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Thread: Ideas for how to rescore figure skating?

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by el henry View Post
    What is stopping everyone from doing perfect spins, then? Displaying wonderful edges and beautiful control? Cause, ya know, it’s so darn easy
    Of course, many things are hard. I think that the system rewards those elements roughly proportional to their difficulty, taking into account risk.

    There are a lot of things I don't like watching either, but are (and probably should be) rewarded. For example, I like the pacing of some of the 6.0 programs better, when skaters weren't penalized for periods of less difficult choreography. While I think that can make for a better overall performance, if someone is doing more difficult choreography and transitions, that has to be rewarded whether it makes me enjoy the program less or not.

  2. #122
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    A good solution would be to bring back compulsory figures. That would weed out the less skilled skaters and then we can reward the risk taking skaters that want to advance the sport out of the group of truly skilled skaters that remain after the figures. If it bores people, just don't televise the figures portion. Hardly any skating is televised live anymore anyway. That way everyone is happy, jump fans and skating fans.

  3. #123
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    Or have a skating skills competition phase that is more fun to watch than school figures and more relevant to freeskating skating skills (i.e., edges and turns performed at speed on the whole ice surface, probably to music), but without jumps and spins.

    Maybe something similar to a solo Rhythm Dance, with a required pattern and a leveled step sequence, plus a couple of other edge-based skills.

    Whether interpreting the music should count for much or anything in this program could be up for debate. It would please the fans who like artistic skating most and not so much those for whom artistic scoring detracts from the validity of the sport as sport.

    But the Skating Skills component should make up a big part of the score, along with the other components as applicable. And then skaters who can't score well in that phase would not advance.

    Or my dream is to have a Skating Skills program, with music; a Spins program without music performed on half ice (men's event on one end, women's on the other); and a Jumps competition without music, probably each skater getting the ice for 2 minutes (or similar time limit) to execute each of 3 or 4 required spin elements or 4 or 5 required jump elements, with second chances allowed on the jumps within the time limit.

    If the Spins and Jumps are performed as isolated elements and scored on base value and GOE (including bullets for entries and exits) only, then skaters would be free to relax and do whatever they want between elements to catch their breath -- even go to the boards and drink water, etc.

    Or they could be performed as non-music programs and also be scored on PCS, except for IN obviously if there is no music.

    Give small medals for the top finishers in each of these disciplines, and then take a combined score (or factored placements) for these preliminary rounds to determine a smaller group of skaters to advance to the well-balanced freeskate final, which would be the most prestigious medal.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joekaz View Post
    A good solution would be to bring back compulsory figures. That would weed out the less skilled skaters and then we can reward the risk taking skaters that want to advance the sport out of the group of truly skilled skaters that remain after the figures. If it bores people, just don't televise the figures portion. Hardly any skating is televised live anymore anyway. That way everyone is happy, jump fans and skating fans.
    Is the purpose of that to ensure talented skaters stand atop the podium, or that we see more programs with high quality skating? If it's the latter, that probably wouldn't happen. A lot of the good figures ladies didn't exhibit the same grace and artistry during their programs. Kira Ivanova, who competed against Witt, did well in figures but you'd never know she was a talented skater if you watched her competitive programs. It also made the competitions confusing for casual fans when they couldn't understand how someone who does well in both televised segments still doesn't win because of a part that they didn't watch.

  5. #125
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    A lot of these ideas make no sense in the modern figure skating world.
    Figures were ditched for a reason, I doubt bringing then back would help.

    I see nothing wrong with the way the competitions and programs are structured, but if people really have a thing against technical supremacy trumping artistry then bumping up the value of PCS seems like a step in the right direction.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Is the purpose of that to ensure talented skaters stand atop the podium, or that we see more programs with high quality skating? If it's the latter, that probably wouldn't happen. A lot of the good figures ladies didn't exhibit the same grace and artistry during their programs. Kira Ivanova, who competed against Witt, did well in figures but you'd never know she was a talented skater if you watched her competitive programs. It also made the competitions confusing for casual fans when they couldn't understand how someone who does well in both televised segments still doesn't win because of a part that they didn't watch.
    Since it is a competition, ensuring talented skaters are at the top should be the priority. The judging confuses the public far more than compulsory figures ever did. Lol

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miller View Post
    I like this idea.

