2014 Skate America Ladies FS 10/26

[OS]

I find your insistence on summing up people who didn't like Park's performance/programs as "not getting it", "being biased", and "having no musical sensitivity" to be rude and dismissive. Several posters who didn't find her performance exciting had legitimate reasons for their reaction.

I like Park's subtle, inward-facing, and more Asian-style of skating. It's a nice contrast to the Russian OTT dramatic flair. I don't think her PCS deserved to be so low. I have my conspiracy theory that she's affected by being S. Korean, but it's entirely possibly that in person, her skating doesn't have that much impact - hence the low PCS (as a friend who attended the event said).

Nice twist of wording, I would appreciate if you don't thread drag and insisting on accusations that has already been clarified for you.

For the record, yes I AM certainly dismissive of anyone who called this piece of music construct BORING. AND I do think anyone who is only able to describe this music 'going no where' that just goes 'on and on' do indeed lack musical sensitivity. I am not going to apologize for it, I will happily say it to anyone to their face, just like like I once told a Turner Prize winner his work is pretentious and is conceptually weak and spent an hour debating on this on his gallery opening week. He went on to win the Turner prize of course, but the one work that wasn't featured on the documentary among the gallery collection was the one I debated on. I'd like to think I am still right although I am not arrogant enough to admit I can be wrong (ie/ Miraaiiiiiii). You can find me rude all you like, it wouldn't be the first time on these boards I can assure you.

 

[yyyskate]

I will always love Mirai no matter what, because, her Golden Pound and Demons touched my heart. I enjoy her fabulous basics, posture, lines, spins, jumps, yes they are not consistent, but when it is done right, it is a beauty. BTW, I remembered Mirai's step sequence is very impressive when watch it live.
A little report about Radio's step sequence, her twizzles seems jumped or skidded...

 

[MIM]

You need to seriously calm down. Projection is an area I 'too' have identified on her fan thread and have even noted specific areas of improvement, I am not denial. I do however have problems with anyone people discount music and choreography choices or her quieter nuanced performances as 'boring', it may not be in your face type of interpretation, but it is there. When I see good potentials, just like I saw good potential for Julia's Schidler's list, and Hanyu's Romeo and Juliet, V/M's Carmen at their debut, all were controversial at the time, of course I am going to defend it. I am even willing to stick my neck out and call out Jeremy's FS THE best program of the entire singles competition even if it may not have won medals just yet.

Park is a newbie making her GP debut where she put out decent performances, yet received 3rd lowest PCS in her SP. Even though there are obviously areas for improvement, but we all saw the whole competition, do you think her PCS deserve to be 9th out 11th consider how well she skated?

No, but kind of yes. She was neglecting the audience.

I am saying this as a person who enjoyed So Youn's both programs and re-watched them, especially LP, over ten times.

I must say that her skating was very personal. She was breathing with the music. The emotion and the choreography was there, but it existed just for herself and she did not even try very much to project it outward. She was so invested to give all her attention to personalize or internalize, that the audience were left out. Only handful of people who appreciate this kind of approach or open to the care for the detailed/nuanced touch were welcome and mesmerized by her performance.

I see the reason why people felt it boring or forgettable. It was because of her style of skating to learn a program or process of maturing/seasoning it. So, it is neither David Wilson's nor So Youn's fault. The PCS is low, because she skated that way.

I could see the improvement from the Asian Trophy;Her choreo and emotion was more solid at SA than it was at Asian Trophy. I am excited just thinking about what she can bring next time. Can she be seasoned enough to let the reserved self go, and enrich the program even more?

 

[OS]

I could see the improvement from the Asian Trophy;Her choreo and emotion was more solid at SA than it was at Asian Trophy. I am excited just thinking about what she can bring next time. Can she be seasoned enough to let the reserved self go, and enrich the program even more?

I think this is a valid comments for Asian skaters, particularly female. The second part of the program particularly require a more layered expression as Juliet heading to her fate. Not sure how she is going to get out of her reserved shell a little , maybe some hip pop / street dance / dub step classes or live performance with a Kpop girl band, add some attitude?

