2016 US Nationals Senior Ice Dance FD

[Astrid56]

I'm sorry if you feel so offended by some who are using Chock/Bates here as a points of comparision to Shibutanis and put them in negative light/assessment.

But the reality of the outcome produced in US Nationals is that it is inevitable to have this kind of comparision. I am not a fan of Madison and Evan myself, but I can't deny - they can be entertaining for some who like this kind of style/expression on ice. I can't deny they do have skills (they won't be able to high placements without them). But in my opinion, this year is a step back for them comparing to Shibutanis 3 steps forward, let's face it - 3 or more versions of their SD, constant deliberating, switching back and forth is never good to get a solid confidence for the ID segment where you can't win the whole competition, but you can lose it big time. And a constant re-working Rachmaninoff FD - this is a sign they are striving for perfection there, but since the beginning of the season they don't look fully comfortable with it in my eyes.

Last year - a very original, eye-catching SD (with all level 4s at Worlds) and a keeper FD to 'American in Paris' theme, totally their alley. I don't have to be a fan to appreciate good, suitable programs and good execution (if presented). This year - like above, constant switching, changing and still some troubles (I still think that they should have thought about changing their FD instead of SD - SD to Dark Eyes would be maybe difficult at the beginning, but so was their Paso Doble and we know how Worlds looked like...). Moreover - I still cannot see the confidence which was there last season in both technical execution and overall presentation of their programs.

And looking at Shibutanis this season - I see a truly different duo comparing to last season. 2 strong programs, more 'agressive', confident approach, taking a new choreographer on board for their competition program - it all paid off despite of Nepela disappointment at the beginning of the season. And that's the thing which makes me appreciate them even more - they also did have problems and mixed feedback of their programs at the beginning of the season (so many others, like Weaver/Poje), but they really stepped it up since then.

And this difference between 2 teams has shown clearly at US Nationals - hence the whole discussion here including both teams actually. There is really no escape from comparing them head-to-head while they're competing at 'home' event, US Nationals. And this time, with almost tied SD results, FD told the story there.

And the last thing about one team taking another one's program and chances to get good with it - in my opinion this is really pointless dispute and empty argument. For me, regarding American teams - until this very season - Chock/Bates was more stylish team, with characteristic flare for musically, entertaining programs whereas Shibutanis were doing some willy-nilly non-descript programs with no sense at all (at least FDs imo). Then, Coldplay FD emerged and it changed a lot of things - I see now that Shibutanis could do wonders with that modern/contemporary style, even be the best in it.

I do not begrudge Shibs winning the title. What is bothersome ... irksome is the outrageous negativity towards C/B. It wasn't their fault that they were favored then by the judges. Certainly, not their fault that they outshone the Shibs in the previous competitions. Comparisons are great but these should be discussed with respect and courtesy. I don't read much C/B's posts denouncing Shibs' skills and 'persons', have you? Anyway, despite C/B's supposed mediocre skating skills, these won them several awards and they did so in just a few years skating together (they teamed up in mid 2011). Well, the season is not over ... as the saying goes_ "it ain't over till the fat lady sings" .... There's 4CC and the Worlds .... I'm sure the Shibs will win more accolade for their heartwarming FD but who knows what mindsets will triumph by then.

 

[Mrs. P]

I do not begrudge Shibs winning the title. What is bothersome ... irksome is the outrageous negativity towards C/B. It wasn't their fault that they were favored then by the judges. Certainly, not their fault that they outshone the Shibs in the previous competitions. Comparisons are great but these should be discussed with respect and courtesy. I don't read much C/B's posts denouncing Shibs' skills and 'persons', have you? Anyway, despite C/B's supposed mediocre skating skills, these won them several awards and they did so in just a few years skating together (they teamed up in mid 2011). Well, the season is not over ... as the saying goes_ "it ain't over till the fat lady sings" .... There's 4CC and the Worlds .... I'm sure the Shibs will win more accolade for their heartwarming FD but who knows what mindsets will triumph by then.

FWIW, there was a time that the Shibs was not in high favor either. The Shibs were crucified back in 2011 for getting the bronze medal too early (basically, they benefited from errors by Pechalat and Bourzat and Weaver and Poje) and that stuck for many, many years, arguably the rest of the last Olympic cycle. And when they struggled, there were years of how the sibling dynamic didn't work, how Maia was not personable, so on and so forth.

