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Thread: 2019 Judging and Tech calls discussion

  1. #161
    Medalist macy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Skates View Post
    Its not unintuitive, in fact many young skaters will jump this way when they first begin, I'd say its more intuitive than a normal toeloop. Its just drilled out of skaters at a young age, because coaches know how big of a no-no it is. Toe-axels are what the ISU has in mind when using the term pre-rotation. Because the skater is literally rotating pre placing their blade on the ice.
    i was actually taught a toe axel when i was learning a 2T at a young age, and it ruined a lot of stuff down the road for me. i had to fix the entire jump which took MONTHS of drilling it day in and day out because i had such a bad habit. a toe loop when done correctly is an entirely different jump than what i was taught. also as a result, i could not ever for the life of me do toe combos. it really speaks volumes what learning wrong technique can do to a skater and how it creates so many more problems down the road. toe loop combos are the easier combo vs a loop, and it was the complete opposite for me because i was taught wrong.

    PSA: coaches, please don't be lazy with your young skaters. take the time to teach them the correct way when they first learn.

  2. #162
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    Let me give a new point of view on the topic of prerotations and judging:

    I agree that there is no universally accepted definition of what a good/bad technique is. There is also no rule which would explicitly say that Lutzes and flips should have no more than 90 degrees of prerotation. Therefore we shouldn't blame the tech panel nor the judges for not penalizing excessively prerotated jumps.

    However, when I look at slow motion of a Lutz with <90 degrees of PR and then a Lutz with 180 degrees of PR, I just can't help myself – the difference between the two jumps is just too big to be ignored in terms of scoring, imo. Therefore I would be happy if the rules changed to take prerotation into account.

    After all, rules are not given forever, they are made by people. If majority of people in ISU came up to a conclusion that only rotations done completely in the air should be rewarded, the rules would be changed.

    On the other hand, if the ISU decides to change the rules so that (for example) more rotations are worth less points (let's say 10 points for a 1T, and only 1 point for a 4T), then it is totally legitimate as well. All rules are fine as long as they are followed. It's just that some rules can make a sport more interesting or enjoyable then other rules.

    I happen to love Lutzes with perfect toe-pick and little to no prerotation. That's why I hope the rules will be changed to reward such Lutzes.

    If someone prefers Lutzes with 180 degrees of PR and "full blade take-off", I can't blame them for wanting to change the rules so that Boyang's Lutzes are worth zero points.

    Each to his own.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenda358 View Post
    However, when I look at slow motion of a Lutz with <90 degrees of PR and then a Lutz with 180 degrees of PR, I just can't help myself – the difference between the two jumps is just too big to be ignored in terms of scoring, imo. Therefore I would be happy if the rules changed to take prerotation into account.
    But we can't say 'prerotation' is not taken into account. The only time i heard British Eurosport commentators were using the term prerotation was for a skater who is getting two or three GOE points less than other top skaters on the same jumps, which is reflected as more than one point loss per jumping element in total scores. Yes, underrotation can cost you more than 2 points per jump and if you need to choose it is a little less costly to pre-rotate than to underrotate, but 'prerotation' the way you defined it (which is not necesseraly the right way) will also cost you some points due to the existance of GOE bullets, because more you 'prerotate' the whole jump will lose more in general quality. Also, because of that, components (especially PE mark) may suffering, when jumps are not a 'welcome addition' to the program as a whole.

  4. #164
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    CoR's tech panel is represented by the following countries: Switzerland, France, Hungary, and Sweden. Although it's "the West" as usual during this GP series, formally, they have no vested interests in pushing anyone at anyone's expense. Let's see. I am particularly interested in:

    1) Trusova's StSq level in SP. She had level 4 and she had level 2 already. May be level 3 this time?
    2) The number of Satoko's URs. She had 5 of those in China. I am sure nothing will change in terms of her actual jump rotation within a week. If 5 URs again, I shall be happy - the panels are not always right but at least they are consistent. If fewer than 5, it will be fine again: "a western panel that is surprisingly lenient towards a Japanese skater". If 7 and more, well, at least you should know that there will be another conspiracy theory in my head especially if those URs will matter in her final placement.
    3) Zhenya's edges and URs. "e" or "!" on lutz? Remember that the panel in France gave "e" to Alina who had never any lutz edge issues before.
    4) Mariah's edge and UR calls vs. those of Satoko and Zhenya if they will affect the final placement.

    I won't be able to see those in real time as I shall be on the stands. Hence, my first review will be about overall impression not about 89 degreed vs. 91 and what lies behind.

  5. #165
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    I find it misleading to say Alina has never had an edge issue before.
    Or is it just that it is the first time she has had any calls on the matter?