Radio's problem is simply discipline and refinement. Some body need to steer her in the right directions and learn to say no to her. The way she is developing remind me of a child prodigy who can do everything and get to do anything she want because she is making someone so much money, no one has ever learnt to say no to her. Her Dracula / Tron / Guardian of the Galaxy / Queen of the night / Darth Diva / Lady in white Gala is all sort of zaniness. The only thing that is missing from that program is a space ship, some dry ice and John Wiliams music at the end.

 

[gravy]

I think I understand now why I like Seo Youn. To me, she bears some resemblance to Mao. Their execution on the technical side is far different and she doesn't have the same stunning display of talent that Mao does, but I think she has a similar soulful, reserved beauty that makes me feel like I am eavesdropping on her performance. The same criticisms about lack of projection and emotion plagued Mao through much of her career, like in Bells of Moscow, but when I heard this it totally contradicted the subtle but profoundly beautiful spirit I felt when I watched Mao perform. And now to a lesser extent, I am starting to feel the same way about Seo Youn in the face of the criticisms that she lacks projection and that she's not a true performer. At least in her Skate America LP, she already is a wonderful performer to me.

Love that line. :thumbsup:

How is her demeanor "northern European"? I'm just curious, whatever demeanor it is though, it is lovely.

Scandinavians are known to be very introverted and don't show-off or crave attention even if they are the best athletes in the world. This phenomenon is actually called 'janteloven'. Look at Ole Einar Bjoerndalen from Norway; in Sochi, he became the athlete with the most medals at the Winter Olympics. Instead of fist-pumping and jumping up and down, he actually apologized for breaking the other man's record.

I kind of get that from Park. Her jump technique is on point, but she doesn't sell it. I mean, she looks down at the ice when she skates like she doesn't want attention. I personally like her style of skating and her LP was my favorite of SA, but if she's isn't getting the judges involved as she should, it's not going to help her PCS. Especially since she can't rely on politicking to raise her scores since Korea isn't a powerhouse.

 

[dorispulaski]

Well, Korea is a powerhouse in Speedy's favorite part of the ISU, speed skating. I am not sure how the realpolitik of the ISU works, but I can't help speculating.

 

[MIM]

Scandinavians are known to be very introverted and don't show-off or crave attention even if they are the best athletes in the world. This phenomenon is actually called 'janteloven'. Look at Ole Einar Bjoerndalen from Norway; in Sochi, he became the athlete with the most medals at the Winter Olympics. Instead of fist-pumping and jumping up and down, he actually apologized for breaking the other man's record.

I kind of get that from Park. Her jump technique is on point, but she doesn't sell it. I mean, she looks down at the ice when she skates like she doesn't want attention. I personally like her style of skating and her LP was my favorite of SA, but if she's isn't getting the judges involved as she should, it's not going to help her PCS. Especially since she can't rely on politicking to raise her scores since Korea isn't a powerhouse.

Haha, nice word! I like the humble and introverted quality of Northern Europeans and happy to learn there is a world for it.

I am curious to see what is Yuna's role in this situation. She will see what So Youn can improve upon at this point; Can she coach/mentor/advise So Youn to open up a little bit and share the joy of performance?

 

[Miss Ice]

Love that line. :thumbsup:



Scandinavians are known to be very introverted and don't show-off or crave attention even if they are the best athletes in the world. This phenomenon is actually called 'janteloven'. Look at Ole Einar Bjoerndalen from Norway; in Sochi, he became the athlete with the most medals at the Winter Olympics. Instead of fist-pumping and jumping up and down, he actually apologized for breaking the other man's record.

I kind of get that from Park. Her jump technique is on point, but she doesn't sell it. I mean, she looks down at the ice when she skates like she doesn't want attention. I personally like her style of skating and her LP was my favorite of SA, but if she's isn't getting the judges involved as she should, it's not going to help her PCS. Especially since she can't rely on politicking to raise her scores since Korea isn't a powerhouse.

Yep.I also prefer that kind of humble yet brilliant style to mouth-open jump exists and fist pumping. Waving to the judges is also something that should just be banned, it's so out of place and out of basic decency standards.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

^ ^ ^ ^

http://media3.giphy.com/media/119SFXjoMsax6o/200_s.gif

 

[Miss Ice]

^ ^ ^ ^

http://media3.giphy.com/media/119SFXjoMsax6o/200_s.gif

And your point is...? I really do like a humble style more than fistpumping and handwaving. :think:

 

[andyjo24]

Haha, nice word! I like the humble and introverted quality of Northern Europeans and happy to learn there is a world for it.