It comes with the territory of being at the top -- there's going to be haters. AT the same time, as pointed out, there are valid criticisms of Chock and Bates' programs this season. Namely, their level issues. That was their punch card in past years, it's a major reason that they beat the Shibs in the first place. So there is irony for me, that this season, the Shibs beat them on levels.

Now having seen both teams live back at 2014 Nationals, I can say that Chock and Bates handily beat the Shibs. No doubt. In the SD especially -- the Shibs were nervous and missed levels while Chock and Bates sparkled in their Big Hollywood SD. And while they made a valiant effort with the Michael Jackson FD, it didn't quite work in execution. Also, I was indifferent to them before (not a fan but didn't really have the deep dislike many seem to have), but after seeing them live, I can understand a little more about why Chock and Bates have scored well and resonate well with the judges. As VietGrlTerifa pointed out, they have performance ability, especially Maddy. Another key asset is speed, lots of it. And compared to the Shibs at the time, they did skate a lot bigger and have a bigger presence.

I look forward to seeing both teams in Boston again and seeing how they compare now.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I do not begrudge Shibs winning the title. What is bothersome ... irksome is the outrageous negativity towards C/B. It wasn't their fault that they were favored then by the judges. Certainly, not their fault that they outshone the Shibs in the previous competitions. Comparisons are great but these should be discussed with respect and courtesy. I don't read much C/B's posts denouncing Shibs' skills and 'persons', have you? Anyway, despite C/B's supposed mediocre skating skills, these won them several awards and they did so in just a few years skating together (they teamed up in mid 2011). Well, the season is not over ... as the saying goes_ "it ain't over till the fat lady sings" .... There's 4CC and the Worlds .... I'm sure the Shibs will win more accolade for their heartwarming FD but who knows what mindsets will triumph by then.

Fair points, but as Mrs. P pointed out, the Shibs were public enemies number 1 in ice dance after their 2011 Worlds bronze win. Maybe not so much here but at another board I frequent, the negativity swept against them swiftly and harshly. People even called their success "the death of ice dancing". That led to many being gleeful at their fallen Worlds standings in the following seasons and so many comments about their lack of potential, stagnation, blandness, and the need to find new partners as they were limited. People were waiting with baited breath for the Germans, Danish, and Coomes/Buckland to overtake them permanently and a lot of Hubbell fans thought she and Zach were going to overtake them and wanted them to. People even gossiped that their parents were "abusing" them and saying that the fact that their mom supposedly not letting Maia date when she was 16/17 was a sign of that and painted their mom as a stage parent despite the fact that they obviously are happy and healthy and full of energetic personality and there have been no evidence of their mom being a stage parent whatsoever.

Also, the bad will Marina received from the whole Igor being forced out of Canton mess and how she supposedly mistreated V/M in favor of D/W also seeped into people's negativity towards the Shibs. Some even started a rumor that it was the Shibs' parents that led to the ousting of Igor. When pressed for evidence or where they heard it or even details, none were given.

In the press conference, despite their abilities to focus on the positives, they explicitly mentioned all the comments they heard over the years "in the periphery" of people gossiping about their lack of potential and the need to find new partners or retire.

You're right that there is outrageous negativity towards Chock/Bates, but I disagree with you about not reading C/B posts denouncing the Shibs. I read them on YouTube AND to be honest, your posts are full of passive-aggressive comments regarding the Shibs and their programs this season.

 

[chloepoco]

True but it seems a snide reference to C/B's skating is necessary to highlight/underscore Shibs' greatness. Hmmmm.

But aren't you doing the same thing with your snide remarks about the inability of the Shibutani's to perform to the same type of music as Chock/Bates? Or your sarcastic comments regarding their talents?

 

[Astrid56]

FWIW, there was a time that the Shibs was not in high favor either. The Shibs were crucified back in 2011 for getting the bronze medal too early (basically, they benefited from errors by Pechalat and Bourzat and Weaver and Poje) and that stuck for many, many years, arguably the rest of the last Olympic cycle. And when they struggled, there were years of how the sibling dynamic didn't work, how Maia was not personable, so on and so forth.

It comes with the territory of being at the top -- there's going to be haters. AT the same time, as pointed out, there are valid criticisms of Chock and Bates' programs this season. Namely, their level issues. That was their punch card in past years, it's a major reason that they beat the Shibs in the first place. So there is irony for me, that this season, the Shibs beat them on levels.

