2017 GP NHK Ladies FS

[Mathman]

The lack of understanding of the PCS scores seems to be a chronic disease here.

In order to understand that PCS is not a single number you write based on how much you like a skater's program, and that more goes through a judge's brain than just ...

It is not always easy to guess what goes through a judge's brain. But if you want to make a pretty accurate prediction of what PCSs a judge will give out, take the SS score and multiply by 5. This will be pretty close most of the time.

 

[NAOTMAA]

This thread became hilarious

The same people defending/advocating Carolina Kostner's huge PCS marks, despite the embarrassingly barren programs, because of her superior skating skills were the same people a few years back throwing a hissy fit and trashing Evgeni Plushenko for the SAME EXACT reason they defend Carolina.

The same people who said he's only about the jumps, its killing skating, his programs have no balance. At least Evgeni was first class untouchable when it came to the jumps, first class best in skating skills, and had more then decent spins and footwork. Carolina is near the bottom when it comes to jumps (as somebody said in the SP thread her jumps are 1980s level difficulty) and average in the spins and footwork. She's only best in skating skills.

So why is it okay today for Carolina to simply do nothing but skate from corner to corner of the rink and do nothing else but look pretty, but it wasn't for Evgeni, even though his programs actually did offer more the Carolina's do?

People for years moaned about skaters doing empty programs and still getting high marks, yet when the Russian girls pack their programs with transitions (and many times to the music beat exact!) people still don't want to give them credit. Suddenly people are advocating the complete opposite of what they were a few years back. I guess its whatever the Russians do fight for the opposite

 

[blue_idealist]

This thread became hilarious

The same people defending/advocating Carolina Kostner's huge PCS marks, despite the embarrassingly barren programs, because of her superior skating skills were the same people a few years back throwing a hissy fit and trashing Evgeni Plushenko for the SAME EXACT reason they defend Carolina.

The same people who said he's only about the jumps, its killing skating, his programs have no balance. At least Evgeni was first class untouchable when it came to the jumps, first class best in skating skills, and had more then decent spins and footwork. Carolina is near the bottom when it comes to jumps (as somebody said in the SP thread her jumps are 1980s level difficulty) and average in the spins and footwork. She's only best in skating skills.

So why is it okay today for Carolina to simply do nothing but skate from corner to corner of the rink and do nothing else but look pretty, but it wasn't for Evgeni, even though his programs actually did offer more the Carolina's do?

People for years moaned about skaters doing empty programs and still getting high marks, yet when the Russian girls pack their programs with transitions (and many times to the music beat exact!) people still don't want to give them credit. Suddenly people are advocating the complete opposite of what they were a few years back. I guess its whatever the Russians do fight for the opposite

Carolina now is kind of like the Chan of the earlier part of the decade, the Chan who could win competitions practically based on SS alone. LOL. It's funny that Chan's skating skills haven't diminished but he's no longer being rewarded over and above his competitors so much for them.

 

[NAOTMAA]

Carolina now is kind of like the Chan of the earlier part of the decade, the Chan who could win competitions practically based on SS alone. LOL. It's funny that Chan's skating skills haven't diminished but he's no longer being rewarded over and above his competitors so much for them.

True. I guess reputation bonus points are different for the men then they are the ladies Carolina should be suffering the same fate Patrick currently is but isn't. I guess it easier for the ladies to be welcomed back then it is then men

Although in Patrick's defense his programs, in the earlier part of the decade when he was winning on SS, did have actual transitions in them while Carolina's programs pretty much have zero

 

[4everchan]

Carolina now is kind of like the Chan of the earlier part of the decade, the Chan who could win competitions practically based on SS alone. LOL. It's funny that Chan's skating skills haven't diminished but he's no longer being rewarded over and above his competitors so much for them.

let's not forget that when Chan won his 3 world championship titles, he was also doing two quads in the LP, which was exceptional. People always forget that he had the highest BV back then (or one of the highest) and his "haters" thought that complaining about his PCS being high was enough to belittle him... but even on days when he wasn't perfect, his BV cushion served him to win his titles, that and the fact that he was one of the only skaters back then, able to have two decent programs back to back...

Right now, Patrick is received stingy PCS and it had been explained, for instance at worlds last year when he had a flawless SP and scored less in PCS than Javi, that it was because he only had one quad in his SP.... so we see here that there is a very strong disconnect... some say that Patrick doesn't deserve higher PCS since his BV is lower??? while they are okay with Kostner's earning of high PCS with a low BV...

etc
etc
etc

 

[viennaskater]

Rough skate by Zhenya standards and she seemed out of it, but I like it overall. The music does a lot of work for her artistically though. I hate the facial expressions (the goofy/creepy mix is right out of David Lynch). I admire that she doesn’t break down after mistakes though, that’s the mark of a champion.

