2016 Cup of China Mens FS

[Sackie]

I just find it interesting that when Chan makes mistakes his PCS is supposed to drop by a lot. Yet when Wagner has one of her worse Free Skates in a long time it is OK for her to still receive high PCS.

 

[riminin]

I just watched Patrick Chan and he was underscored in PCS. When he skates a program like this, no one should be beating him including Hanyu and Fernandez. If they want to put in extra quads they are losing transition marks somewhere else.

So people are taking for granted that Chan is the only skater of all three who doesn't lose transitions with a new quad (with a fall) plus a quad being moved to the second half of the program?

 

[MIM]

You show your own lack of logic and objectivity here.

"Patrick Chan, of all skaters" means NOTHING when it comes to Interpretation. He has always been weaker in this area and regardless any skater can have a bad program and/or fail to perform a program well. When a skater who has always been weaker in this area comes with a bland program AND skates it poorly, disconnected...seriously what do you expect the score should be?

He deserves fair judging, mad reaction from FS fans, and stingy criticism from BOP.

If 10 is perfection of interpretation in skating for a piece of music and 0 is "no interpretation at all", and in Patrick Chan's performance and program he was clearly not doing anything with the music over half the time, then how is a 6.5 undeserved? Like I said before, that could even be seen as a generous. If a skater is doing nothing with the music for over half of the performance then actually perhaps a 5 would be the more accurate score for Interpretation.

This matters a lot because Interpretation is the key to creating audience interest and it is actually more difficult to always be with your music and stay within an interpretation while holding your composure to deliver all of the technical content. We see so many crap positions and random steps and lackluster movements and failure of the skater to move with purpose and connect to the audience because there isn't much of an actual basis at all for how Interpretation is scored. Skaters just get high scores on this component regardless, based upon their skating skills and reputation. That's not how it should be.

Someone can have a 9 in Skating Skills and a 5 in Interpretation.

I agree with you in bold. And I would like to see you in the judging panel being Shin Amano in PCS, as long as you are marking everyone with the same radical and discrete standard you hold here.

In regards to Interpretation scale being 0 to 10, Eluri earned 0.5-2 IN marks at the JGP at Yokohama; It is rough and hard to watch him through the end. I know. But it also sheds an idea that even though the joy in this boy's face is evident and and the (kind) crowd responds with claps, it is hard to translate his performance into PCS because he could not deliver it through skating, the language we speak. I understand this judging and appreciate skating once again that values a feeling generated by nice simple movement and glide on the ice.

While I agree every PCS should be judged in a discrete manner, I am afraid we tend to praise the "on your face" expression and undermine the unspoken language that is displayed on the ice and reject to see what is "embedded" through the tenacious body/skating training. Does "no interpretation" mean really "zero" meaning and feeling to the music, as in a skater standing still on the ice doing nothing?

 

[Li'Kitsu]

If I were to say "Hanyu, of all skaters, getting a 0 GOE on a clean jump is bewildering", it's not me saying he's the be all and end all of awarding high GOE for all people. It's acknowledging that he is known for having some of the best quality jumps and a 0 GOE on a clean jump for him would be bewildering - the same way Patrick Chan (who is known for good interpretation/artistry - save for the haters who believe otherwise) shouldn't be getting lower than an 8.00 (unless he literally skips his choreography and just strokes in between his jumps).

Sure, a statement like this about Yuzu's clean jumps is a perfect comparison to Chan's flawed performance. Yuzuru has gotten low GOE for shaky jumps before, as he should. And remember not that long ago at SC, when he had pretty low GOE on clean jumps, yet you went out of your way to justify that with 'low landings' or 'a lean in the air'? Sounds not very bewildered to me
Again: we are not discussing Patrick getting 'low' marks for categories performance and interpretation for his clean, well skated programs - but for his very faulty ones, like this SP.

