this rule though common people probably will never see all these quadsters in seniors because they couldn't survive until that with this level of stress to body. And I suspect it was the main purpose of the rule change. Not to solve the problem. Just hide it.

 

[gkelly]

1) Do you have any written evidence that the ISU declared that the reason for raising the age limits was to prevent injuries?

I know people have said that, but it may have been only fans or journalists or even coaches who were just speculating about what they personally thought might reduce injuries or about what they thought the ISU's reasoning might be. There were also many other rationales discussed for changing age rules over the years. But what was it that finally prompted the ISU to make the latest change? Was injury included in any written explanations for the change?

There have always been injuries among young skaters regardless of the age limits. When there was less worldwide coverage of the sport, fans may have been less aware. But there was certainly concern about young skaters in the past. ~20 years ago, it was more about triple loop combinations than quads, especially for the girls, although there were some quad attempts even then, most of which never made it past practices at home rinks.

2) Do you have statistics showing that there are more injuries among Russian skaters in the past two years than in any two-year period in the past?

3) Do you have statistics showing that injuries have increased in any other countries aside from Russia?

I.e., countries that have actually been allowed to send skaters to ISU competitions in the past two seasons (although the reason why Russians have not been allowed has nothing to do with figure skating per se).

Without that data, you're just speculating and relying on anecdotal evidence.

Same as anyone who speculated that changing the age limits by itself would reduce injuries. It was pretty clear even years ago that that change alone would not have that effect, for anyone who thought it through carefully -- which may or may not have included the decisionmakers at the ISU.

 

[Anna K.]

I've got an impression that this thread has a totally wrong title.
It should be: Your opinion about 11-14 year old quadsters in competitions not sanctioned by ISU.

 

[Spiralgraph]

If I see fewer quadsters from this rule so be it. Quads are great when performed by technically capable legal adults. Anything else is very risky and inviting trouble and severe injury on children.
You can whine and complain all you want, but I doubt TPTB are going to go backwards and change the age requirements. The ISU and the IOC don't want another debacle like at the last Olympics. Time to move on.

 

[Skating91]

If I see fewer quadsters from this rule so be it. Quads are great when performed by technically capable legal adults. Anything else is very risky and inviting trouble and severe injury on children.
You can whine and complain all you want, but I doubt TPTB are going to go backwards and change the age requirements. The ISU and the IOC don't want another debacle like at the last Olympics. Time to move on.

Even if the skater at the centre of it was 19 rather than 15 it wouldn't have changed anything regarding the team event or medals, and I suspect CAS would have let a 19 year old in the same circumstances perform for the reasons c) and d).

2) On the basis of the very limited facts of this case, and after consideration of the relevant legal
issues, it has determined that no provisional suspension should be imposed on the Athlete due
to the following exceptional circumstances:

a) The Athlete is a “Protected Person” under the World Anti-Doping Code (WADC);

b) The RUSADA Anti-Doping Rules and the WADC are silent with respect to provisional
suspension imposed on protected persons, while these rules have specific provisions for
different standards of evidence and for lower sanctions in the case of protected persons;

c) The Panel considered fundamental principles of fairness, proportionality, irreparable harm,
and the relative balance of interests as between the Applicants and the Athlete, who did not
test positive during the Olympic Games in Beijing and is still subject to a disciplinary
procedure on the merits following the positive anti-doping test undertaken in December
2021; in particular, the Panel considered that preventing the Athlete from competing at the
Olympic Games would cause her irreparable harm in these circumstances;

d) The CAS Panel also emphasized that there were serious issues of untimely notification of
the results of the Athlete’s anti-doping test that was performed in December 2021 which
impinged upon the Athlete’s ability to establish certain legal requirements for her benefit,
while such late notification was not her fault, in the middle of the Olympic Winter Games
Beijing 2022.

The entire circumstances around this was so strange, just the delays in testing, delays in notifying the athlete, timing of waiting until the completion of the team event, it wasn't a positive sample from the actual event itself, age of the athlete, the athlete was the gold medal favourite, it was such a perfect storm that would never happen again in the history of the Olympics or any major event, that to rearrange age rules to avoid this happening again would be so bizarre. It would easier to just have some kind of contingency plan in place for the lab to test samples within the 20 day limit.

The age limit was increased ostensibly to lessen injuries, but the fact they allowed 15 and 16 year olds to put their short and long term mental and physical health at great risk for a further two seasons makes me skeptical about the true motivations.

I think its was more about levelling the playing field since it's harder for girls 17 and over to jump quads compared to 15 and 16 year olds. It's a little like motor racing if one team starts to dominate they might make illegal some of the aerodynamic innovations the leading team has in order to bring the field closer together to improve the show.

My personal opinion is that senior competitions should be only for skaters older than 18. I would also ban the broadcasting of junior events so that these children aren't glorified by the public, aren't encouraged to take unnecessary risks, to protect them from the scourge of cyberbullies in this sport.

 

[JeanA]

Television broadcasts within that network's country/broadcast area of Junior Worlds, maybe a handful of skaters per discipline skaters per discipline or clips thereof, sometimes more depending on the network, had been happening at least since the 1980s.

One of my favorite tapes I made back in the 80s had Midori Ito's debut at Junior Worlds which I think was 1982. She created an absolute sensation there. So much publicity.

Broadcasting juniors has been going on forever and to now call for banning it seems silly to me. You get to see the up and coming generations way back when before they were stars. Like Michelle Kwan before anyone ever heard of her. Let's not get carried away here.