I don't know why everyone was going mad here, it's not like she had a meltdown. For me, I hate the programme and the music is AWFUL, it goes all discordant in the middle and not pleasant to hear.

 

[moriel]

We should Not forget that figure skating is determined to be ART. Judging will be never fair to anyboday. Concerning Carolina it is just amazing to see the way she is fighting back ( to have also in mind how old she is.) Due to the new point collecting system we see a lot of skaters doing the same to get as much as points.
I am not a fan of Medvedeva and Polina. I get the feeling Eteri is trying to build an army of invincible warriors. Technically mostly perfect, but still immature. A perfect cunstruct to hide things which are not there already. I speak about Mature emotion , elegance in movements and details that came from inside. Mao Asada, Carolina Kostner and For me Ashley Wagner as well have that. These athlets play in another class because of there development over the years. And I am very happy to see that at NHK this was reflected by judging for Carolina even she was not perfect in the technical content.
In my opinion the age limit should be reviewed. Senior Ladies 18 years and older.

Figure skating is determined to be SPORT.

 

[moriel]

True. I guess reputation bonus points are different for the men then they are the ladies Carolina should be suffering the same fate Patrick currently is but isn't. I guess it easier for the ladies to be welcomed back then it is then men

Although in Patrick's defense his programs, in the earlier part of the decade when he was winning on SS, did have actual transitions in them while Carolina's programs pretty much have zero

Honestly, my main butthurt about all this is because of Mao.
Because umm, when Mao came back after Sochi, she was not at all held up like Caro is being held up now. She was not showered with +2/+3 on all her elements. She was not getting 75 PCs for 4 triples programs. Why?

And while we can debate if Medvedeva deserves same PCs as Caro, I really want someone to come here and tell everybody Mao's skating skills are anywhere near Caro's, and Mao's artistry is not anywhere near Caro's, and Mao should not be getting PCs at the same level as Caro.

 

[MiraiFan]

Interesting competition. While I love Carolina, I agree she was overscored here and should have been off the podium. And yeah, gold with a fall ... nope. Tsurskaya should have been in first.
Mirai is looking better and better...
Happy to see Tsurskaya back--would love to see her on the Olympic team. She has lovely movements, great jumps, and uncluttered programs.
Leonova's FS was fun--had never appreciated her that much before but that was great.

 

[silverfoxes]

Honestly, my main butthurt about all this is because of Mao.
Because umm, when Mao came back after Sochi, she was not at all held up like Caro is being held up now. She was not showered with +2/+3 on all her elements. She was not getting 75 PCs for 4 triples programs. Why?

And while we can debate if Medvedeva deserves same PCs as Caro, I really want someone to come here and tell everybody Mao's skating skills are anywhere near Caro's, and Mao's artistry is not anywhere near Caro's, and Mao should not be getting PCs at the same level as Caro.

So true!

I mean, if Carolina can get medals like this, why not Misha Ge? Can Stephane and Tatsuki Machida come back while we're at it and get medals over all the young guys cranking out quads?

 

[andromache]

So true!

I mean, if Carolina can get medals like this, why not Misha Ge? Can Stephane and Tatsuki Machida come back while we're at it and get medals over all the young guys cranking out quads?

Arguably, yes - the GOE and PCS SHOULD be capable of putting a skater with easier technical content ahead of a skater with less quality/PCS and greater technical content. That's the balance of the sport.

HOWEVER, we know from watching skating that the overwhelming pattern in judging is that higher PCS and GOEs go to skaters with greater technical content and consistency, even if their skating/choreography/etc. is not of the quality of some others.

Carolina seems to be the exception to this, and that's what makes people mad. I think part of it has to do with the fact that the Italian federation is very good at supporting a select few (Carolina and C/L), and also the judges just really, really love Carolina. And it may also have to do with something that can only really be seen live. I don't know.

I enjoy Carolina's skating a lot. There is something very old-school Janet Lynn about her that obviously speaks to judges and fans. I found her score and placements at Rostelecom fine. At NHK I think she placed too high.