Yeah, I'm sure you were protesting Hanyu's PE marks as high as 9.00 for a performance like his SC SP, even though other skaters arguably outperformed him there. :sarcasm:

That mark was too high. His GOE were okay, but the PCS were not. Patrick was similarly gifted though, the real loser there was Taka (what I think I have been saying after the SP, actually). However, Yuzu's high SP PCS did not result in a medal he didn't deserve, which is what happened here - which is why I really complain about it, while I didn't at SC.

That posts holds such a radical statement that that is what counts.

That comment was actually pretty funny. Not just that Chan with a fall should beat clean Hanyu and Fernandez, the reasoning is... they have less transitions. You'd think someone would take a look before who has more transitions. And yeah, I'd guess people who liked that agreed

 

[ancientpeas]

I found the comment. I didn't like it. Good for me because I don't agree with it. I know what they are trying to say but I don't agree.

As for the rest of it it seems like you and I are, in the end, in agreement. Patrick first in the long, Jin first overall. And with that blessed agreement I am done, happy to have found accord.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Sure, a statement like this about Yuzu's clean jumps is a perfect comparison to Chan's flawed performance. Yuzuru has gotten low GOE for shaky jumps before, as he should. And remember not that long ago at SC, when he had pretty low GOE on clean jumps, yet you went out of your way to justify that with 'low landings' or 'a lean in the air'? Sounds not very bewildered to me
Again: we are not discussing Patrick getting 'low' marks for categories performance and interpretation for his clean, well skated programs - but for his very faulty ones, like this SP.



That mark was too high. His GOE were okay, but the PCS were not. Patrick was similarly gifted though, the real loser there was Taka (what I think I have been saying after the SP, actually). However, Yuzu's high SP PCS did not result in a medal he didn't deserve, which is what happened here - which is why I really complain about it, while I didn't at SC.



That comment was actually pretty funny. Not just that Chan with a fall should beat clean Hanyu and Fernandez, the reasoning is... they have less transitions. You'd think someone would take a look before who has more transitions. And yeah, I'd guess people who liked that agreed

Okay. How about this flawed Hanyu performance getting up to 9.25 in IN (and 8.50 in PE) from the judges? 5 falls = 9.25 interpretation, eh... http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpchn2014/gpchn2014_Men_FS_Scores.pdf Did you complain about the silver medal that performance got him? Did you complain about 2014 Worlds when Hanyu's PCS was huge in the SP with a UR fall on his quad (http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2014/wc2014_Men_SP_Scores.pdf -- 9.5's in PE and lots of 9.5's in IN), allowing him to ultimately edge out Machida for his first (and thus far, only) World title? :sarcasm:

For you, "pretty low GOE" means "not mostly +2's and +3s". Hanyu got mostly +2's for his 4S and his 3A, and four +2/+3 for his series. His flip should have been a bit higher, but not mostly +2's/+3s. I gave legit reasons why he possibly wasn't awarded mostly +3s on those jumping passes - and please feel free to dismiss them, while you yourself have yet to provide reason as to why he does deserve straight 3's or close to it on those particular jumps - other than, he is simply Yuzuru Hanyu (which, of course, contradicts the argument you make against Chan regarding reputation scoring).

Also, transitions aren't just number of - it's also quality of said transitions, and arrangement within a program. It's not a tally sheet.

 

[demarinis5]

I miss Daisuke Takahashi. Since this thread is somewhat off topic just thought I mention him too.

 

[karne]

I just find it interesting that when Chan makes mistakes his PCS is supposed to drop by a lot. Yet when Wagner has one of her worse Free Skates in a long time it is OK for her to still receive high PCS.

Sure, she should have got less PCS. So should have Osmond when Osmond made errors. But this the men's thread, so we're talking about the men.

The people talking about the FS are missing the point, rather comically. The issue isn't the FS. I mean, I watched it, and it was basically exactly the same as every other Chan FS ever, but that's not really the point.

The point was the SP, which was overscored. He had errors on every jumping pass which he was not adequately penalised for. He was given massive PCS which I also did not feel was deserved and ended up second.

