2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[bekalc]

And that is where we disagree.

I have been watching this sport for a very long time. Too long. Have I seen teens who concentrate on jump jump jump jump *improve* their presentation? Sure. Have I seen them get *anywhere* near the presentation skills that Jason has? Nope. I have not seen numerous examples, I have not seen many examples, I have seen exceeding few examples.

But for me, it's not enough to improve presentation over what was a very low bar to start with. It's presenting a five Toller skate. If someone who is a current jump jump jumper improves enough to present a five Toller skate, as Jason does, I will be the first to stand and applaud. But it ain't easy and it doesn't happen often.

Whether ISU rewards five Toller skates and whether that earns medals is another topic entirely.

Well I care very much about what the ISU rewards. Its a sport and competition. I also want to point out again, how does one determine what is a five Toller skater. I am sorry that's awfully subjective. What one person likes can be different from what another person likes. The jumping elements though-they are far less subjective.... You either land them cleanly or you don't.

This is a sport. First and foremost. Now the very best skaters combine both the technically and the artistic-that for me is when skating is at its best.

The USFSA whose goal is to promote US winning should also care very much about what the ISU rewards...

And as for the other poster who says they trust Jason and his team. The way I feel about it is that Jason and his team have had years. years to develop the quad. He is not super young. So no I am not convinced they are in the right direction. A one time underrotated quad does not equal a consistent jump. It's frankly just not a lot of progress. I mean I am sorry, since Sochi Hanyu has stabilized the quad sal, added in the quad loop and is working on a quad lutz. (And four years ago Hanyu had the quad toe) And Jason still doesn't have the quad toe....

I am not convinced at all about Jason and his team being on the right track.

 

[Mrs. P]

Well I care very much about what the ISU rewards. Its a sport and competition. I also want to point out again, how does one determine what is a five Toller skater. I am sorry that's awfully subjective. What one person likes can be different from what another person likes. The jumping elements though-they are far less subjective.... You either land them cleanly or you don't.

This is a sport. First and foremost. Now the very best skaters combine both the technically and the artistic-that for me is when skating is at its best.

The USFSA whose goal is to promote US winning should also care very much about what the ISU rewards...

And as for the other poster who says they trust Jason and his team. The way I feel about it is that Jason and his team have had years. years to develop the quad. He is not super young. So no I am not convinced they are in the right direction. A one time underrotated quad does not equal a consistent jump. It's frankly just not a lot of progress. I mean I am sorry, since Sochi Hanyu has stabilized the quad sal, added in the quad loop and is working on a quad lutz. (And four years ago Hanyu had the quad toe) And Jason still doesn't have the quad toe....

I am not convinced at all about Jason and his team being on the right track.

Not everyone makes progress at the same rate. And not everyone is precocious as Yuzu is/was (or Nathan is for that matter) -- awesome for Yuzu and he's absolutely amazing, but that should not dictate the career ceiling of a different skater.

Also while the ISU rewards quads and artistry, the ISU does value other things, which is why Jason does get the scores IN SPITE of his technical struggles over the years. He doesn't get PCS cause he wows people with quads he gets them cause he has other things that work. Sure, I'll grant you he's not at the top top right now.

Agree to disagree, I guess. Seems we're just going in circles -- I'm not sure that what I say has much use to you. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[skylark]

On another thread, some have called T & D's Bolero overrated. This is fine, people have opinions. I can tolerate dissent on anything other than Urmanov's programs.

But, speaking as an old geezer who followed the sport closely at that time, I promise you it wasn't just innovative - it was groundbreaking. Earth-shattering. It pushed the sport in a completely different direction. And what made it so unique had nothing to do with the technical elements.

I'm late seeing this post, but I'm intrigued. I watched an old video from my library that tracked T/D's programs, thought processes, and innovation from 1980 to 1984.

What was unique about that team was the combination of Christopher Dean's genius at choreography, dreaming it up and inventing new things, combined with Jayne Torvill's awesome ability and willingness to follow and execute it. Together they brought it to life.

Often I feel, watching skaters, that it isn't enough for a skater to execute the choreographer's vision. Sometimes I feel that there's a lack of integration of the skater's personality, style, and passion into the programs, resulting in a somewhat academic admiration and experience.

That's why my favorites are my favorites. Ashley Wagner, Javier Fernandez, Adam Rippon. There's authenticity woven right into their choreography.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Seriously, all one has to to do is watch Linichuk/Karponosov's 1980 FD and then watch Torvill/Dean's 1984 FD to see why "Bolero" was so amazing. I did like L/K's Foxtrot OSP.

 

[TontoK]

I'm late seeing this post, but I'm intrigued. I watched an old video from my library that tracked T/D's programs, thought processes, and innovation from 1980 to 1984.

What was unique about that team was the combination of Christopher Dean's genius at choreography, dreaming it up and inventing new things, combined with Jayne Torvill's awesome ability and willingness to follow and execute it. Together they brought it to life.