Now having seen both teams live back at 2014 Nationals, I can say that Chock and Bates handily beat the Shibs. No doubt. In the SD especially -- the Shibs were nervous and missed levels while Chock and Bates sparkled in their Big Hollywood SD. And while they made a valiant effort with the Michael Jackson FD, it didn't quite work in execution. Also, I was indifferent to them before (not a fan but didn't really have the deep dislike many seem to have), but after seeing them live, I can understand a little more about why Chock and Bates have scored well and resonate well with the judges. As VietGrlTerifa pointed out, they have performance ability, especially Maddy. Another key asset is speed, lots of it. And compared to the Shibs at the time, they did skate a lot bigger and have a bigger presence.

I look forward to seeing both teams in Boston again and seeing how they compare now.

Valid points pointed out in this post which mostly come down to performance ability. The Shibs are fabulous skaters but they don't have the inherent 'flair' to do certain characters and that's not bad. Some are born with natural talent to perform certain things. They may have youth on their side to portray a 'Michael Jackson' but one has to possess a certain unique 'charisma' to do him well. 'Coppelia' was right down their alley _ it's a different character that can be performed easily with constant practice but certain roles are hard to play especially the ones requiring natural timing and flair. I know whereof I speak I formally studied theatre and dance, I know what characters I can perform with bravura and what I cannot do and this does not diminish the talents I might possess. As regards this season performances, each team has done very well ... C/B struggled mostly because of their unfortunate choice of music, not skating skills. How many teams struggled with their programs and did remarkably well? C/B changed SDs 3 times and still scored well. They changed choreographically their FD at least 3 times and did well. Tanith spoke about them having barely two weeks to master the programs and yet they earned silver medals for the endeavor? Not bad! Can you name other teams in history who accomplished this feat? No team in recent memory had done so with much success. Someone spoke about Maddie using toepick and supposedly lacking edge control. Funny, Tanith herself highlighted this very remarkable skill in her commentary _ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnFUP3XVVYY see this section 604 / 6:47 .

 

[Astrid56]

But aren't you doing the same thing with your snide remarks about the inability of the Shibutani's to perform to the same type of music as Chock/Bates? Or your sarcastic comments regarding their talents?

Did I criticize them about their skating skills? No! I commented on their ability to perform certain characters and that's valid. Even the great performers had weaknesses _ Bob Fosse was a perfect example often cited for his bad posture.

 

[dcnative]

Being happy for the Shibutani's doesn't mean anyone is being negative towards Chock/Bates.

I did not connect the two at all.

 

[momrk]

Being happy for the Shibutani's doesn't mean anyone is being negative towards Chock/Bates.

I so agree. Well said.

 

[Mrs. P]

Valid points pointed out in this post which mostly come down to performance ability. The Shibs are fabulous skaters but they don't have the inherent 'flair' to do certain characters and that's not bad. Some are born with natural talent to perform certain things. They may have youth on their side to portray a 'Michael Jackson' but one has to possess a certain unique 'charisma' to do him well. 'Coppelia' was right down their alley _ it's a different character that can be performed easily with constant practice but certain roles are hard to play especially the ones requiring natural timing and flair. I know whereof I speak I formally studied theatre and dance, I know what characters I can perform with bravura and what I cannot do and this does not diminish the talents I might possess. As regards this season performances, each team has done very well ... C/B struggled mostly because of their unfortunate choice of music, not skating skills. How many teams struggled with their programs and did remarkably well? C/B changed SDs 3 times and still scored well. They changed choreographically their FD at least 3 times and did well. Tanith spoke about them having barely two weeks to master the programs and yet they earned silver medals for the endeavor? Not bad! Can you name other teams in history who accomplished this feat? No team in recent memory had done so with much success. Someone spoke about Maddie using toepick and supposedly lacking edge control. Funny, Tanith herself highlighted this very remarkable skill in her commentary _ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnFUP3XVVYY see this section 604 / 6:47 .

The Shibutanis also made excessive change in their dances. While the Michael Jackson wasn't a huge win, they did a huge rework that made it a whole lot better at Nationals and get them on the podium and on the Olympic Team.

They've reworked their waltz FD last season and while it didn't beat Chock and Bates last season it was good enough to get a top 5 finish at Worlds.

And heck, this VERY FD. We all remember how much of a mess it was back in October when they lost to Gilles and Poirier and Coomes and Buckland.

And while the Shibs had their struggles, they still managed to podium every year in seniors, medal at all but one GP (again not including the GPF).

Of course all that said, a lot of their programs were a miss and I think their fans would agree. Such as that Missing polka.....that piece was not meant to be a polka.

