2017 GP NHK Ladies FS

Mathman · Nov 13, 2017

I really don't see what the problem is with Kostner's scores. The IJS goes like this: you get points for everything you do, and you do not get any points for what you don't do.

Carolina presented only low-valued technical elements. As a consequence her TES was 10 points behind the leaders, and in fact her base value was below all of Medvedeva, Tsurskaya, Nagasu, Leonova, Miyahara, Hongo, Shiraiwa, Chartrand, and Bell. This is as it should be. Points are points, arithmetic is arithmetic.

On the PCS side, Kostner displayed good skating skills, good transitions, good composition, good presentation and good interpretation. She got good marks in those areas. A little too high? A little too low? YMMV. For the final placements, add up the points.

Ender · Nov 13, 2017

Mathman said:
I really don't see what the problem is with Kostner's scores. The IJS goes like this: you get points for everything you do, and you do not get any points for what you don't do.

Carolina presented only low-valued technical elements. As a consequence her TES was 10 points behind the leaders, and in fact her base value was below all of Medvedeva, Tsurskaya, Nagasu, Leonova, Miyahara, Hongo, Shiraiwa, Chartrand, and Bell. This is as it should be. Points are points, arithmetic is arithmetic.

On the PCS side, Kostner displayed good skating skills, good transitions, good composition, good presentation and good interpretation. She got good marks in those areas. A little too high? A little too low? YMMV. For the final placements, add up the points.

Average transitions with good quality to be precise.

Viiktoruu · Nov 13, 2017

temadd said:
Med got several +3s on her spins. She is an adequate spinner, with good positions but she lacks speed. She's no Alyssa Cyzny (sp?)

Dear temadd,
figure skating is not easy to judge and has lots of rules, so often people think only one or two factors influence GOE, and start whining of overscoring because they don't have the knowledge of how the scores are done - it's understandable though, the issue is a bit more complex than just positions and speed when regarding spins.

Here are the points to take in consideration when deciding on the GOE mark for spins:
1) good speed or acceleration during spin
2) ability to center a spin quickly
3) balanced rotations in all positions
4) clearly more than required number of revolutions
5) good, strong position(s) (including height and air/landing position in flying spins)
6) creativity and originality
7) good control throughout all phases
8) element matched to the musical structure.

As you can see, speed is only one point. 6 points are what it takes to get a +3 GOE, and not all 8 - so this might explain to you how Medvedeva often gets +3s for spins. And in no way does she not spin fast, even though there are faster spinners indeed.

I hope this helped clarify your lack of understanding of Med's +3s on spins

yume · Nov 13, 2017

Mathman said:
I really don't see what the problem is with Kostner's scores. The IJS goes like this: you get points for everything you do, and you do not get any points for what you don't do.

Carolina presented only low-valued technical elements. As a consequence her TES was 10 points behind the leaders, and in fact her base value was below all of Medvedeva, Tsurskaya, Nagasu, Leonova, Miyahara, Hongo, Shiraiwa, Chartrand, and Bell. This is as it should be. Points are points, arithmetic is arithmetic.

On the PCS side, Kostner displayed good skating skills, good transitions, good composition, good presentation and good interpretation. She got good marks in those areas. A little too high? A little too low? YMMV. For the final placements, add up the points.

Kostner deserved the highest PCS. But not that kind of PCS. Perfect score is 80. She got more than 75....with that skate......flawed skate. Three weeks ago she got 73 with a clean program. So her program is even better with big errors?

Ender · Nov 13, 2017

yume said:
Kostner deserved the highest PCS. But not that kind of PCS. Perfect score is 80. She got more than 75....with that skate......flawed skate. Three weeks ago she go et 73 with a clean program. So her program is even better with big errors?

But to be fair the only lady who did perform that night was Alena Lenova and she didn’t get any 9...

yume · Nov 13, 2017

Ender said:
But to be fair the only lady who did perform that night was Alena Lenova and she didn’t get any 9...

And it's a shame.
Why judges always give almost the same marks on all components? Even if someone doesn't have the best SS, he can have the best performance of the night. So a 8 for SS and a 9 for performance should be possible.

Ender · Nov 13, 2017

yume said:
And it's a shame.
Why judges always give almost the same marks on all components? Even if someone doesn't have the best SS, he can have the best performance of the night. So a 8 for SS and a 9 for performance should be possible.

It’s just 6.0 the same all over again. Skating order and reputation. Too much to ask for I guess.

At biggest events, Judges should be from a 3rd party and get paid by a potions of the tickets sale for fairer judging IMO.

temadd · Nov 13, 2017

Viiktoruu said:
Dear temadd,
figure skating is not easy to judge and has lots of rules, so often people think only one or two factors influence GOE, and start whining of overscoring because they don't have the knowledge of how the scores are done - it's understandable though, the issue is a bit more complex than just positions and speed when regarding spins.