    It was the same with Zhenya, she was not called and then she was. Does that mean the issue did not exist before?

    Also, how do you know any of the tech panelists have no "vested interests"
    Although national bias is a thing, doesn't mean these people can't have a bias towards skaters not from their country. Especially when no skater from their own nation is not in the mix.

    I am British, but most of my favourite skaters are Russian.

  6. #166
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    As we say even the stones are laughing.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by zounger View Post
    As we say even the stones are laughing.
    I have no idea what that means?

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by macy View Post
    the ISU has a jump instruction DVD showing simulation of single jumps. here is one i found for the lutz

    https://twitter.com/chiburahakkai/st...540608?lang=en

    i found this off a google search (i believe one also came up from the same twitter account for a salchow) but all other search results were fan made videos/manuals. i have no idea if the DVD is available for sale anywhere.
    Very good example to make clarification about "cheated take off" rule btw - which so many people here are perceiving wrongly, IMO. If you watch this ISU educational videos carefully - you will notice that examples of jumps there are divided in several basic stages - with very particular names to them. For example, a jump has preparation stage, take off stage, rotation stage, landing stage etc. - each of them illustrated by corresponding part of video. What is most important here - take off stage is not a moment when skater leaves the ice . Take off stage in this video includes picking phase, prerotation phase and lifting off the ice phase. In other words - take off stage begins just after preparation stage - which includes entry to a jump and making body position just before picking leg hits the ice! See where I am going with this?
    Considering the above "A clear forward take-off" wording in the rule is meant for a moment when skater just ended his preparation phase - just before picking moment in case of toe jumps In other words - all typical half-turn prerotated jumps are considered as being taked off from backwards by this "take off" definition. And, as it happens, this explanation coincides perfectly with so called toe axels as well - they are exactly jumps being done with facing forward position before any picking or prerotation even begins

    Quote Originally Posted by Roast Toast View Post
    Toe-axels as defined by the ISU should pretty much never be seen at the elite level, no. It's a very unintuitive way to jump. The classic example people usually point to is this combo by Mai Asada: https://youtu.be/-PcNa89WPaQ?t=4m4s

    As you can see, she is not even prerotating on the ice, just straight up placing her foot forward as if she was stepping up into an axel.
    I wouldn't be so sure about it. At least it happens some times among top juniors and novices too. Here are examples of Alysa Liu's toe axel in 3A+2T
    https://youtu.be/pbdNAD4FU6Q?t=280 (it wasn't called)
    and Sofia Akatieva's toe axel in 4T+2T https://youtu.be/cRRGZQbHuX0?t=200 (it was properly called as it's shown in protocol at the end of video).
    So it happens even in judging practice - while rarely. That said, it has nothing to do with prerotation - and it has never being meant to be used as something more than rule against "toe axels".

    Quote Originally Posted by ruga View Post
    Oooh so that's what it means. In real time it really looks odd, no wonder ISU addressed it. And basically ISU has no rules against prerotation as far as I understand? Pretty much everyone has 180° PR on +T, S and Lo, more than a half of the skaters on flips and lutzes as well, but their height and distance often suffer. I doubt that ISU will consider 90< PR to be an error as so many skaters will have to change their technique completely.
    Yes, exactly. It's sad there are so many people who are honestly misunderstand this rule (or being manipulated to believe in it this way) and arms with it their crusades against "ISU corruption"

  9. #169
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    So while Gabriella and Guillaume performed really well, I can’t believe they were given full credit for their twizzles. She did one more rotation than him in the first set because she forgot to kick her leg out at the end of the set!

  10. #170
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    NHK Trophy FALSE UR calls:

    Sofia Samodurova 3F+3T< https://youtu.be/oeauMj7Z_Vg?t=5412 (in that case 3F was under - not 3T)
    Sofia Samodurova 3F+3T< https://youtu.be/KXUXkjTOPoM?t=2466
    Sofia Samodurova 3S<+2T+2Lo https://youtu.be/KXUXkjTOPoM?t=2507

    Alina Zagitova 3F<+2T+2Lo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_usASg4fdks&t=389s

    Protocols: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1920/gpjpn2019/

    The history of being victims of false calls continuing for those two poor girls from Grenoble. There were other two also with false calls (Scherbakova and Tuktamysheva) with similar trend in other events as well. One can even begin to wonder what's going on but it's forbidden to discuss this topic here so all I can do is show some cases of it here and that's it

