2016 JGP Ljubljana Cup Ladies SP

[ice coverage]

I only saw Gabrielle compete in Yokohama just recently. She didn't so that well, but she tried her best I tried finding other videos of hers, but couldn't.
Starr beat Nguyen at the US Classic, but not by much. I don't know why they didn't send give her a grand prix though. ...

Starr's free skate results at Glacier Falls were not great, so it makes sense that USFS gave JGP slots to others before her.

Going forward, her extremely recent win at Challenge Skate is a nice feather in her cap, which USFS no doubt will factor in.

The sudden infatuation with Starr here on GS is understandable, but a reality check from Glacier Falls:

SP

Ashley Lin 58.62
Starr Andrews 58.41
Gabby Noullet 48.67
Kaitlyn Nguyen 47.96
http://glacierfalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2016SC_JuniorLadies-QRA_SP_Scores.pdf
http://glacierfalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2016SC_JuniorLadies-QRB_SP_Scores.pdf​

FS qualifying

Kaitlyn Nguyen 110.40
Gabby Noullet 92.39
Ashley Lin 91.32
Starr Andrews 85.81
http://glacierfalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2016SC_JuniorLadies-QRA_FS_Scores.pdf
http://glacierfalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2016SC_JuniorLadies-QRB_FS_Scores.pdf​

FS final

Kaitlyn Nguyen 113.05 (first place)
Gabby Noullet 102.68 (second)
Ashley Lin 98.63 (third)
Starr Andrews 82.80 (tenth)
http://glacierfalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2016SC_JuniorLadies-FR_FS_Scores.pdf​

---

ETA: Small point, but Starr beat Kaitlyn at the US Challenge Skate. Not the same thing as the US Classic.​

 

[YesWay]

Oh wow. I'd think the only GOE bullet points Zagitovas layback could get are good speed, good position + more rotation than necessary. 2 is gone, IMO 7 too with too much traveling. I don't see any originality or creativity, it's the general layback, and she loses too much speed in the last position to get point 3. So IMO, that's a +1 GOE without the traveling, with it 0 to -1.

Alisa Lozko. Both her last spins deserved to be +3's to Alina's/Rika's 0s.
(and potentially more other girls too, but I only watched the top 4. Oh, but Marins layback should have arguably gotten her more points compared to Alina too... yes, they scored higher anyway, but just 'higher' doesn't mean the gap is big enough)

I'm not convinced by your assessment of Zagitova, but I don't feel strongly enough about it to argue.

About Lozko's spins - looking at the protocols, I agree. I think all her spins are wonderful, and she got mostly +3's for her final spin... but almost none for the others? I am surprised by that...

 

[YesWay]

Great observation, just remember the judges are also looking at how the skater enters the spin (difficuly of entry), how quickly they establish position on the specific element and then how many rotations are completed - there are a required min # of rotations but the more speed equals more rotations equals greater GOE.....Traveling is important as it shows entry was not properly established (regardless of difficulty). At the Junior/Senior level, L3 should be basic but L4 is what gets the most marks.

I thought "difficult entry" affected the level of spin, rather than the GoE?

 

[skatelikewind1966]

Starr's free skate results at Glacier Falls were not great, so it makes sense that USFS gave JGP slots to others before her.

Going forward, her extremely recent win at Challenge Skate is a nice feather in her cap, which USFS no doubt will factor in.

The sudden infatuation with Starr here on GS is understandable, but a reality check from Glacier Falls:

SP

Ashley Lin 58.62
Starr Andrews 58.41
Gabby Noullet 48.67
Kaitlyn Nguyen 47.96
http://glacierfalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2016SC_JuniorLadies-QRA_SP_Scores.pdf
http://glacierfalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2016SC_JuniorLadies-QRB_SP_Scores.pdf​

FS qualifying

Kaitlyn Nguyen 110.40
Gabby Noullet 92.39
Ashley Lin 91.32
Starr Andrews 85.81
http://glacierfalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2016SC_JuniorLadies-QRA_FS_Scores.pdf
http://glacierfalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2016SC_JuniorLadies-QRB_FS_Scores.pdf​

FS final

Kaitlyn Nguyen 113.05 (first place)
Gabby Noullet 102.68 (second)
Ashley Lin 98.63 (third)
Starr Andrews 82.80 (tenth)
http://glacierfalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2016SC_JuniorLadies-FR_FS_Scores.pdf​

So in summary, we all must wait to see who makes it to Nationals and who doesn't and then based upon who does make it, we will have to wait to see who earns the right to stand on the podium. Pretty simple

 

[skatelikewind1966]

I thought "difficult entry" affected the level of spin, rather than the GoE?