    A couple of questions. Would 10.0 be the highest TES value - why not allow 10.something, or even 11.something - the skater's got 11 out of 10! For the difference it makes I think this would be OK, plus presumably like in 6.0 you'd be announcing the scores separately so that you can compare one judges technical or performance score with another.

    Also, presumably you would have scaling in the SP, this time out of 55 TES rather than the 110 for the LP. However you would have to divide the final total by 2 so that it's half the value of the LP. Alternatively why not have the SP out of 10, and the LP out of 20, it works fine for ski-jumping 'style marks', so 20 would be OK for TES/PCS in LPs, plus no need for some strange division that people might not quite understand.
    Thanks for liking the idea!

    Conceptually, the max score of a 10.0 in TES is in place primarily so that PCS is weighted equally to TES at all times. If there are skaters that achieve above a 10.0 in TES, then their scores will be used to upgrade what the following year's average of the top 10 scores will be. This will effectively increase what a 10.0 means in TES for the following year. It's sort of like how it worked in the old system, where a 10.0 in TES meant the best of the best during that period, and then as the sport evolved, achieving the same 10.0 gets harder.

    Yep, there would be scaling in the SP to be half the points of the LP. So the SP would be multiplied by a factor 1 and the LP would be a factor of 2. No need for division since that can lead to complications and rounding errors.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by draqq View Post
    Conceptually, the max score of a 10.0 in TES is in place primarily so that PCS is weighted equally to TES at all times. If there are skaters that achieve above a 10.0 in TES, then their scores will be used to upgrade what the following year's average of the top 10 scores will be.
    But what happens this year if multiple skaters exceed the score that was set at 10 based on last year's scores? Do they all get 10.0 with no distinctions between someone who was just slightly over the maximum (10.01) and someone who was significantly over (14.59)?

    Or do they actually get scores higher than 10?

    In the former case, PCS would end up deciding medals whenever several top skaters as a group raise the bar in a new season. Sometimes small differences in PCS would override larger deserved differences in TES.

    In the latter case, TES would no longer be capped at the same limit as PCS.

    Either way, and not only at the top of the standings, there would likely be more ties as TES scores would lose two significant digits at both front and back (e.g., 8.5 rather than 85.53).

    Of course one could argue that the judging is not really accurate to two decimal places and it would be more honest to tie skaters who are that close than to make distinctions that can be attributed to rounding effects

  9. #129
    FigureSkatingPhenom draqq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    But what happens this year if multiple skaters exceed the score that was set at 10 based on last year's scores? Do they all get 10.0 with no distinctions between someone who was just slightly over the maximum (10.01) and someone who was significantly over (14.59)?

    Or do they actually get scores higher than 10?

    In the former case, PCS would end up deciding medals whenever several top skaters as a group raise the bar in a new season. Sometimes small differences in PCS would override larger deserved differences in TES.

    In the latter case, TES would no longer be capped at the same limit as PCS.

    Either way, and not only at the top of the standings, there would likely be more ties as TES scores would lose two significant digits at both front and back (e.g., 8.5 rather than 85.53).

    Of course one could argue that the judging is not really accurate to two decimal places and it would be more honest to tie skaters who are that close than to make distinctions that can be attributed to rounding effects
    I see what you mean. The main sticking point for this system would be that TES would be capped at 10.0. The PCS would be the deciding factor if multiple skaters achieve a TES score past the threshold for a 10.0.

    Some countermeasures could be implemented. I suppose the better option would be to keep a record of top 10 highest TES scores overall regardless of the year (excluding any years where the BV and GOE were scaled quite differently), and use that as the stick for what a 10.0 in TES is. Or if we're being more stringent, just have the 10.0 scaled to whatever THE highest TES score was. I believe that was Trusova's 86.96 TES from last year's Junior Worlds free skate.