And since apparently my not liking Chan must mean I'm some kind of rabid Hanyufan, I also think he's overscored. So's Uno. And Fernandez's are generous. Frankly, I think the judges have gone totally bozo with PCS. The problem lies in that they've only gone totally bozo with a select few skaters and aren't really doing anything with anyone else.

 

[Biellmann]

Okay. How about this flawed Hanyu performance getting up to 9.25 in IN (and 8.50 in PE) from the judges? 5 falls = 9.25 interpretation, eh... http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpchn2014/gpchn2014_Men_FS_Scores.pdf Did you complain about the silver medal that performance got him? Did you complain about 2014 Worlds when Hanyu's PCS was huge in the SP with a UR fall on his quad (http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2014/wc2014_Men_SP_Scores.pdf -- 9.5's in PE and lots of 9.5's in IN), allowing him to ultimately edge out Machida for his first (and thus far, only) World title? :sarcasm:

For you, "pretty low GOE" means "not mostly +2's and +3s". Hanyu got mostly +2's for his 4S and his 3A, and four +2/+3 for his series. His flip should have been a bit higher, but not mostly +2's/+3s. I gave legit reasons why he possibly wasn't awarded mostly +3s on those jumping passes - and please feel free to dismiss them, while you yourself have yet to provide reason as to why he does deserve straight 3's or close to it on those particular jumps - other than, he is simply Yuzuru Hanyu (which, of course, contradicts the argument you make against Chan regarding reputation scoring).

Also, transitions aren't just number of - it's also quality of said transitions, and arrangement within a program. It's not a tally sheet.

This post is the bottom line in this thread. Tasteless. It's unbelievable what people are ready to do to "prove a point" :disagree:
And my ignore list is getting longer and longer.....

 

[qwertyskates]

Can we all agree that all 3 - Patrick, Yuzu, Javier, have been heavily favoured and inflated at various competitions (compared to others, Voronov, Machida, Jin, etc..) - and call it a truce?

 

[Blades of Passion]

The overwhelming majority of the skating world would have given Patrick way above 6.5 for IN for that SP

It's pointless to talk about scores without any reference point. You say Patrick Chan can't possibly deserve 6's on a couple components because that is what Juniors receive. There are several points to make here:

1.) It's possible for Junior skaters to have better musical interpretation than Patrick Chan.

2.) Perhaps Juniors don't even deserve 6's on average for that component. Given the state of artistry in the sport these days and the PCS inflation, I'd say that's almost certainly the case.

3.) As has already been said, there should be no general mark for the components. It should not be "oh, it's Patrick Chan, so we can't give lower than an 8 on any component". Each mark should be taken on a case-by-case basis for each program and performance and it's possible to deserve wildly different scores on different components and/or for different performances.

4.) The majority of the skating world looks at that performance from Patrick and sees a huge disappointment. That level of disappointment needs to be accurately quantified in the scores.

Here's my reference point - if the best programs ever in the sport deserve high 9's/10 for Interpretation (things such as Weir's Swan and Otonal, Savoie's Adagio and Mission, Lambiel's Dralion and Poeta spring to mind) then yes Patrick Chan deserves to be in the 6's in comparison for his SP effort here. That is a fair margin and a NECESSARY margin to reflect the huge differences in quality between these programs/performances. If there is no real assessment of the programs and not enough of a scoring difference between them for these qualities, then the necessary musicality/creativity/emotion of programs falls by the wayside. That is exactly what we have seen happen to the sport.

I just find it interesting that when Chan makes mistakes his PCS is supposed to drop by a lot. Yet when Wagner has one of her worse Free Skates in a long time it is OK for her to still receive high PCS.

Wagner didn't have one of her worst FS in a long time, in terms of the performance. Her score was so low because of underrotations, something that doesn't really detract from the performance.

I do think she was overscored on PCS, on an objective scale, but PCS are so crazy these days that it's nearly impossible to even talk about realistically. Compared to what other people are receiving I'd say her PCS were okay.