Here are the points to take in consideration when deciding on the GOE mark for spins:
1) good speed or acceleration during spin
2) ability to center a spin quickly
3) balanced rotations in all positions
4) clearly more than required number of revolutions
5) good, strong position(s) (including height and air/landing position in flying spins)
6) creativity and originality
7) good control throughout all phases
8) element matched to the musical structure.

As you can see, speed is only one point. 6 points are what it takes to get a +3 GOE, and not all 8 - so this might explain to you how Medvedeva often gets +3s for spins. And in no way does she not spin fast, even though there are faster spinners indeed.

I hope this helped clarify your lack of understanding of Med's +3s on spins

ok but that felt a little condescending - i hope maybe I can attribute it to a language barrier

Ares · Nov 13, 2017

NAOTMAA said:
This thread became hilarious

The same people defending/advocating Carolina Kostner's huge PCS marks, despite the embarrassingly barren programs, because of her superior skating skills were the same people a few years back throwing a hissy fit and trashing Evgeni Plushenko for the SAME EXACT reason they defend Carolina.

The same people who said he's only about the jumps, its killing skating, his programs have no balance. At least Evgeni was first class untouchable when it came to the jumps, first class best in skating skills, and had more then decent spins and footwork. Carolina is near the bottom when it comes to jumps (as somebody said in the SP thread her jumps are 1980s level difficulty) and average in the spins and footwork. She's only best in skating skills.

So why is it okay today for Carolina to simply do nothing but skate from corner to corner of the rink and do nothing else but look pretty, but it wasn't for Evgeni, even though his programs actually did offer more the Carolina's do?

People for years moaned about skaters doing empty programs and still getting high marks, yet when the Russian girls pack their programs with transitions (and many times to the music beat exact!) people still don't want to give them credit. Suddenly people are advocating the complete opposite of what they were a few years back. I guess its whatever the Russians do fight for the opposite

I agree with many points but no way Carolina Kostner & her footwork (you mean step sequence, right?) is average. She's a class above other active, competing ladies and I am glad when she gets max GOE because she very often deserves that.

curious · Nov 13, 2017

Flawed technical programs on this comp but satokos and medvedieva programs are gorgeous the best.

Blades of Passion · Nov 13, 2017

Viiktoruu said:
I hope this helped clarify your lack of understanding of Med's +3s on spins

Medvedeva never deserves +3 on any of her spins. She does not hit 6 of the 8 bullet points you quoted and you don't seem to understand the rules because there's an entire set of -GOE criteria that need to be balanced against the positive criteria. Even beyond all of that, these bullet points are guidelines. Speed/acceleration and good positions may only be 1 bullet point each, but they matter more than that. Many judges want to see something truly exceptional in that regard to award a +3 (and the rules need to be rewritten to specifically state that a +3 should only be rewarded for elements that are among the best ever).

At best Medvedeva's spins hit bullet points 2, 5, 7, and 8. Frequently I would not give her bullet point 8 (element matched to music structure) and bullet point 5 is also questionable at times, as she has some quite lackluster positions in her combination spin. Bullet point 1 (speed) might sometimes be applicable on her layback spin, but then she loses bullet point 2 (ability to center a spin quickly) whenever she tries to go into the layback with more speed.

Her spins are often "1.5" GOE quality, but judges aren't currently able to split the difference like that on each individual element. Most of the time I would give +1 to her combo spin, +2 to her layback, and then on her flying camel it's more often +1, but occasionally I can see +2 justified.

skateluver · Nov 13, 2017

moriel said:
Honestly, my main butthurt about all this is because of Mao.
Because umm, when Mao came back after Sochi, she was not at all held up like Caro is being held up now. She was not showered with +2/+3 on all her elements. She was not getting 75 PCs for 4 triples programs. Why?

And while we can debate if Medvedeva deserves same PCs as Caro, I really want someone to come here and tell everybody Mao's skating skills are anywhere near Caro's, and Mao's artistry is not anywhere near Caro's, and Mao should not be getting PCs at the same level as Caro.

This!! I always thought Mao was lowballed even before Sochi and as a result I stopped following figure skating for a while. I am not saying Caro is not good. But in my opinion she is being held up ridiculously at the moment and it is hurting credibility of the sport, once again. Mao didn't get this kind of points and she actually had triple axel AND triple lutz (although wrong edge..). Caro has neither. I would say both have good skating skills and artistry. Mao's spins were way better and she also had better transitions and step sequences.

