2016 US Intl FS Classic Mens SP

[Violet Bliss]

Don't know about the cover, but I do love Elladj and thus SP, I like.

But last year Elladj *won* a Challenger, I had high hopes, and the rest of the year:noshake: unfortunately, his inconsistency equals his charm. Fingers crossed for this year!

Go, Eladj, go!

It's good to see Eladj skating so beautifully. He is more than excelling in swaggering like nobody else.

 

[el henry]

Is it a double standard among the fandom as a whole, or is it individual people who love Jason's skating, or love Adam's?

For instance, you keep characterizing Adam's 4Lz as "planned downgrade falls." With a little adjustment for tone of voice, one could say that about Jason's quad attempts over the past year and a half. But you're not going to characterize Jason's tries that way.

I think they're both adding quad attempts consistently and persistently, having faith that the process and the repetitions under all conditions (practice, ideal, not ideal, competitions) will eventually get the results they're after, and give them the confidence that they can do it in competition.

As someone who has praised and appreciates Adam's skating, and who is of course a Jason uber, I do think there is a double standard. Not from you, let me make me clear, or from any posters in this thread, necessarily (haven't examined enough ), but I agree with @Karne.

Juke, which I *love*, is downplayed as cheesy and immature. Adam does essentially the same type of program, and he's just having fun and expressing his inner diva. :noshake: *Both* Adam and Jason brought it, and both should be praised.

I hated hated hated that Adam kept inserting that darned 4Lz attempt last year. And I said so. It was essentially a planned fall, or a planned UR. That Beatles program, loved it. Didn't need a 4Lz. Try something you can land, Adam.

Adam skates a clean quadless program and gets praise, praise, praise. Jason skates clean quadless programs and gets "where's the quad"? I love clean quadless programs from both.

I will say again, whoever is telling Adam he looks good in mesh shirts should be fired.

 

[noskates]

I love Jason and Adam for totally different reasons. Have been following Adam since he won Junior Worlds. Have cried for him over the past years when he had beautiful programs but fell or screwed up. Always felt he was on the brink. Was very pleased when he won Nationals this year and did well, although not medaling, at Worlds. His choreo is interesting because it was created by a dancer, not a skater. I think that has made a big difference. I love Jason because he is a happy, free spirit and I know that eventually that quad and others will be as second nature to him as the 3A is now. Both of them deliver performances that you remember (or I remember anyway) I think a big difference between the two of them is Adam is skating with demons and somewhere lost his confidence. Thankfully he seems to be getting it back. Jason skates for the love of skating and doesn't have any demons because Kori hasn't pushed him too quickly. Jason has come under a lot of criticism for not having a quad and like Karne I'm pretty tired of reading about it. For someone without a quad he's had amazing success. The quad should NOT be the be all and end all of men's skating. There should be so much more to it.

I look forward to the US Nationals this year to see the two of them throw it down!!!

 

[Mrs. P]

Adam has his share of detractors and critics. They just weren't vocal last night. But they're there.

It will be interesting to see how the judges will respond to the free skates tonight cause the music is quite similar though the interpretation is VERY different.

 

[Tavi...]

Adam has his share of detractors and critics. They just weren't vocal last night. But they're there.

It will be interesting to see how the judges will respond to the free skates tonight cause the music is quite similar though the interpretation is VERY different.

It will be lovely if the feed tonight is good enough for all of us to actually see what's going on in real time! I swear, I was so looking forward to last night, but the poor quality of the feed - it wasn't great all night but then it basically froze for the entirety of Jason's program - totally destroyed that.

And yeah, agreed it will be interesting to see how the judges respond to the two FS.

It will also be interesting to see if Jason can do a better job on the quad tonight (apropos of his comments in the Ice Network article), whether Adam goes for a 4Z tonight, and whether Mura and Elladj get higher PCS!

 

[4everchan]

Here's my two cents

Mura is skating to a flamenco.... in light of this, the costume is appropriate... I have seen horrors by you know who, that had no link to the programs and didn't get as bad reviews I thought Mura could step in a flamenco hall, dressed like this, and people would think it makes sense.