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    So while Gabriella and Guillaume performed really well, I can’t believe they were given full credit for their twizzles. She did one more rotation than him in the first set because she forgot to kick her leg out at the end of the set!
    I cannot imagine being another ice dance having to compete against them. It must be so demoralizing to know no matter what mistakes they make, no matter how well you skate, you will never be allowed to overtake them. I wonder what would happen if they had a full on fall-NOT WISHING THEM TO GET HURT, just want to see how a true costly mistake would affect their scores. At this point I’m thinking not much at all 🙄

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elucidus View Post
    NHK Trophy FALSE UR calls:

    Sofia Samodurova 3F+3T< https://youtu.be/oeauMj7Z_Vg?t=5412 (in that case 3F was under - not 3T)
    Sofia Samodurova 3F+3T< https://youtu.be/KXUXkjTOPoM?t=2466
    Sofia Samodurova 3S<+2T+2Lo https://youtu.be/KXUXkjTOPoM?t=2507

    Alina Zagitova 3F<+2T+2Lo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_usASg4fdks&t=389s

    Protocols: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1920/gpjpn2019/

    The history of being victims of false calls continuing for those two poor girls from Grenoble. There were other two also with false calls (Scherbakova and Tuktamysheva) with similar trend in other events as well. One can even begin to wonder what's going on but it's forbidden to discuss this topic here so all I can do is show some cases of it here and that's it
    I mean Alina got off easy; her 3F and 3L were under and they only called one. Alena also escaped a ! On her FS 3Lz.

    I agree it was the 3F<3T for Sofia.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziotic View Post
    I mean Alina got off easy; her 3F and 3L were under and they only called one. Alena also escaped a ! On her FS 3Lz.
    Yes, they were. But they didn't call those - they call OTHER 3F in combo instead - which was perfectly rotated. I don't care about points here - I just really don't like false calls - whether they miss other URed jumps along with them or not.

  14. #174
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    Anna's Shcherbakova's FALSE 4Lz UR call from GPF free program
    Protocol: http://www.isuresults.com/results/se...sperSkater.pdf

    First camera:
    https://ibb.co/FVBWSLs - beginning of a jump
    https://ibb.co/HG5kP2Y - touching the ice moment
    https://ibb.co/Xjk6dMn - 45 degree rotation on the ice in relation to direction of a jump

    Second camera:
    https://ibb.co/PDdjCSg - beginning of a jump
    https://ibb.co/gdFGTns - touching the ice moment (from that camera it's only one-frame-later moment available - previous frame is at the moment when she was still in the air)
    https://ibb.co/283FwJ4 - 75 degree rotation on the ice in relation to direction of a jump.

    Red arrow - direction of a jump. You can check all this yourself in slo-mo if you want. Difference in perceived rotation degree is due to margin of error within different angles distortions and available landing frames - still, it's far from face-forward landing as it was with Rika's 4S which was counted as rotated.

    P.S.: you can argue that she had flat edge here anyway - but it's not the point here (whether it's true or not is another question - I believe one shouldn't have a right to make edge call without full frontal or rear view available in principle). I don't care here about points and placements (even if that call could make a difference) - all I care about is showing TP bias/mistakes since I hate false calls with passion. It's disgrace to this sport, it humiliates athletes and their work - and it should be eradicated without mercy - by disqualifying from judges work those who are responsible for such calls.

  15. #175
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    I thought that 4Lz was under in replay. Chris commentating on ISU stream thought it was under on replay.
    You can scream false call but that is just your opinion
    You do it all the time too, I think you show bias TBH

    Not trying to offend, just sharing MY opinion too

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mishaminion View Post
    I thought that 4Lz was under in replay. Chris commentating on ISU stream thought it was under on replay.
    You can scream false call but that is just your opinion
    You do it all the time too, I think you show bias TBH

    Not trying to offend, just sharing MY opinion too
    Because she had rough landing and turning on the ice on the jump exit It's typical mistake when determining URs - mixing exit curve on ice with rotation of the jump on ice. It's very common when rotated jumps are having deep curve on exit - because skater making turn to avoid running into board just after the landing.

  17. #177
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    Here we go
    https://youtu.be/5So-xu3n0CU?t=105
    falsely called Anna's 4Lz from tribunes 60fps camera! Angle is from the top - where you can perfectly see direction of a jump and landing trace on ice

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elucidus View Post
    Because she had rough landing and turning on the ice on the jump exit It's typical mistake when determining URs - mixing exit curve on ice with rotation of the jump on ice. It's very common when rotated jumps are having deep curve on exit - because skater making turn to avoid running into board just after the landing.
    She was nowhere near the boards.

    You do this every competition...and it's always Russians...not everything is false you know

  19. #179
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    That's an inside/flat edge to me, and it still looks under.

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by lzxnl View Post
    That's an inside/flat edge to me, and it still looks under.
    Was she given a ! for any of her lutzes?

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