    And if we're being EVEN MORE strict, we can set the 10.0 in TES to be 10 points (or some percentage) above the highest TES score (or the original idea of an average of the top 10 scores) to leave some buffer room. However, that would mean the 10.0 would be extremely rare to achieve.

    At any rate, if the ISU feels like it, I suppose they can come in and set the threshold for a 10.0 as they like mid-season and change things, but I feel like that's not particularly fair either.

  10. #130
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    I didn't hear this much hand wringing and complaints when skaters were phoning in 6 triple programs with poor step sequences and easy spins. For several seasons and until retirement mind you. As soon as the judges started handing out level 2's and 3's StSq fairly or unfairly to Eteri girls all of a sudden fast and dynamic footwork are important. TBF Eteri's current crop of girls don't have good step sequences. I think Zagitova is pretty good but the 3A are just not up to standard. The only one in the ladies whose step sequences I actually like are Medvedeva's.

  11. #131
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    For me, ladies aren't the problem. If Trusova lands 3 or 4 quads in addition to several 3-3 combinations, she kind of deserves the lead, I think. Even though I'm not a fan of her skating. If she messes up 2 quads, which can happen after all, then it's Kostornaia's chance to beat her with just 3As and artistry. But the thing with Tutberidze students is, even if they mess up their quads/3As, they still have several clean 3-3 combinations to make up for that.
    The men on the other hand... they fall on their first jumps and instead of saving a good impression of the program, they will continue to attempt (too) difficult elements. Men's skating is just a mess right now. I really wish that falls on any element would give zero points and a deduction. So maybe they can afford one risky element, but not 3 or 4 or 5... I don't even care to watch the men's event anymore and it used to be my favorite.

  12. #132
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    I think, first of all, there needs to be periodic re-factoring of PCS. Otherwise, as long as PCS is capped and TES isn't, TES is eventually going to be the only thing that matters, which is kind of where we are right now. I think there should be different factoring for the short program and the long, which would address the need some see for technical and artistic programs. For the short, leave it like it is now--.8 for ladies, 1.0 for men. For the long, make it 1.0 for ladies, 1.2 for men. As technical abilities increase, the factors should increase, too. Also, PCS needs to be reduced to three components: skating skills, performance and composition. Interpretation can be a factor in performance and transitions can be a factor in composition.

  13. #133
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    I think falls should be penalized more severely. I would give out a -2 deduction for each fall (or the element should receive zero points if the base value is less than 2, like a single jump)

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenaj View Post
    I think, first of all, there needs to be periodic re-factoring of PCS. Otherwise, as long as PCS is capped and TES isn't, TES is eventually going to be the only thing that matters, which is kind of where we are right now.
    Well, that was more/less a case years ago and i complained about it too, but that isn't the case right now. Because ISU removed one jumping pass from the free and with no repetition quad rule, you can check for yourself to see that components score in men FS are generally higher now than scores for the elements. For Boyang or Sasha TES score is higher, but taking the whole competition into account, we can say that TES and PCS are involved equally in the final scores nowadays.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    Well, that was more/less a case years ago and i complained about it too, but that isn't the case right now. Because ISU removed one jumping pass from the free and with no repetition quad rule, you can check for yourself to see that components score in men FS are generally higher now than scores for the elements. For Boyang TES score is higher, but taking the whole competition into account, we can say that TES and PCS are involved equally in the final scores nowadays.
    Looking at the 2019 Worlds men's freeskate scores, it seems that 13 skaters earned higher TES than PCS, and 11 earned higher PCS.

    The short program was also about evenly split between higher TES and higher PCS.

    The tilt toward higher TES is stronger in the upper part of the standings. Some of that is because the guys who placed higher generally skated cleaner, but the other part is that they were generally trying more/harder quads and in at least the top 2 cases racking up more TES points than the maximum number of PCS points available.