Level of the spin and GOE have some overlap in finalizing overall score for any given element, i.e.
control throughout the spin (entry, rotation, change of foot, exit), speed or acceleration during spin, balanced rotations (on different feet / in different positions or variations) and doing more than the required number of revolutions plus body positioning while in the spin or air positioning for flying spins not to mention the creativity and originality of all of this (the famous QUEEN YUNA bent leg camel spin!!)

 

[skatelikewind1966]

I see, do you know why she changed coaches so many times?
Who was Kim competing against that made it so hard for her at regionals? Isn't she only 13?
Starr is 15 already.....
Do you think Kaitlyn will be able to compete at the next US junior nationals in January?

1. You'd have to ask her, I have no clue.
2. Kim is 13. She was Novice for 3 years, Intermediate 1 year and Juvenile 2 years. Made it to Sectionals once.
3. Starr is 15
4. She'll have to earn it as it's a qualifying event, though I'd bet she makes it out of the Southwest Pacific Region with no problem, but Pacific Coast Sectionals with the addition of herself and Gabrielle should make this one of the more competitive Sectionals event nationwide. As we have seen so far this JGP season, which skater shows up on competition day may very well be the determining factor.

The challenge is that you only get 2 programs (welcome to figure skating) and if 1 of those is not your best and the other girls skate without error, you may very well be going back home despite being the "better overall fundamentally and technically strong skater". Again, that is why you must compete That is also why a skater like Yuna is/was so great because she was somehow able to put up solid marks competition after competition after competition.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I respectfully disagree...just watch her long program next, it's completely different from her short. Also, technically, I will give Zagitova the edge because she skates on one foot longer. Artistically, she's not my cup of tea.

That's all right...some people like sugar in their coffee and some don't. I like a bold coffee myself.

I actually like Ashley but I don't see any reason not to score her 10pts less here today. I do agree Alina lost some magic in the FS the last time she performed it but maybe she's worked on it since then....lets see. I do think Ashley is promising but as an American I'm frustrated at this stage of the JGP her SP from today was the best we've had to offer. :scratch:

 

[bosskil]

:gaah:

LP♞⚔WR♕✈███

 

[topaz emerald]

That's all right...some people like sugar in their coffee and some don't. I like a bold coffee myself.

I actually like Ashley but I don't see any reason not to score her 10pts less here today. I do agree Alina lost some magic in the FS the last time she performed it but maybe she's worked on it since then....lets see. I do think Ashley is promising but as an American I'm frustrated at this stage of the JGP her SP from today was the best we've had to offer. :scratch:

no worries, I think the best is yet to come......

 

[Mrs. P]

That's all right...some people like sugar in their coffee and some don't. I like a bold coffee myself.

I actually like Ashley but I don't see any reason not to score her 10pts less here today. I do agree Alina lost some magic in the FS the last time she performed it but maybe she's worked on it since then....lets see. I do think Ashley is promising but as an American I'm frustrated at this stage of the JGP her SP from today was the best we've had to offer. :scratch:

Peaks and valleys. Let's remember that it was just a few years ago that Russia ended a 7-year medal drought on the JGPF and World podiums.

 

[Tolstoj]

It's actually not bad, her score was 57.08, and she definitely did not do her best. Zagitova got 68.09. I am not familiar the how the point system works...all I know is if you fall, you get a one pt. deduction if you rotated your jump fully, as for the rest I have no clue.....so what does she need to do to get a score like Zagitova's? Anyone like to explain?

Well there are so many things behind that 11 points gap.

First of all just look at the base value of both programs

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/jgpslo2016/jgpslo2016_JuniorLadies_SP_Scores.pdf

1) if you place your jumps in the second half of the program you'll receive 10% bonus, Alina does all the jumps in the 2nd half so everything has a bonus, while in Ashley's SP only the 3 loop is in the 2nd half.