However, aside from his step sequence and a few bits in the SP, his portrayal of the dance was not so great.... Was he bad at it? Definitely not. Actually, IMHO his performance of the flamenco is closer than many performances of tangos we have seen over the years, including the recent Tango from Shoma.... Shoma had a gorgeous costume though and didn't get lower PCS.


So, i think that judges have decided a long time ago that Mura has powerful jumps, but ugly spins and skating skills and will continue to give him silly marks in PCS, no matter how he skates.... that's why I dislike PCS....
PIGEON HOLE

 

[4everchan]

regarding Elladj, his lack of success in his own nationals is detrimental to his international scores.... he is the only canadian skater to have won an international competition without ever placing on the podium at home. He was undermarked here for sure. I thought his program was skated well and had a lot of flow.

 

[Violet Bliss]

regarding Elladj, his lack of success in his own nationals is detrimental to his international scores.... he is the only canadian skater to have won an international competition without ever placing on the podium at home. He was undermarked here for sure. I thought his program was skated well and had a lot of flow.

Eladj is one of the very few recognized and popular skaters without great competitive success. He has been invited to various shows and to galas when he has not finished high. I'm very happy for him.

He's well loved in Canada too but his journey has taken a few detours due to injuries and personal matters. But he has never been under the radar. Lately, he has acquired a quad and improved so much in skating skills, getting more versatile in due course. His podium hope is high at home.

 

[4everchan]

yup... i know and that back flip haha

Eladj is one of the very few recognized and popular skaters without great competitive success. He has been invited to various shows and to galas when he has not finished high. I'm very happy for him.

He's well loved in Canada too but his journey has taken a few detours due to injuries and personal matters. But he has never been under the radar. Lately, he has acquired a quad and improved so much in skating skills, getting more versatile in due course. His podium hope is high at home.

 

[lmarie086]

I've only seen Jason's skate so far, and while I don't especially love the song, I do really like how the program is arranged to it. When Jason is able to skate this clean it's going to be a powerful piece for him.

 

[Arriba627]

Mura got docked for Punishable Costume Selection.

But it could have been worse. In one of the ice shows he had on a lavender shirt and red pants. I think they purposely made him wear that...I like the new costume, except the cuffs remind me of a clown costume, and er -- maybe the fringe is a tad distracting. Very nice program though!

 

[Violet Bliss]

But it could have been worse. In one of the ice shows he had on a lavender shirt and red pants. I think they purposely made him wear that...I like the new costume, except the cuffs remind me of a clown costume, and er -- maybe the fringe is a tad distracting. Very nice program though!

Well, his PCS is a regular offense. He needs Pretty Costume Solution.

 

[gkelly]

i wish there would be another system to measure PCS... there could be points given to speed/height for instance which could be measured electronically,

Average speed across the ice throughout the program, or top speed, speed through steps and turns vs. crossovers, etc., could figure into an electronically measured Skating Skills component . . . along with all aspects of basic skating skill that make one skater more accomplished than another. When and if there technology that can capture all the relevant variables that is cost effective and easy to implement without interfering with the skating or perception of the skating, not only at ISU championships but at all internationals that world competitors enter and at all national championships and qualifying competitions.

By "height" I assume you're referring to jump height. That would be part of the element score for each jump, not program components.

or percentage of multidirectional/one foot skating versus basic steps... etc...

Yeah, that would have to be measured as well for the Skating Skills score.

Would something like the sounds of the blades on the ice also be evaluated electronically?

yeah... the PCS as we know it now, IMHO is just silly.

What about the other components? It might be possible to objectively count the Difficulty and Variety of the transitional moves (probably by human count similar to the features in non-jump elements), but once you take Quality into account you're starting to get into subjective territory.

Pretty much everything under Performance, Composition, and Interpretation are purely qualitative variables that can only be evaluated subjectively by human beings -- preferably knowledgeable human beings all operating from the same set of guidelines and expectations, but you're never going to get 100% agreement about what they perceived or how they translate it to numerical scores.

So either you decide that artistic qualities have no place at all in competitive sport, that nothing about performance quality or artistry should figure into the results, and get rid of those scores completely and don't reward skaters who are good at those aspects of skating, or you just live with the fact that part of the score is inherently subjective.