Often I feel, watching skaters, that it isn't enough for a skater to execute the choreographer's vision. Sometimes I feel that there's a lack of integration of the skater's personality, style, and passion into the programs, resulting in a somewhat academic admiration and experience.

That's why my favorites are my favorites. Ashley Wagner, Javier Fernandez, Adam Rippon. There's authenticity woven right into their choreography.

I think you've made an excellent point about Chris Dean's choreography. It makes sense that since he designed their programs personally, they had emotional performances.

He was skating his own vision. She, of course, had to be completely committed to his vision, too.

While I respect your opinions of other skaters you feel share this quality, I have to disagree. Of those you've listed, I enjoy Fernandez's programs, but I don't see that magnetic quality that T/D had. I'm not a fan of the other skaters on your list, but that's OK. Different strokes, as they say.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

There is a big difference between Boyang and Jason. Boyang already CAN skate. He will probably never be Patrick Chan. But he wouldn't be able to do what he currently does, if he couldn't skate. So right now what he needs to work on is getting better at something he already can do. This doesn't mean he's going to be gorgeous and pleasing skater... Or a hugely musical one, but if he works on it he can be decent. And if he works on it he can improve his edge quality etc. People are not asking him to learn something he can't do-they are asking him to get better at something he can already do. And you don't need to be a ballerina on ice in order to do well at the sport.

However, Jason hasn't shown yet that he actually can do a quad jump. And there are plenty of people-no matter how hard they work, or how hard they try are never going to be physically capable of landing a quad...

Quoting to point out again how you are not looking at jumps and skating quality equally at all. The equivalent to "Boyang can skate" is "Jason can jump". The equivalent to "Jason can't do a quad" is more like "Boyang can't do as complex a step sequence with the same quality/precision/ease". You are taking levels of difficulty into account when you talk about the jumps, but not at all when talking about skating. That's a really illogical and biased way to describe that situation (and I mean biased as in quads >>>>>> all that other stuff).

And heck, I love Boyang and have spend hours defending him and his progress here.

 

[mrrice]

I actually don't mind our little disagreements over skaters. I was thinking about it last night after talking with someone about Max. It reminds me of Judging Dance here in Cal. I remember judging an event in a town called Bakersfield. It is very close to the center of California. There were judges from San Diego (South). Me, from Clovis (Central), and the Bay Area (North).

We ALL saw things differently and though I think we got the groups in the right order, our ordinals were all over the place. It was one of the most contentious events I've ever worked and we all talk about to this day. During the post event critique, we just looked at each other in disbelief. How could 3 people sitting on the same panel, seated right next to each other, have seen things so differently. To me, that's why our discussions sometimes get a little heated. It's because we all care so much about the skaters we love and this sport, as beautiful as it is, has no finish line to make it clear who the winner should be.

 

[ice coverage]

Included among the one-minute Worlds videos on the NBC Sports site are edited versions of Nathan's SP and Jason's SP.

http://www.nbcsports.com/video/event/world-figure-skating-championships​

(A worker bee on the NBC Sports site unfortunately does not know what a flip jump is .)

Given that some bootleg videos that are full-length are getting blocked, just mentioning these official shorter ones with Ryan Bradley's commentary.

I am in the U.S. -- don't know whether the NBC videos are geo-blocked outside the U.S.

Good luck to Nathan and Jason with their free skates :yay:. (I hope/imagine that NBC once again will add one-minute versions at the link above.)

 

[bekalc]

Quoting to point out again how you are not looking at jumps and skating quality equally at all. The equivalent to "Boyang can skate" is "Jason can jump". The equivalent to "Jason can't do a quad" is more like "Boyang can't do as complex a step sequence with the same quality/precision/ease". You are taking levels of difficulty into account when you talk about the jumps, but not at all when talking about skating. That's a really illogical and biased way to describe that situation (and I mean biased as in quads >>>>>> all that other stuff).

And heck, I love Boyang and have spend hours defending him and his progress here.

Once again if you CAN do something you have a shot at improving its quality. If you cannot do something you cannot. Boyang did a level four step sequence in the short at Four Continents and got 1.20 in GOE.

Brown got 1.70 for his level four.

So I am sorry you cannot compare the two scenarios. Boyang can do level four spins and level four Step sequences and get positive GOE. The bones are there to do better.

Brown has yet to show he can do clean quads in competition. It sound like they are going well in practice so hopefully I am wrong.

And if Jason earned his spot at Nationals he would certainly not have to qualify his spot but he did not. If you are going to get a spot by committee it's fair to bring up the things lacking.

And 93 so what he was eighth and I think he could easily end up lower than eighth after the free.

 

[Tavi...]

For Karne: Max, Jason, Josh!

https://twitter.com/usfigureskating/status/850899813499404289

 

[karne]

For Karne: Max, Jason, Josh!

https://twitter.com/usfigureskating/status/850899813499404289

I saw this and went !