 

[jenaj]

This thread became hilarious

The same people defending/advocating Carolina Kostner's huge PCS marks, despite the embarrassingly barren programs, because of her superior skating skills were the same people a few years back throwing a hissy fit and trashing Evgeni Plushenko for the SAME EXACT reason they defend Carolina.

The same people who said he's only about the jumps, its killing skating, his programs have no balance. At least Evgeni was first class untouchable when it came to the jumps, first class best in skating skills, and had more then decent spins and footwork. Carolina is near the bottom when it comes to jumps (as somebody said in the SP thread her jumps are 1980s level difficulty) and average in the spins and footwork. She's only best in skating skills.

So why is it okay today for Carolina to simply do nothing but skate from corner to corner of the rink and do nothing else but look pretty, but it wasn't for Evgeni, even though his programs actually did offer more the Carolina's do?

People for years moaned about skaters doing empty programs and still getting high marks, yet when the Russian girls pack their programs with transitions (and many times to the music beat exact!) people still don't want to give them credit. Suddenly people are advocating the complete opposite of what they were a few years back. I guess its whatever the Russians do fight for the opposite

I don't see how it's the "exact same reason." No one--at least no one who is honest--would say Plushenko was the best in PCS. People were complaining, as I recall, because he received high PCS despite no transitions. With Carolina, her PCS is, and should be, independent from her TES. Her jumping, spins and footwork (as a technical element) have nothing to do with her PCS. She is considered the best by many not only in skating skills, but also in P/E and I. Her composition is certainly better than the backloaded programs of some of the Russian skaters.

 

[jenaj]

Figure skating is determined to be SPORT.

It is sport and art. Otherwise there would be no score for performance/execution, interpretation and composition.

 

[jenaj]

Carolina now is kind of like the Chan of the earlier part of the decade, the Chan who could win competitions practically based on SS alone. LOL. It's funny that Chan's skating skills haven't diminished but he's no longer being rewarded over and above his competitors so much for them.

Patrick, as I recall, fell several times and still won. That was what set people off.

 

[Mathman]

Patrick, as I recall, fell several times and still won. That was what set people off.

This was jarring to people back then, who were used to 6.0 scoring where a fall was regarded as a performance-killing error. Nowadays I think fans have become used to the idea that falls are no big deal under the IJS.

 

[moriel]

This was jarring to people back then, who were used to 6.0 scoring where a fall was regarded as a performance-killing error. Nowadays I think fans have become used to the idea that falls are no big deal under the IJS.

TES is still a thing though. Falls are no big deal, but overall technical level still means something, specially considering the way it is measured and displayed.
I think what bothers many users is that you follow the TES only during performance, and then *BAM* PCs come out and totally change everything.

 

[temadd]

With Medvedeva's cushion? I agree that Polina should have outscored Medvedeva in FS but she should not have won gold.

She definitely should have placed ahead of Kostner, though.

Med got several +3s on her spins. She is an adequate spinner, with good positions but she lacks speed. She's no Alyssa Cyzny (sp?)

 

[temadd]

Arguably, yes - the GOE and PCS SHOULD be capable of putting a skater with easier technical content ahead of a skater with less quality/PCS and greater technical content. That's the balance of the sport.

HOWEVER, we know from watching skating that the overwhelming pattern in judging is that higher PCS and GOEs go to skaters with greater technical content and consistency, even if their skating/choreography/etc. is not of the quality of some others.

Carolina seems to be the exception to this, and that's what makes people mad. I think part of it has to do with the fact that the Italian federation is very good at supporting a select few (Carolina and C/L), and also the judges just really, really love Carolina. And it may also have to do with something that can only really be seen live. I don't know.

I enjoy Carolina's skating a lot. There is something very old-school Janet Lynn about her that obviously speaks to judges and fans. I found her score and placements at Rostelecom fine. At NHK I think she placed too high.

I agree that this is the balance of the sport. Unfortunately it is not applied consistently among skaters and that's what is so frustrating about Caro's placements. She is one of the few who can have weak tech content, underrotations, pops and few transitions and still get 9-9.75 across the board.

 

[jenaj]

Med got several +3s on her spins. She is an adequate spinner, with good positions but she lacks speed. She's no Alyssa Cyzny (sp?)

Or Mirai Nagasu or Satoko Miyahara.

 

[yume]

So true!

I mean, if Carolina can get medals like this, why not Misha Ge?

Not the same reputation and overscoring over the years.

Can Stephane and Tatsuki Machida come back while we're at it and get medals over all the young guys cranking out quads?

Stéphane and Tatsuki would be buried by judges.