If you choose the former approach, skaters for whom the artistic side is what brought them to the sport in the first place might quit or never start skating in the first place, and those who put effort into performance and choreography and interpretation only because they're competitive and want to win will stop bothering and just focus on maximizing their objective scores.

And fans who come to skating because they like the artistic side (even if they start learning about the technique after they've been hooked) will tend to lose interest and stop watching.

And then some kind of action or consequences if you're consistently way out of line with other judges. For example, if the Serbian judge is pretty much in line with the other judges for all competitors except Adam and Jason, that might suggest that he really just loves Adam and hates Jason.

I wouldn't even put it that personally. He might just happen to love the things that Adam did especially well that day and that Jason did not so well that day, or consider the things that Jason did best to be less important.

Whereas if he's off for everybody, he might need more training or whatever.

Yup.

As with 6.0 scores, we can only guess what specific aspects of the performances any judge liked best or least. We have more data points that allow us to make more guesses about more details, to say something like "Judge Q must have liked Skater X's transitions a lot more than his interpretation" if the relative component scores show a clear difference. But ultimately we'd have to ask the judge directly to get any more detailed than that.

 

[Layback11]

Well, his PCS is a regular offense. He needs Pretty Costume Solution.

He needs to Pass on Crazy Shirts.

 

[karne]

For instance, you keep characterizing Adam's 4Lz as "planned downgrade falls." With a little adjustment for tone of voice, one could say that about Jason's quad attempts over the past year and a half. But you're not going to characterize Jason's tries that way.

You could probably argue it that way, yes. I don't see it that way because Jason has, IMO, shown distinct, obvious and continual improvement with each of his attempts. I imagine it will not be long before he is landing them clean in competition. Maybe not this comp, but the next one. Adam, meanwhile, has shown zero improvement on his competition attempts except for when he gets an extremely generous tech panel that gives him < rather than his <<, and he has been trying it a lot longer than Jason has. Supposedly he lands them 7/10 in practice, well, you'll have to forgive me for being skeptical about that figure. I've never seen even a practice clip that shows it around, whereas we have definite practice clips of Jason rotating and landing and even putting it in combination.


Anyway, if we want to talk PCS problems, I definitely thought (in my very biased opinion of course) that Andrew could have scored 65...c'mon judges, don't be stingy...and I thought 73 was a little stingy for Brendan, too.

 

[skylark]

Anyway, if we want to talk PCS problems, I definitely thought (in my very biased opinion of course) that Andrew could have scored 65...c'mon judges, don't be stingy...and I thought 73 was a little stingy for Brendan, too.

I don't know what the judges would say. But I really loved Andrew's program and thought it had improved since last year. It got to me and I felt it was from the heart. Brendan is just adorable all around. One thing I loved about that SitR arrangement is how he started off with this grand arrangement of "Good Mornin'." And Brendan portrayed it well, imo.

 

[HanDomi]

Question

Jason has planned quad combo in SP ? Because there is 0 steps to it, so I guess it's not solo one ? Although Mura got away without steps.... which is not good on judges side and they should punish this. I remember Amodio once got -2 or even -3 for clean quad because he had 0 steps

 

[TMC]

Question

Jason has planned quad combo in SP ? Because there is 0 steps to it, so I guess it's not solo one ? Although Mura got away without steps.... which is not good on judges side and they should punish this. I remember Amodio once got -2 or even -3 for clean quad because he had 0 steps

This is definitely my pet peeve; the lack of steps is rarely ever judged according to the rules. Jason got -3 anyway for the fall, we'll see how it's judged if/when he stands up on it.

On the other hand the judging is quite consistent as almost nobody gets the deduction they ought to get.

 

[Tallorder]

Ross. This is a stellar signature type program. No more brain farts please.

 

[Tavi...]

Question

Jason has planned quad combo in SP ? Because there is 0 steps to it, so I guess it's not solo one ? Although Mura got away without steps.... which is not good on judges side and they should punish this. I remember Amodio once got -2 or even -3 for clean quad because he had 0 steps

I think Jason does do a Mohawk and a three turn before his 4T - those are both turns, so may be enough to count as steps. Mura does more or less the same. Adam didn't do a quad in SP here but at US Nats he just did back cross overs into the 4Z - not sure if those are technically steps.

I don't know for sure tho. @karne may know.