 

[Tavi...]

Adam back on ice, looking happy and relaxed!

https://instagram.com/p/BSsVtPgj9jO/

https://instagram.com/p/BSr3DhiDp8Z/

 

[skylark]

Adam Rippon showed such determination and excellent motivation in his struggle to get back on the ice after his January injury, in time to do triple jumps in his SOI program. I think doing SOI means so much to him, so he deliberately used his desire to do a good show to heal properly in time for it, which in turn gives him a "foot up" in training for the coming season. He's figured out how to make a setback work for him, and I'm so proud of him!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAuzREfcO5A

 

[skylark]

I get that if you don't like Nathan's skating, you may not enjoy this. But it's a really lovely SOI number, and it shows a few ways that Nathan is more than a jumper. I especially love his dance leap at 2:02.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAOf4vH1Xr4

 

[Tavi...]

Adam Rippon showed such determination and excellent motivation in his struggle to get back on the ice after his January injury, in time to do triple jumps in his SOI program. I think doing SOI means so much to him, so he deliberately used his desire to do a good show to heal properly in time for it, which in turn gives him a "foot up" in training for the coming season. He's figured out how to make a setback work for him, and I'm so proud of him!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAuzREfcO5A

It looks like Adam has been working on his stroking and edges, and that his jumps are coming along. Good for him! Sixteen weeks in a boot is a long time.

I get that if you don't like Nathan's skating, you may not enjoy this. But it's a really lovely SOI number, and it shows a few ways that Nathan is more than a jumper. I especially love his dance leap at 2:02.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAOf4vH1Xr4

It's actually nice to see Nathan do a piece where the jumps are a part of the program rather than the focus. It will be interesting to see if that carries over to his choreo for next season's programs. Jackie Wong thinks that because Nathan's PCS was lower at WTT, he's gonna be motivated to prove that he deserves higher scores - let's see if Jackie is right!

Other guys:

Josh!

https://instagram.com/p/BTwzfYXBDOR/

Josh was at the Skate it Forward benefit last night - it looks like it was skating to give me love? Sadly, there haven't been more than a couple of brief clips and photos - but perhaps if Andromache was there she'll let us know how it went!

I can't tell if it's Josh jumping at the end of this practice clip, but I'll bet Karne will know:

https://instagram.com/p/BTwjUmLB3z0/

Even more other guys:

Max:

Silence? Any word on Max?

Jason:

Last week Jason was posting gorgeous pictures of himself cavorting on idyllic Philippine beaches, diving off a cliff, etc, but I guess next week he's back to work - though whether that's training with Frank in LA or working with Ro on his new FS is anyone's guess.

He and Nathan will both be at Sun Valley this summer but on different weekends.

Anyone else?

Ugh, the off season!

 

[el henry]

Already posted by @Tavi and @Katmari in the Fan Fest forum, but I think it deserves wider circulation:

Jason is starting a YouTube Channel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfDyDwUb5S8&feature=youtu.be

He is clearly a newbie, but since he has that Jason enthusiasm, makes no difference, it's all good. And he also states that he has had to edit his "Dancing through" videos for Twitter, and that the longer ones will be on the Youtube channel. :yes2:

 

[Tavi...]

HeatherC posted her fan cam of Josh on FSU!

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/in...lub-shows-benefits-galas-2017-edition.101166/

Scroll down to post 14 for the link.

 

[karne]

Max:

Silence? Any word on Max?

Per reports in his FF, Max was in Showtime on Ice last weekend. He skated an ex and also as the ladies' man in the Beauty School Dropout number. Max is also going to be in the G2C fundraising show on July 11. No new program or summer comp news yet.

HeatherC posted her fan cam of Josh on FSU!

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/in...lub-shows-benefits-galas-2017-edition.101166/

Scroll down to post 14 for the link.

Also, this kind of makes me really think he's keeping this as his SP this season.

 

[Tavi...]

Per reports in his FF, Max was in Showtime on Ice last weekend. He skated an ex and also as the ladies' man in the Beauty School Dropout number. Max is also going to be in the G2C fundraising show on July 11. No new program or summer comp news yet.





Also, this kind of makes me really think he's keeping this as his SP this season.

Thanks for the Max news - hopefully we'll get more soon!

It would make a lot of sense for Josh to keep this program - it was a breakthrough for him, people love it, his last season was a short one, and he's been out two years. He's already got so much to cope with, not to mention he hasn't been funded for two years, and programs are expensive. I actually wonder if he'll also keep Schindlers list for that reason, but he's already had it two years, so it's less likely - I guess we'll see.

 

[karne]

I actually wonder if he'll also keep Schindlers list for that reason, but he's already had it two years, so it's less likely - I guess we'll see.

I would think it more likely he'd keep Pines of Rome, since that was already completely choreographed and finished, he just never got to compete it.