 

[MIM]

This makes no sense. How soon you've forgotten that last year Patrick Chan qualified for the GPF with 1st + 5th place finishes, the same as Boyang could this year if he had been deservedly placed 1st at this competition. Do you think Chan didn't deserve to go last year??? He bombed both of his SP's on the Grand Prix last season (in fact his SP was a mess the entirety of last season).

Boyang skated a solid LP at Skate America this season after bombing the SP. He then skated an amazing SP at Cup of China and a very strong LP. Yes, his one bad performance can be forgiven, not that it "needs" to be anyway, since all the rules care about are the combined placements of competitions you went to.

This isn't about the GPF anyway. It's about justice and accuracy of judging. Boyang deserved to win this competition. Even if he hadn't deserved to win, it still doesn't mean someone else should be overscored. Patrick Chan threw the competition away in the SP, where he was vastly overmarked for an awful performance, and he continued to be somewhat overmarked in the LP with things like +3 GOE's for a totally average Triple Flip.

This is what I tried to figure out with my exercise in "number soup." It could have happened either way; is Patrick really overscored? when you look at how much less PCS judges gave the skaters for a bad performance relatively to their nice, solid ones, Chan's less PCS is in line with other skaters'. Hence, based on my number soup, I am certain that he deserves his PCS in relation to the PCS Petrov, Brezina, Samohin got.

Calims can be made ;
1. Boyang is underscored in PCS compared to others. (That was my taught watching his score immediately)
2. You have different opinion with the judges about what 5,6,7,8,9 should be in In, Pe, and Co, and Patrick does not deserve YOUR 8+ in In, Pe, and Co.
So, if you give Chan 6 for IN, what would you give Boyang, and the other skaters in the SP? That will make my life easier to understand your intent and standard better.
3. Two (NZL, CAN) judges gave Patrick 3+ GOE on 3F, which I don't agree either. As I mentioned in my earlier post, his GOE for that jump was 1.50 (thanks to the sane seven other judges) vs. comparable 3F by Brezina got 1.10. At the end it was not far off from the norm, IMO.

The "numbers soup" you posted means nothing whatsoever. Nothing. The scores in this sport are virtually pointless to compare and just because a certain score was received, that doesn't mean it was at all deserved. LOOK at the actual performances. As you just said, "what actually happened on the ice".

Complaining about the scores without trying to understand them in a larger context is not my thing... I had to back track and figure out how the judges reacted with NUNBERs in a possibly similar setting. This I believe is my way of communicating with them, and making sense of THEIR scores. By the way thank you for naming.

I think we are talking about two different things (See Claim #2 above). In an ideal, simple world, they would be same, but we are not living in that world.
Look, I think his performance at the SC was quite good, it was not a masterpiece but deserved 45.50 in PCS by the judges. I would like to know what your opinion about that performance. That was the base line for my assumption (i.e. number soup).

Here is Chan's SP from CoC - this is what actually happened on the ice:

AHHH., this is not my favorite program and he did not perform pretty. But after watching his beautiful FS, I feel like I owe him a big favor... okay, I will try my best to know this program a little better.,

* The program opens with the longing, electronic chords of Dear Prudence. In this opening section Chan does a random cross-roll and a random quick inside spread eagle. What does this have to do with the music? Nothing in my eyes. He is moving too rapidly and not portraying the emotional resonance of the music, instead just showing off random choreography and "transitional" movement.

*Perhaps he sees rays of sunlight on his palm through the trees in the woods-the beginning choreo-, and wakes up, moving slowly. some random movements are supposed to be yawning and stretching? I agree he was too rapid and dismissive in "portraying emotional resonance". He does a sharp movement to the lyrics of "Dear prudence". Later, he does jumps when the lyric hits "Dear Prudence", perhaps a foreshadowing??