2) Ashley's combo is a 3Flip-3toe, Alina's 3Lutz-3toe is harder.

The execution:

1) the underrotations usually drops the points quite a bit: Ashley's 3F-3T is underrotated (<) and the 3Lo landing was shaky, meanwhile Alina's jumps are perfectly round.

2) the height in the jumps usually helps to boost the GOEs (i find Alina's jumps bigger), also the variations like doing a jump with two arms or one arm above the head gives the opportunity to increase the GOE of that element: Alina's 3Ltz and 3lo are with the arms, no variations for Ashley's jumps.

Spins -> there isn't so much to talk here, Ashley has beautiful spins, all level 4 (same as Alina, the highest level you can get)

Steps sequence -> Ashley only got level 3, there are so much more contents in Alina's steps sq. (in fact she receives level 4 and even a +3 for that single element)

Regarding the PCS i would say very shortly that Ashley's skating is fine but need some refinements: i find some weird moments in that SP, for example the transitions coming out the first spin and the last spin (1:35 3:15); and as i've mentioned before the steps sequence requires more contents, she is so flexible in the spins, show me that flexibility in the steps or in the transitions more.

Also judges tend to consider a lot the reputation of a skater in the PCS: this is more a psychological thing, not a rule (as far as i remember). Alina has already won JGP France this season with a huge score, so even with a small mistake here she would have received a big score anyway, meanwhile i think this is the first ever international competition for Ashley (not sure about that).

I hope you will find this useful (please don't mind my awful english ), there is so much more to talk about the scoring system and the performances, i've tried to summarize the key points.

 

[hippomoomin]

To me, Ashley Lin's biggest problem is her air position. Her free leg is so loose that I found it aesthetically ugly, though I don't think judges deducted any points from her for that. It is really glaring. I remember there used to be a Japanese skater years ago whose free leg did not really wrap well. I am afraid it has become her habit and it is very hard to change. If she manages to improve her jumps in 3 to 5 years, that air position probably will not get her good PCS.

She appears to me much better than Gaby overall, who seems to be scared of jumps.

 

[Mrs. P]

To me, Ashley Lin's biggest problem is her air position. Her free leg is so loose that I found it aesthetically ugly, though I don't think judges deducted any points from her for that. It is really glaring. I remember there used to be a Japanese skater years ago whose free leg did not really wrap well. I am afraid it has become her habit and it is very hard to change. If she manages to improve her jumps in 3 to 5 years, that air position probably will not get her good PCS.

She appears to me much better than Gaby overall, who seems to be scared of jumps.

Yukari Nakano? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLhYkbbt-_0

I noticed the leg wrap thing too, but I don't think it's the worst in the world. I think it's fixable given her young age. Perhaps it is a benefit that she is getting this scoring feedback now and not coasting through and having to pay the cost later.

 

[hippomoomin]

Yes, it's Yukari. Hope Ashely's coach considers this a problem and tires to fit it.

Yukari Nakano? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLhYkbbt-_0

I noticed the leg wrap thing too, but I don't think it's the worst in the world. I think it's fixable given her young age. Perhaps it is a benefit that she is getting this scoring feedback now and not coasting through and having to pay the cost later.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Peaks and valleys. Let's remember that it was just a few years ago that Russia ended a 7-year medal drought on the JGPF and World podiums.

Always so calm and level headed. Sometimes I just like to say the most impulsive thing I can and then log out :

 

[kalee]

On a separate note -- just watched Matilda Algotsson's short & super happy she kept the Hunger Games program! Like the energy of the song and she had a good clean skate

 

[topaz emerald]

Well there are so many things behind that 11 points gap.

First of all just look at the base value of both programs

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/jgpslo2016/jgpslo2016_JuniorLadies_SP_Scores.pdf

1) if you place your jumps in the second half of the program you'll receive 10% bonus, Alina does all the jumps in the 2nd half so everything has a bonus, while in Ashley's SP only the 3 loop is in the 2nd half.

2) Ashley's combo is a 3Flip-3toe, Alina's 3Lutz-3toe is harder.

The execution:

1) the underrotations usually drops the points quite a bit: Ashley's 3F-3T is underrotated (<) and the 3Lo landing was shaky, meanwhile Alina's jumps are perfectly round.