I'm glad that Chock and Bates have fans (and they should), but hard work and successful changes isn't exclusive to those two.

 

[Astrid56]

I don't know why I bother commenting ... I think it's funny being labeled as passive-aggressive.

Anyway, I am talking about performing ability, not necessarily on the skating skills level. Two very different things. As regards U-tube comments, I swear haters use it as a vehicle to express their dislike for particular skaters without regard to quality of performances. Also, you compare how many watch the teams' performances _ C/B had only, I think, 1400 views whereas S/S have so far 20,000 views - you don't have to acknowledge the fact that viewers intentionally preferred watching the Shibutanis and when they do watch C/B they merely want to post negatives. Why this comment? No C/B fan would intentionally tap the dislike key and these outnumber the likes. Anyway, I'm done with commenting - I'll concentrate on watching the performances, take vacation for a while from this forum.

 

[fairly4]

great job to all

Congratulations Shibutani's on 1st win.

chock and bates for 2nd and Hubbell and Donohue for 3rd. we are sending a forminable team. I can see all 3 in top 6 and possible 1-2 finish if skate well and fight for it.

 

[tulosai]

You know, it is possible to like both Chock Bates and the Shibs. I'd recommend that more people try it- it makes watching dance a lot more enjoyable once you can bring yourself to appreciate a wide variety of teams for their strengths and cheer for all of them rather than devoting energy to pointless flame wars.

 

[Sloopy]

Fair points, but as Mrs. P pointed out, the Shibs were public enemies number 1 in ice dance after their 2011 Worlds bronze win. Maybe not so much here but at another board I frequent, the negativity swept against them swiftly and harshly. People even called their success "the death of ice dancing". That led to many being gleeful at their fallen Worlds standings in the following seasons and so many comments about their lack of potential, stagnation, blandness, and the need to find new partners as they were limited. People were waiting with baited breath for the Germans, Danish, and Coomes/Buckland to overtake them permanently and a lot of Hubbell fans thought she and Zach were going to overtake them and wanted them to. People even gossiped that their parents were "abusing" them and saying that the fact that their mom supposedly not letting Maia date when she was 16/17 was a sign of that and painted their mom as a stage parent despite the fact that they obviously are happy and healthy and full of energetic personality and there have been no evidence of their mom being a stage parent whatsoever.

Also, the bad will Marina received from the whole Igor being forced out of Canton mess and how she supposedly mistreated V/M in favor of D/W also seeped into people's negativity towards the Shibs. Some even started a rumor that it was the Shibs' parents that led to the ousting of Igor. When pressed for evidence or where they heard it or even details, none were given.

In the press conference, despite their abilities to focus on the positives, they explicitly mentioned all the comments they heard over the years "in the periphery" of people gossiping about their lack of potential and the need to find new partners or retire.

You're right that there is outrageous negativity towards Chock/Bates, but I disagree with you about not reading C/B posts denouncing the Shibs. I read them on YouTube AND to be honest, your posts are full of passive-aggressive comments regarding the Shibs and their programs this season.

Thank you for reminding me how ugly uber fans can be. I cannot believe what I'm reading with the whole C/B are victims of Shibutani fans because they are celebrating a great win. Can't us fans of Ice Dancing just enjoy how magnificent the performance was for the WINNERS without pumping up the non-winners by throwing shade on the winners? If the hate is taking place for C/B on Youtube, leave it on Youtube. I can understand the frustration of the whole thing, but let's not ruin the some fans opportunity to celebrate Shibutani's moment on this site, in this thread. :noshake:

Now with that being said, I just want to say thanks to Peter T. for showing us what good choreography can do for a technically proficient team that was being swallowed up by moldy, old-fashioned choreography...Paso Doble from 2014 excluded.

 

[Mrs. P]

So since there were other people in this FD....

My mind is blown at the improvement by Anastasia Cannuscio and Colin McManus in just the last two years!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mitb9bmJNX8 <---2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjPiMuEZXYo <--- 2016

They always have been great performers (see last year's delightful Dance Macabre FD) but man, the amount of polish in this program is fantastic. And the edges much deeper and secure. i remember that after 2014, they were feeling a bit discouraged by being stuck in 6th place for a few years, but decided to double down instead of quit. Their coaches sent them to Montreal to be trained with DuBruil and Laurzon and they really have worked to do interesting programs too, such as this year and last year's FD.

Their K&C moment was definitely the second fave for me....so delighted for them to get a medal after all these years.