* When the lyric of "Dear Prudence, why don't you come out to play" enters the music, there is not much change in his skating at all. His arms soon go into airplane stance. His face is emotionless. His body is rigid. He does another random quick cross-roll and then goes into a 4T+3T combo, putting his hand down and losing flow on the last jump. After finishing that element the lyric of "it's a brand new daaaaayyyyy" comes into the melody and all that Patrick does is raise one arm in a half-hearted, semi-circular kind of motion. The lyrics continue onward and again there is nothing really happening in the choreography. Just a random step and setup for a 3Axel.

*He did a counter to the lyrics of "won't you come out to play" and 4T+3T to the lyrics of "Dear Prudence". Nice free leg out of 3T and the flow leading to a long glide with a relaxed arm movement that I enjoyed @the SC is gone due to hand-down. It is true that the raised arm movement can use more life, but not distant from the lyrics "greet the brand new day.

* That 3Axel ends up being a bad jump with a hand down and stepping out of it. After regaining his balance, he does a random mini hop. Why does he do this? That hop has nothing to do with the music. Again, another "transition" for no reason whatsoever. It's not even an impressive transition as a stand-alone kind of move. He then follows that up by doing the flying sit spin that he does in EVERY program. What do these positions of the spin have to do with the music? How do they reflect the nuances and cadence of the melody? Well, they don't. This is just "pasted" choreography, with the musical interpretation being thrown out the window.

*After a 3A at the lyrics "dear prudence" with a messy landing, he missed the timing to the hop before the beautiful FSSp. The mini hop was supposed to synch with the guitar(?) sound per his skate @ the SC, which was quite nice. Although the position of the FSSpin isn't original, the music changes to Black Bird as he changes the position. I think it was nicely placed element to a good music edit.

* The program then continues on with another random arm sweep and more airplane arms. Again, very little honest and emotional interpretation of the music is detected. The music has now changed to "Blackbird" and he goes into his footwork sequence - the steps here just being random in relation to the music. This section of music is even more delicate than the previous melody, but the choreography just ignores it. There is no introspection, no real sense of loss or longing emanating from his body, and even purely on a surface level in terms of speed the movements don't at all follow the cadence of the music. "All your life you were always waiting for this moment to arrive" - A staggeringly important statement of accumulated personal dreaming and fulfillment (or lack thereof) and what is happening with Patrick's interpretation in relation to the music here? Not much. Then during "take these sunken eyes and learn to see", just another random hop.

* Yes, the beginning of the Stsq was out of synth with the delicate music when the lyrics of "Blackbird singing in the dead of night Take these broken wings and learn to fly" playing. Although he catches up @"All your liiiiiiiife." I miss the connection he showed at the SC the most at this section. He did mechanically what he had to do. But, his skating perfectly matches/synchronizes with the phrasing of the music. I did not feel the movement random. It fits the music, but lacks the emotion. The twizzle is off and possibly he lost a level there.

* The footwork sequence ends and the lyric is now telling us "all your life you were only waiting for this moment to be free". Is there any sense of emotional context being provided by Patrick Chan here? No, there isn't. Instead just comes another random cross-roll and a couple steps leading into a Triple Lutz attempt. He ends up getting tilted in the air and only doing a double. Coming out of the jump we get more blank airplane arms and then some back turning 3's into a spin. "Into the light of the dark black night" - Oh, really? I couldn't tell at all.

He missed to cease the important moment. Popped lutz when the lyrics play "Blackbird fly", nice place for a jump. Going into the Spin, it does not reflect the lyrics "Into the light of the dark black night", but the twizzle or back turning 3(?) entrance matches the delicate guitar sound. During the Camel Spin with change-leg and a hand variation, as the music goes off slowly.

* The spin finishes and the music becomes gentler, with birds, and we are given some half-hearted backwards hops. Well, at least the choreography is trying to reflect the music here. Following that comes a re-introduction of "Blackbird singing the dead of night" and we get some random, ineffective choreography (airplane stance and then random upward arms while doing a turn). After that he appears to very briefly be cradling a baby and then does another airplane stance (perhaps literally trying to mimic "learn to fly" in the lyric? Well, that's a least better than nothing I suppose) before he goes into the last spin of the program. This final spin doesn't have a whole lot to do with the music, it's just the same combination spin he always does, and then he ends the program after the music.