I am curious to see what is Yuna's role in this situation. She will see what So Youn can improve upon at this point; Can she coach/mentor/advise So Youn to open up a little bit and share the joy of performance?

This. Yu-na was also a very introverted skater but was able to suck the audience into her personalized performance. If So Youn can manage to do this in the future and land her planned triples, she will become someone extremely hard to beat.

Personally, I think her low PCS at SA is just due to her being new to the stage. 54.34 in the free is actually higher than what Mirai, Elene, and Haruka (all 52-54) got for pretty decent skates, and all three of them beat out So Youn's PCS (26-27 to 24.95) in the short. So Youn just needs to wait and put out more decent performances, and her PCS will eventually go up. IMO, if she keeps up the good work, she will be near 60 in PCS by Worlds in Shanghai next year.

 

[mskater93]

We should give her and of course, all the other skaters time to refine their programs. By Worlds, they should all be able to show their best. :agree:

I am talking about what she put out this past weekend as that was what was being judged at SkAm, not what she "will" or "might" put out by Worlds. She had very little projection from where I was sitting and, other than the tech, was rather forgettable because it was a pretty program to nice music that did not have anything special that drew me (or anyone around me) in (there was a lot of murmuring which I took as an indication of boredom). If this is how a group of competitive (adult) skaters felt about the program, I can just imagine what the judges felt while watching what was being put out. I DO think her PCS was justified in the LP from being in the arena in that Mirai, with all her technical difficulties and focus on not falling, put out a much more memorable PERFORMANCE with regard to all the categories PCS encompasses as did Sam (SS notwithstanding there), Gracie, Elene, Elena, and Liza. Even if some of them are contrived in how they present programs (I am looking at Mirai, Elene, and Gracie here), they have learned to project and make you come along with them, even if you don't think this the real "them".

If someone wants to be an introvert, great, but expect the PE and IN to be affected (and the other PCS marks as well) unless there is something VERY special about the choreo and how they are able to draw in.

 

[yyyskate]

well, if a program is really that BORING, even bored the audience to murmur, that must be very very boring. but why so many people here, not even fans, love to watch her program more than 10 times..
Like I said, she will have plenty of outings in the future, just go watch her live, you will see

 

[peg]

well, if a program is really that BORING, even bored the audience to murmur, that must be very very boring. but why so many people here, not even fans, love to watch her program more than 10 times..

I think it probably just comes down to the fact that watching live is very different from watching on screen. On screen, you lose the sense of speed because you're not seeing the full ice surface and getting a sense of how fast a skater is moving across it. On the other hand, you gain intimacy. Because the camera gives you a much closer view of the skater, it makes it possible to enjoy nuances that may get lost in a huge arena. The analogy that comes to mind is with acting. Stage actors need to exaggerate their facial expressions so that even people in the back can see, whereas if you have a camera zoomed in on a face, subtlety is better.

I personally thoroughly enjoyed watching her skate, but reading the perspective of those who saw her live helps me understand why her PCS were so low. Her style probably works better on tv than in a large arena. Hopefully, she will learn to project a bit more with time and experience, because she has so many lovely qualities

 

[RemyRose]

I am talking about what she put out this past weekend as that was what was being judged at SkAm, not what she "will" or "might" put out by Worlds. She had very little projection from where I was sitting and, other than the tech, was rather forgettable because it was a pretty program to nice music that did not have anything special that drew me (or anyone around me) in (there was a lot of murmuring which I took as an indication of boredom). If this is how a group of competitive (adult) skaters felt about the program, I can just imagine what the judges felt while watching what was being put out. I DO think her PCS was justified in the LP from being in the arena in that Mirai, with all her technical difficulties and focus on not falling, put out a much more memorable PERFORMANCE with regard to all the categories PCS encompasses as did Sam (SS notwithstanding there), Gracie, Elene, Elena, and Liza. Even if some of them are contrived in how they present programs (I am looking at Mirai, Elene, and Gracie here), they have learned to project and make you come along with them, even if you don't think this the real "them".

If someone wants to be an introvert, great, but expect the PE and IN to be affected (and the other PCS marks as well) unless there is something VERY special about the choreo and how they are able to draw in.