2) the height in the jumps usually helps to boost the GOEs (i find Alina's jumps bigger), also the variations like doing a jump with two arms or one arm above the head gives the opportunity to increase the GOE of that element: Alina's 3Ltz and 3lo are with the arms, no variations for Ashley's jumps.

Spins -> there isn't so much to talk here, Ashley has beautiful spins, all level 4 (same as Alina, the highest level you can get)

Steps sequence -> Ashley only got level 3, there are so much more contents in Alina's steps sq. (in fact she receives level 4 and even a +3 for that single element)

Regarding the PCS i would say very shortly that Ashley's skating is fine but need some refinements: i find some weird moments in that SP, for example the transitions coming out the first spin and the last spin (1:35 3:15); and as i've mentioned before the steps sequence requires more contents, she is so flexible in the spins, show me that flexibility in the steps or in the transitions more.

Also judges tend to consider a lot the reputation of a skater in the PCS: this is more a psychological thing, not a rule (as far as i remember). Alina has already won JGP France this season with a huge score, so even with a small mistake here she would have received a big score anyway, meanwhile i think this is the first ever international competition for Ashley (not sure about that).

I hope you will find this useful (please don't mind my awful english ), there is so much more to talk about the scoring system and the performances, i've tried to summarize the key points.

thanks...your English is fine. I saw a score sheet and I tried to understand it, but I couldn't. But it's not like I tried that hard to understand it....when I am in a better mood, I will look at a score sheet again, lol.

 

[topaz emerald]

To me, Ashley Lin's biggest problem is her air position. Her free leg is so loose that I found it aesthetically ugly, though I don't think judges deducted any points from her for that. It is really glaring. I remember there used to be a Japanese skater years ago whose free leg did not really wrap well. I am afraid it has become her habit and it is very hard to change. If she manages to improve her jumps in 3 to 5 years, that air position probably will not get her good PCS.

She appears to me much better than Gaby overall, who seems to be scared of jumps.

yukari nakano, I think that's her name......yeah, I'm not sure if she can fix it, but it's not that bad to me. I think it will help if she jumps straighter into the air? maybe it will give her more height? as opposed to jumping in a slant position...because it seems if your jumps are slanted you need to rotate tighter and faster like Marin Honda, Fedichkina, satoko, and trying to think of other girls who jump this way, but I can't.....anyway, if you don't rotate that fast but you have a slant, you better jump higher because you'll hook and lean forward, under-rotate, and not have enough speed to do the latter half of the combo....that's the way it looks to me. But I thin Lin generates enough height most of the time, sometimes she doesnt it seems when she has that slant jump...I don't know if I'm making any sense.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

On a separate note -- just watched Matilda Algotsson's short & super happy she kept the Hunger Games program! Like the energy of the song and she had a good clean skate

I loved it too. Probably my favorite skate of the day

 

[topaz emerald]

Starr's free skate results at Glacier Falls were not great, so it makes sense that USFS gave JGP slots to others before her.

Going forward, her extremely recent win at Challenge Skate is a nice feather in her cap, which USFS no doubt will factor in.

The sudden infatuation with Starr here on GS is understandable, but a reality check from Glacier Falls:

SP

Ashley Lin 58.62
Starr Andrews 58.41
Gabby Noullet 48.67
Kaitlyn Nguyen 47.96
http://glacierfalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2016SC_JuniorLadies-QRA_SP_Scores.pdf
http://glacierfalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2016SC_JuniorLadies-QRB_SP_Scores.pdf​

FS qualifying

Kaitlyn Nguyen 110.40
Gabby Noullet 92.39
Ashley Lin 91.32
Starr Andrews 85.81
http://glacierfalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2016SC_JuniorLadies-QRA_FS_Scores.pdf
http://glacierfalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2016SC_JuniorLadies-QRB_FS_Scores.pdf​

FS final

Kaitlyn Nguyen 113.05 (first place)
Gabby Noullet 102.68 (second)
Ashley Lin 98.63 (third)
Starr Andrews 82.80 (tenth)
http://glacierfalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2016SC_JuniorLadies-FR_FS_Scores.pdf​

---

ETA: Small point, but Starr beat Kaitlyn at the US Challenge Skate. Not the same thing as the US Classic.​

ice coverage, what is the difference between challenge skate and glacier falls? Is one competition more important than the other? just wondering...