I think so. cradling and airplane stance to the lyrics "Take these broken wings and learn to fly." The ending combination spin changes from sit spin to scratch spin position to the lyrics "You were only waiting for this moment to arise"

This program is not a grand, artistic original masterpiece, rather is a soft, simple, light-hearted novelette. Overall, I find the choreography fitting the music, and his movement effortless with speed and quality. It was like a watching an okay run-through. He was somewhat checked out, and emotionally disconnected. It was a let-down performance. Yes, he got 1.01 less in PCS than his solid performance, which seems fair to me.

I agree a lot with your narrative assessment on Patrick's SP here, but is it enough ground to give him more deduction in PCS than the judges gave? At the same time, I question; did I miss what judges saw? Can the emotional disconnection (whatever I feel lacking in his performance) be only a small part of what judges regard for good PE,IN,CO marks? Do I take for granted what his effortless movement and quality skating brings to the performance?

 

[Meoima]

So people are taking for granted that Chan is the only skater of all three who doesn't lose transitions with a new quad (with a fall) plus a quad being moved to the second half of the program?

In fact, Patrick has less transitions than Yuzuru
http://chibura.tumblr.com/post/143787559605/full-translation-of-the-whole-analysis-of-top-men

 

[4everchan]

that was six months ago... i wouldn't be surprised it's still true but we would need to look at this year's data, not last year's to say this is how it is now... also, the number is not everything... but that's another topic.

In fact, Patrick has less transitions than Yuzuru
http://chibura.tumblr.com/post/143787559605/full-translation-of-the-whole-analysis-of-top-men

 

[Meoima]

that was six months ago... i wouldn't be surprised it's still true but we would need to look at this year's data, not last year's to say this is how it is now... also, the number is not everything... but that's another topic.

This year data is that Yuzuru's new SP is even more difficult than his Chopin SP. But of course to write a good article we need time. So let's wait at least until after GPF or after WC for the bigger picture.

 

[4everchan]

This year data is that Yuzuru's new SP is even more difficult than his Chopin SP. But of course to write a good article we need time. So let's wait at least until after GPF or after WC for the bigger picture.

i have no doubt that this year's SP is just as hard or even harder... but that's not my point... I am only saying that this analysis was for last year's programs and to present it at this point can be misleading to some readers.

Also, keep in mind that even if Yuzuru has more transitions than Patrick or Javi, their material was still considered of high quality... the most and best doesn't often translate into much more of an advantage.

Finally, the real deal of interest for me will be the LP as both Patrick and Yuzuru are adding a quad... will it affect their transitions? I think that Patrick perhaps has less than last year's Chopin but I am no expert. I cannot tell for Yuzu yet, I have the feeling the program wasn't finished when I saw it.

 

[Meoima]

i have no doubt that this year's SP is just as hard or even harder... but that's not my point... I am only saying that this analysis was for last year's programs and to present it at this point can be misleading to some readers.
Also, keep in mind that even if Yuzuru has more transitions than Patrick or Javi, their material was still considered of high quality... the most and best doesn't often translate into much more of an advantage.

At the highest level when their PCS are about the same when they do similar layout, then the number of transitions matter. At one one they would just ask, "Why don't you add some counter before this like that guy?" etc
Let's keep it in mind that Yuzuru's SP last season already had 2 quads, so my reply to the comment saying "Chan is the only skater of all three who doesn't lose transitions with a new quad", it is pretty legit because Yuzuru does not lose transitions with more quads.

Finally, the real deal of interest for me will be the LP as both Patrick and Yuzuru are adding a quad... will it affect their transitions? I think that Patrick perhaps has less than last year's Chopin but I am no expert. I cannot tell for Yuzu yet, I have the feeling the program wasn't finished when I saw it.