Polina Tsurskaja should have won this competition.

yume · Nov 14, 2017

skateluver said:
This!! I always thought Mao was lowballed even before Sochi and as a result I stopped following figure skating for a while. I am not saying Caro is not good. But in my opinion she is being held up ridiculously at the moment and it is hurting credibility of the sport, once again. Mao didn't get this kind of points and she actually had triple axel AND triple lutz (although wrong edge..). Caro has neither. I would say both have good skating skills and artistry. Mao's spins were way better and she also had better transitions and step sequences.

And Mao had 3F-3lo/ 2A-3T/ 3F-2lo-2lo. She attempted 7-8 triples programs (even if she had beloved URs). With Mao's 2016 worlds technical content, Carolina would score 155+.

FSGMT · Nov 14, 2017

NAOTMAA said:
This thread became hilarious

The same people defending/advocating Carolina Kostner's huge PCS marks, despite the embarrassingly barren programs, because of her superior skating skills were the same people a few years back throwing a hissy fit and trashing Evgeni Plushenko for the SAME EXACT reason they defend Carolina.

The same people who said he's only about the jumps, its killing skating, his programs have no balance. At least Evgeni was first class untouchable when it came to the jumps, first class best in skating skills, and had more then decent spins and footwork. Carolina is near the bottom when it comes to jumps (as somebody said in the SP thread her jumps are 1980s level difficulty) and average in the spins and footwork. She's only best in skating skills.

So why is it okay today for Carolina to simply do nothing but skate from corner to corner of the rink and do nothing else but look pretty, but it wasn't for Evgeni, even though his programs actually did offer more the Carolina's do?

People for years moaned about skaters doing empty programs and still getting high marks, yet when the Russian girls pack their programs with transitions (and many times to the music beat exact!) people still don't want to give them credit. Suddenly people are advocating the complete opposite of what they were a few years back. I guess its whatever the Russians do fight for the opposite

Have I really just read a post in which Carolina and Plushenko were put on the same PCS level? :eeking: :slink:

There are like billions of light years between them in terms of SS, PE, CH and IN (and between Carolina and most of her competitors, except maybe Medvedeva, Osmond and Miyahara). The only thing I agree about is TR, a field in which Caro should be penalized a lot more (there's no way her programs, especially her FS, should receive 9s in TR), but it's just one of five marks: she deserves every point she gets in the other four areas

Viiktoruu · Nov 14, 2017

Blades of Passion said:
Medvedeva never deserves +3 on any of her spins. She does not hit 6 of the 8 bullet points you quoted and you don't seem to understand the rules because there's an entire set of -GOE criteria that need to be balanced against the positive criteria. Even beyond all of that, these bullet points are guidelines. Speed/acceleration and good positions may only be 1 bullet point each, but they matter more than that. Many judges want to see something truly exceptional in that regard to award a +3 (and the rules need to be rewritten to specifically state that a +3 should only be rewarded for elements that are among the best ever).

At best Medvedeva's spins hit bullet points 2, 5, 7, and 8. Frequently I would not give her bullet point 8 (element matched to music structure) and bullet point 5 is also questionable at times, as she has some quite lackluster positions in her combination spin. Bullet point 1 (speed) might sometimes be applicable on her layback spin, but then she loses bullet point 2 (ability to center a spin quickly) whenever she tries to go into the layback with more speed.

Her spins are often "1.5" GOE quality, but judges aren't currently able to split the difference like that on each individual element. Most of the time I would give +1 to her combo spin, +2 to her layback, and then on her flying camel it's more often +1, but occasionally I can see +2 justified.

Medvedeva sometimes deserves +3 on her spins. She hits 6 out of 8 points I quoted. I am also aware of the negative GOE criteria but truly I don't know when she met those with her spins. If the rules are guidelines are they not to be followed? At the very least concerning the TES?

At her worst Medvedeva's spins hit bullet points 2, 5, 7 and 8. Frequently I would give her bullets 1, 3 or 6. I agree though that when she enters the LSp with a lot of speed she takes more time to center her spin - so she doesn't meet bullet 2 at those instances.

Her spins are often "2.5" GOE quality, but judges aren't currently able to split the difference like that on each individual element. Most of the time I would give +2 to her combo spin, +3 to her layback, and then on her flying camel it's more often +2, but occasionally I can see +3 justified.

ask · Nov 14, 2017

yume said:
And Mao had 3F-3lo/ 2A-3T/ 3F-2lo-2lo. She attempted 7-8 triples programs (even if she had beloved URs). With Mao's 2016 worlds technical content, Carolina would score 155+.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/wc2016/wc2016_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Mao´s LP at 2016 Worlds. Her PCS was 69.30.
If you want to rewatch, here it is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUwBkQEILVo

She is noticeably slower than Kostner. Yes, her PCS is on the lower side. Should have been 72-73, but that only adds 4 points to her total, which will give her 138.43. This is higher than Kostner´s score at NHK. You can look at her TES deficiency in the score sheet.