Well said :agree:

 

[karne]

Yep.I also prefer that kind of humble yet brilliant style to mouth-open jump exists and fist pumping. Waving to the judges is also something that should just be banned, it's so out of place and out of basic decency standards.

Oh really? I love it when the skaters reach out and connect like that. Like Plushy blowing kisses to the crowd or encouraging them to clap with the music (he was doing that at 15! lunacy that he was already that confident!). Or like Jason and the pivot with the outstretched hand before his Riverdance step sequence, encouraging the crowd to come with him and get excited (and if you pay attention, as the season went on the crowd's cheers got louder and louder every time). Or yes, like the fistpump you sometimes see after a jump. I like that too, when a skater is going well and knows it.

I love seeing Brooklee's smile through the step sequence of her FS when she knows she's having a skate of her life moment, even if she wasn't rewarded for it as she should have been. I loved seeing Max grin and wink at the crowd during his Tron StSq. I love all those little connections that skaters make to let us know that they know we are there. I love seeing a skater project like that.

I dislike bland expressions and no emotions. I dislike performances that reek of a lack of effort.

 

[yyyskate]

Nam smiled at the audience, and they absolutely adored him for that. Denis completely absorbed in his EX music and interpretation. And the audience admires why Denis is Denis.
Try to stick every jumping landing like Brooklee, audience will cheer for her courage. Or jump beautiful and effortlessly like SoYoun, the audience may even ignored how difficult that is.
Project all your heart is an effort that perhaps audience friendly and easily acknowledged, but a nuanced performance is what truly a master will do.
when a skater smile at me, my heart will melt, but I will only watch masterful performance over and over again.
A program is not only projection, it is projection when it is appropriate.

 

[gravy]

Oh really? I love it when the skaters reach out and connect like that. Like Plushy blowing kisses to the crowd or encouraging them to clap with the music (he was doing that at 15! lunacy that he was already that confident!). Or like Jason and the pivot with the outstretched hand before his Riverdance step sequence, encouraging the crowd to come with him and get excited (and if you pay attention, as the season went on the crowd's cheers got louder and louder every time). Or yes, like the fistpump you sometimes see after a jump. I like that too, when a skater is going well and knows it.

I love seeing Brooklee's smile through the step sequence of her FS when she knows she's having a skate of her life moment, even if she wasn't rewarded for it as she should have been. I loved seeing Max grin and wink at the crowd during his Tron StSq. I love all those little connections that skaters make to let us know that they know we are there. I love seeing a skater project like that.

I dislike bland expressions and no emotions. I dislike performances that reek of a lack of effort.

I like that, too. But smiling and blowing kisses isn't for everyone. Gracie's POTO has her smiling all through her performance and projecting to the crowd. That's completely inappropriate. Why? She is smiling when a man dies in the lyrics. Point is, smiling and all those things you speak of are not appropriate for every performance. And just because someone doesn't have it doesn't mean there aren't emotions.

Some of the best performances in FS have none of what you speak of: kisses, fist-pumps, winking, smiling, or even engaging the audience by attempting to make them cheer or something like that. I think people seem to forget that there are emotions other than happiness and joy that can be expressed on the ice.

 

[andyjo24]

I like that, too. But smiling and blowing kisses isn't for everyone. Gracie's POTO has her smiling all through her performance and projecting to the crowd. That's completely inappropriate. Why? She is smiling when a man dies in the lyrics. Point is, smiling and all those things you speak of are not appropriate for every performance. And just because someone doesn't have it doesn't mean there aren't emotions.

Some of the best performances in FS have none of what you speak of: kisses, fist-pumps, winking, smiling, or even engaging the audience by attempting to make them cheer or something like that. I think people seem to forget that there are emotions other than happiness and joy that can be expressed on the ice.

Amen.:agree:

 

[msteach3]

There is so much I could say about the PCS carry-on over the last few pages. But I won't.

As to Gracie and her weight? I think she's thinner than last year. Almost from the moment she went to Carroll she seemed to lose a lot of weight. It was a bit scary.

Well... she definitely lost weight after going to Frank and seems to have put a few pounds back on over the summer. I actually thought she was too thin at the end of last season and seems healthier looking now. If we're talking about weight (which apparently we are ), to me the skater who needs to lose a few is Liza. Her costumes seem to be designed to hide this.