I think Patrick's LP at this point is quite polished, but will he add something else? He might. Yuzuru's LP at SC was still not finished but I think only compared to his standard. Maybe he will fix the music in some parts, we can't tell for now. The first half of the season seems like experiments of trial and errors for them I think.

 

[4everchan]

At the highest level when their PCS are about the same when they do similar layout, then the number of transitions matter. At one one they would just ask, "Why don't you add some counter before this like that guy?" etc
Let's keep it in mind that Yuzuru's SP last season already had 2 quads, so my reply to the comment saying "Chan is the only skater of all three who doesn't lose transitions with a new quad", it is pretty legit because Yuzuru does not lose transitions with more quads.


I think Patrick's LP at this point is quite polished, but will he add something else? He might. Yuzuru's LP at SC was still not finished but I think only compared to his standard. Maybe he will fix the music in some parts, we can't tell for now. The first half of the season seems like experiments of trial and errors for them I think.

First part : i don't know if the judges honestly will count each transition like that blogger does.. my point is that if it looks like a lot and of quality and with variety, like the top 3... they may be seen as equivalent... then the subjectivity comes into play... is this transition serving the program or not?

Second part : Patrick has said that the program will be evolving throughout the season... even the music will change as Eric and he are still working on it... I think Patrick's strategy is to get to a point where he is comfortable first, then gradually, things get improved... last year, he did that with using placeholder jumps... this year, at Finlandia he had the 3S but right away in SC he had his "final" layout... so I am wondering and many others are as well, because of what he has said about the evolution of the music/program if he will be adding transitions/choreography as the program gets more mileage.

We will see by March Looking forward to seeing Yuzuru's programs in NHK as of course, ACI and SC were a long time ago.

 

[Meoima]

First part : i don't know if the judges honestly will count each transition like that blogger does.. my point is that if it looks like a lot and of quality and with variety, like the top 3... they may be seen as equivalent... then the subjectivity comes into play... is this transition serving the program or not?

The point is Yuzuru does not loose transitions with more quads, which it is proved by the analysis. In fact, Yuzuru can handle the most amount of transitions with more quad. Whether you subjectively do not believe it as serving the program or not, it is subjectively on your side. Some fans here in this forum have believed in the myth that no one else but Patrick have transitions or so. It is not the case. The subjectivity might come in when they say "I like this program or not", but when it comes to counting, it is objective.

Second part : Patrick has said that the program will be evolving throughout the season... even the music will change as Eric and he are still working on it... I think Patrick's strategy is to get to a point where he is comfortable first, then gradually, things get improved... last year, he did that with using placeholder jumps... this year, at Finlandia he had the 3S but right away in SC he had his "final" layout... so I am wondering and many others are as well, because of what he has said about the evolution of the music/program if he will be adding transitions/choreography as the program gets more mileage.

Patrick's LP right now is quite polished, even if he will add some transitions or not, it still looks like it has a shape already. Unlike Yuzuru's LP, it did not look like it had a definite shape at SC.

Looking forward to seeing Yuzuru's programs in NHK as of course, ACI and SC were a long time ago.

Orser's new interview said that Yuzuru is more focusing in the jumps right now in the LP, and the other things like more detailed choreography will come later. Which makes me feel a bit puzzled about his LP. What shape it will be in the end of the season? But it will not be completed at NHK I am afraid.

 

[eta]

Okay. How about this flawed Hanyu performance getting up to 9.25 in IN (and 8.50 in PE) from the judges? 5 falls = 9.25 interpretation, eh... http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpchn2014/gpchn2014_Men_FS_Scores.pdf Did you complain about the silver medal that performance got him?

How mature of you, choosing to compare a perfectly healthy Chan to a just-had-an-accident-moments-ago Hanyu. :scowl:

As for the silver, considering the bronze medalist's score, yes Hanyu still would have gotten it even if his PCS weren't so high.