    Yes, a lot of that TES advantage also came from GOE. If you want to say that more of most skaters' scores came from the judging panel (GOEs plus PCS) than from their base values, especially at the top of the standings, I wouldn't dispute that.

  16. #136
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    I don't see why people are so keen to increase the value of PCS compared to reweighting non jump elements. Sure, keep the jumps valued as they are, because they're hard to do, but also reward complex step sequences or spins. Some of Satoko's step sequences are probably out of Sasha's reach for this year, even if she tried; Sasha's jumps are permanently out of Satoko's reach, so why not reward both sorts of skills? Wouldn't it be exciting to see different types of high-valued elements?

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Looking at the 2019 Worlds men's freeskate scores, it seems that 13 skaters earned higher TES than PCS, and 11 earned higher PCS.

    The short program was also about evenly split between higher TES and higher PCS.

    The tilt toward higher TES is stronger in the upper part of the standings. Some of that is because the guys who placed higher generally skated cleaner, but the other part is that they were generally trying more/harder quads and in at least the top 2 cases racking up more TES points than the maximum number of PCS points available.

    Yes, a lot of that TES advantage also came from GOE. If you want to say that more of most skaters' scores came from the judging panel (GOEs plus PCS) than from their base values, especially at the top of the standings, I wouldn't dispute that.
    I was looking at the COC results, the most recent one. And i don't see how other skills beside the fourth rotation are not rewarded. I don't think quadsters are more 'appriciated' in the current system comparing to the other skaters (and quadsters are not only Yuzuru, Nathan and Sasha who are doing much more than the quads btw). Not after the rules are changed. So, I think the current 'rewarding system' in men is more/less balanced.

  18. #138
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    On paper I feel the current scoring system is okay
    The problem is that the overwhelming majority of PCS is highly subjective and open to personal interpretation and opinion.
    It is very hard to put a score on something so subjective and I do not agree it should be given any more weight than it already is.
    In my opinion boosting a skater's PCS to hold them up is rampant enough, why help to make that worse?

  19. #139
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    So, I think that things really do need to change. What I think is fair would be the following

    1- Lowering base values by a point for quads

    2- GOE I find GOE incredibly subjective even though there is protocol for it. There is no way that the same jump can go from -2 to +3. All score sheets should be reviewed by a committee at every ISU event and the committee may question, suspend, fire, or reprimand judges for clearly not following the protocol

    3- PCS although subjective should be multiplied by 1.5-1.7 to add to the overall score. This IMO will boost the skaters that can actually SKATE vs the powerhouse jumpers that rack up all the quads and win because no one can touch them with PCS scores as they differ by usually scores less than 1 quad BV combo. This is figure skate, its a complete package sport and right now I feel its too TES focused. There is a reason there are only one hand full of skaters that have very high PCS scores AND TES scores.. its very very difficult to have a program thats is difficult in transitions, footwork, interpretation etc and to have all the big jumps aswell. Boyang Jin was lights out technical skater when he won that bronze medal at worlds a few years ago. Now his programs have immensely improved but his TES scores are not even close to what they were before. The artistic part of skating is over looked right now which is unfortunate. The only problem is that PCS is so subjective. There needs to be stricter guidelines that get over looked by that same commitee that would look over the score sheets on the GOEs. Interpretation etc can all be subjective but I feel skating skills etc could be a little more concrete and not so subjective. How much % of transitions were on 1 foot, how much 1 ft vs 2 foot skating is there, how often is there a change of direction, what kind of turns etc, advanced or basic body movement etc.

    I feel these changes would not only make the system more fair but it still rewards the skaters for what they are doing. You can still get the points for quads and difficult combos even with a point BV less than now, while enabling other skaters that are far superior in edges, footwork etc to gain ground and keep things close and give them a chance to win events. A real good example of this would of been this year Skate Canada Rika Kihira losing to Trusova based on TES only. Rika had an absolutely stunning program and her skating is on another planet vs Trusova but she still lost based only on TES marks.

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