So yes, Mao is often underscored in PCS. In TES, she can do all the triples, but her URs and GOE will hold her back.

My personal take is if Mao does not have UR problem, she should win every single competition she is in, regardless of who is competing and who is clean. Yes, even above Yuna, Caro, Med.

Another thing is, Mao sometimes made mistakes in the SP and took her out of contention. This is why it´s puzzling to see her PCS in the LP to be so low. Caro rarely made mistakes in the SP, and so she´s always in the final group. This is why her LP PCS is always good.

Spirals for Miles · Nov 14, 2017

Maybe not big mistakes but she does make mistakes.
See: Worlds 2017, NHK 2017.
There might be more ones that happened recently that I'm just not aware of because I don't follow her as much.

Another big thing for me:
Carolina got a 66 *(I think)* at worlds for her SP with a mistake on a spin.
Carolina got a 74 at NHK this year for SP with a stumble on the combo landing and a slight mistake on a spin.
Makes you wonder...

yume · Nov 14, 2017

ask said:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/wc2016/wc2016_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Mao´s LP at 2016 Worlds. Her PCS was 69.30.
If you want to rewatch, here it is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUwBkQEILVo

She is noticeably slower than Kostner. Yes, her PCS is on the lower side. Should have been 72-73, but that only adds 4 points to her total, which will give her 138.43. This is higher than Kostner´s score at NHK. You can look at her TES deficiency in the score sheet.

So yes, Mao is often underscored in PCS. In TES, she can do all the triples, but her URs and GOE will hold her back.

My personal take is if Mao does not have UR problem, she should win every single competition she is in, regardless of who is competing and who is clean. Yes, even above Yuna, Caro, Med.

True. But my point was that with that technical content, Kostner would score much much higher at NHK. She got 62 TES with easier elements and just 4 triples landed. With her big GOEs, a 8 triples program would give her cosmic TES. Not sure that she would get calls, she doesn't have the reputation to UR her jumps after all.

Miss Ice · Nov 14, 2017

Viiktoruu said:
Medvedeva sometimes deserves +3 on her spins. She hits 6 out of 8 points I quoted. I am also aware of the negative GOE criteria but truly I don't know when she met those with her spins. If the rules are guidelines are they not to be followed? At the very least concerning the TES?

At her worst Medvedeva's spins hit bullet points 2, 5, 7 and 8. Frequently I would give her bullets 1, 3 or 6. I agree though that when she enters the LSp with a lot of speed she takes more time to center her spin - so she doesn't meet bullet 2 at those instances.

Her spins are often "2.5" GOE quality, but judges aren't currently able to split the difference like that on each individual element. Most of the time I would give +2 to her combo spin, +3 to her layback, and then on her flying camel it's more often +2, but occasionally I can see +3 justified.

+3 GOE for her layback is ridiculous. If you want to see a layback/Biellman that deserves a +3, look at Mirai or Karen (and perhaps Yulia).

Karen's layback: https://youtu.be/NixhPhyYW4w?t=3m15s

Medvedeva's catch foot: https://youtu.be/p34SMcbhaVk?t=43s

Notice how Med's spinning leg is bent during her catch foot spin. She doesn't hold the layback position at all, whereas Karen has a much greater arch on her layback and holds it for a long time. It is a lot like Sasha Cohen's.

Yes, Med's spin does increase in speed when she pulls it up but her spinning leg position is questionable and the only arguably "difficult" position is the catchfoot. Meanwhile Karen's spin has 2 exquisite position (both layback + Biellmann).

Zora · Nov 14, 2017

Miss Ice said:
Notice how Med's spinning leg is bent during her catch foot spin. She doesn't hold the layback position at all, whereas Karen has a much greater arch on her layback and holds it for a long time. It is a lot like Sasha Cohen's.

Yes, Med's spin does increase in speed when she pulls it up but her spinning leg position is questionable and the only arguably "difficult" position is the catchfoot. Meanwhile Karen's spin has 2 exquisite position (both layback + Biellmann).

Does flexibility really matter? I remember with the spirals back in the days, Mao always had the best positions but she got less points for it because she was slower than Yuna or Carolina, who both didn't have the flexibility.

2017 GP NHK Ladies FS

Mathman

Ender

Match Penalty

Viiktoruu

yume

🍉

Ender

Match Penalty

yume

🍉

Ender

Match Penalty

temadd

Ares

curious

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

skateluver

yume

🍉

FSGMT

Viiktoruu

ask

Match Penalty

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion

yume

🍉

Miss Ice

Let the sky fall~

Zora

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