 

[humbaba]

...we are sending a forminable team. I can see all 3 in top 6 and possible 1-2 finish if skate well and fight for it.

Wish I could share your optimism. I'm afraid that, internationally, the placements at Nats is going to hurt Chock and Bates without helping the Shibs very much.
Are the judges at Four Continents only from 4C countries? That would probably be better for the American teams. Worlds being in Boston also might blunt any efforts to use the Nationals results to dump both teams.

Still, my gut feeling is that Wea/Po and the top European teams are going to benefit the most from the Shibs placing over C/B.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

It's not as if the Shibs were super far behind the top three at GPF. Had they gotten at least one level 4 on their pattern in the SD and the level 4 for their spin like they had all season prior they would have won bronze over C/L and if they received a second level 4 for the pattern they would have won silver over C/B albeit due to Madison's twizzles error. So the Shibs are already seen as a top international team this season. Plus, unlike the national judges, the international judges at GPF actually placed the Shibs higher than C/B in two PCS categories.

 

[Skater Boy]

I am so happy for the Shib Sibs. They too, yes, like many teams, have worked so hard. Well deserved and such joy. I like how they are able to correct from previous competitions and get the levels. And they use their strengths well. They do seem young but they use it well. As for the world scene let C and B and Shibs celebrate a bit. Both are medal contenders but I am not sure they deserve 3/6 placements at worlds There are some other contenders C and L, France, Canada and a couple of Russian teams. I also think there is a darkhorse which could be at the bottom or just out of the top ten or imho even in fifth or sixth - Gilles and porier though I tend to think they will be in about ninth this year. Anyone can win worlds this year with the French missing so much - but the judges really like them and they pick smart programs that really focus on their strengths which I think serves them well. W and P are too inconsistent. I am glad the judging is working where the Shibs can move up pass the world silver medallists. Personally I am cheering for W and P or the shibs or a Russian win - because I don't think any of these teams deserves to dominate. they are all good - W and P, French, Italy, Shibs and C and B as well as B and S from Russia. It would be fitting if v and m who hinted they might return come back and win gold at the olys because it is almost "fair" lol that none of these good teams get the top prize. So hard to choose.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I also think if there's any politicking going on with this win, it's more telling the international judges that they don't have to hold back on the Shibs anymore as they are seen as a team that's good enough to win titles now, rather than telling them that C/B are inferior and stop scoring them the way they have been scoring them in the past two seasons. Even in the most classic ice dance politicking scenario, what can happen is what happened to Maniotte/Lavanchy and Anissina/Peizerat in 1997. M/L were the established French skaters who won world medals but the French Fed put A/P first domestically in 1997. The Euro and Worlds judges placed M/L ahead by one placement but both failed to medal at Worlds. However, that set up A/P for an Olympic bronze medal and the rest is history. For some reason, I just don't see the USFS playing the game the way the French Fed did, for whatever reason. Naivety possibly. Also, placing D/W over the reigning world silver medalists, B/A, didn't hurt USFS' medal chances for Vancouver though I know the situation is different as D/W were winning the fall events that season and broke 200 in total score (absent DomShabs) but so did B/A (though their highest scoring total was 195+) but we never saw them head-to-head until Nationals due to B/A withdrawing from GPF.

 

[Sugarpova]

You know, it is possible to like both Chock Bates and the Shibs. I'd recommend that more people try it- it makes watching dance a lot more enjoyable once you can bring yourself to appreciate a wide variety of teams for their strengths and cheer for all of them rather than devoting energy to pointless flame wars.

best post out there!
I do like Madi & her diva persona. But I absolutely hate the FD.
Some things ppl praise in her absolutelty should NOTT be present when u skate to Rach!
This dance isnt supposed ot be hot/sexy.

 

[Sugarpova]

Wish I could share your optimism. I'm afraid that, internationally, the placements at Nats is going to hurt Chock and Bates without helping the Shibs very much.
Are the judges at Four Continents only from 4C countries? That would probably be better for the American teams. Worlds being in Boston also might blunt any efforts to use the Nationals results to dump both teams.

Still, my gut feeling is that Wea/Po and the top European teams are going to benefit the most from the Shibs placing over C/B.

hmm as I thought about this
I do hope it will help Shibs internationally but I can see this as a step back in C/B scoring & some Euro teams' chance to be closer to them/overtaking them (well as a SinKats fan ofc its a happy news to me considering all things SA)))))