2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[el henry]

Frankly I don’t think he needs it. There are a ton of people who find his performances charismatic. Just refer to comments under these videos, for example. https://youtu.be/8IWrJOhUVl0
https://youtu.be/uUCI0Cxtge4
Sure, he doesn’t perform the same way as Jason, but neither can I see Jason do a piece like this the way Nathan does it. Just because he doesn’t skate in a style which you prefer, it doesn’t mean he doesn’t have great performance skills which resonate with others.

I understand that there are many folks who think Nathan is there already. I have watched his performances, I hope with an unprejudiced eye, and I do not find myself among that number.

But you are absolutely right that it is my opinion and only my opinion. And for those who find great pleasure in his performances (and I am not being snarky, I mean this), I hope that he brings you joy during the Olys

 

[Mrs. P]

I understand that there are many folks who think Nathan is there already. I have watched his performances, I hope with an unprejudiced eye, and I do not find myself among that number.

But you are absolutely right that it is my opinion and only my opinion. And for those who find great pleasure in his performances (and I am not being snarky, I mean this), I hope that he brings you joy during the Olys

I think Nathan has improved, certainly, and it shows in the SP. I agree the SP is a great fit for him. The FS, not so much. I still can't remember that performance at Nationals other than the jumps, TBH. (But again, that could have been mainly been shock because of Jason bombing right before hand).

 

[yyyskate]

Nathan is doing 5 quads in his long, and Jason is doing NONE. ask any skater (e.g. Roman) who understand figure skating how much more difficult it is.
How much more artistic score you think Jason deserve could be fair for a 0 quad program compare to Nathan's 5 quad program.
Also, could watch Nathan's program with all triple jumps when he is like 10,12 years old.

 

[Mrs. P]

Nathan is doing 5 quads in his long, and Jason is doing NONE. ask any skater (e.g. Roman) who understand figure skating how much more difficult it is.
How much more artistic score you think Jason deserve could be fair for a 0 quad program compare to Nathan's 5 quad program.
Also, could watch Nathan's program with all triple jumps when he is like 10,12 years old.

Well it doesn't matter, does it at this point. Nathan is at the Olympics and Jason isn't. Just sharing my impressions -- I actually really like the FS when he debuted it at U.S. Classic, but it's just not as impressive now because he's trying to put in those extra quads. And I like Nathan's junior programs. I miss that Nathan, honestly.

I totally understand Nathan's strategy at this point -- there is a WOW factor when he hits those quads. And when I say I don't remember much else from his FS besides the quads, well, I'm saying the quads are good.

Jason's programs are still very difficult, quad or no, from an overall program standpoint. Judges recognize that. He's in the top 5 in PCS. Jason average PCS this season is actually 91.00, a little over 3 points higher than Nathan's average, so there is a bit of a gap -- but obviously Nathan makes up like five fold with his TES score.

 

[yyyskate]

Well it doesn't matter, does it at this point. Nathan is at the Olympics and Jason isn't. Just sharing my impressions -- I actually really like the FS when he debuted it at U.S. Classic, but it's just not as impressive now because he's trying to put in those extra quads.

And I like Nathan's junior programs. I miss that Nathan, honestly.

Jason is a lovely skater, I love watch him skating, this discussion has nothing to do with whether he made to the OG or not.
but tbh, 5 quads program cannot be compared to none quad program.
I sometimes can find some truly artistic junior girls doing doubles, everything else they do is purely dancing on ice. but their PCS score will not be comparable to skaters who is doing triples, even if the latter may looks not as pretty outside the jumps.

 

[Mrs. P]

Jason is a lovely skater, I love watch him skating, this discussion has nothing to do with whether he made to the OG or not.
but tbh, 5 quads program cannot be compared to none quad program.
I sometimes can find some truly artistic junior girls doing doubles, everything else they do is purely dancing on ice. but their PCS score will not be comparable to skaters who is doing triples, even if the latter may looks not as pretty outside the jumps.

The judges don't seem to dock Jason for a quadless program he got 91+ at 4CC -- should they? I don't think so, but I get the argument you're trying to make.

Jason is a really odd exception for the judges -- maybe he's getting some advantage by being from the US -- but he's probably one of the skaters who can get high caliber PCS in spite of not having a quad.

Nathan's PCS isn't that bad though-- high 80s is still very good. As I said, I understand his strategy. But there are tradeoffs.

 

[yyyskate]

You think who forced Nathan to push for 5 quads in a FS, it is when he is doing 4 quads he still cannot beat "artistic" skaters with no quad.

Also, I never argue about the Jason's PCS here. I just hope that people can understand how difficult it is to do a 5 quads program.

 

[Mrs. P]

You think who forced Nathan to push for 5 quads in a FS, it is when he is doing 4 quads he cannot still beat "artistic" skaters with no quad.

You're saying the way Jason's (or any "artistic" skater) scored is to blame for Nathan doing 5 quads? Nathan seems to do the quads because he wants to. He's made his mark on this sport. He's getting plenty of attention. Nathan is all over my twitter feed, honestly, he's doing fine.

 

[yyyskate]

You're saying the way Jason's scored is to blame for Nathan doing 5 quads? Nathan seems to do the quads because he wants to.

I mean what I mean, I hope you understand.

 

[Mrs. P]

I mean what I mean, I hope you understand.

Well, why don't you clarify it for me if I'm misunderstanding you? I mean this sincerely.

 

[brightphoton]

Well, why don't you clarify it for me if I'm misunderstanding you? I mean this sincerely.

Remember, Jason won the 2015 Nationals, and with insane PCS, 90+. And he did it with no quad and several double axels.

I didn't realize at the time, but Nathan was at the 2015 Nationals, and placed in the middle of the pack. An adorkable ponytail gives one such a huge built-in PCS advantage. The only way to beat that is with an arsenal of quads.

 

[Mrs. P]

Remember, Jason won the 2015 Nationals, and with insane PCS, 90+. And he did it with no quad and several double axels.

I didn't realize at the time, but Nathan was at the 2015 Nationals, and placed in the middle of the pack. An adorkable ponytail gives one such a huge built-in PCS advantage. The only way to beat that is with an arsenal of quads.

Nathan didn't skate that well at 2015 Nationals -- he had an injury. He didn't even attempt quads there!

You're thinking of 2016 Nationals. And Jason wasn't there cause he was injured.

But it's neither here nor there -- Nathan's made his mark on the sport and he's a two-time U.S. champ and is a gold medal contender. People still like Jason's skating in spite of the lack of quads.
I don't see the point of blaming Jason, Adam or any other skater who chooses to make the most of the strengths. Nathan can do the quads and that's why he's the guy people are hyping, not the other two.

 

[brightphoton]

Nathan didn't skate that well at 2015 Nationals -- he had an injury. He didn't even attempt quads there!

I'm 70% sure that Nathan tried one quad but fell horribly, but that doesn't count for much, even if it's true

Anyway, the point is, Nathan had, on paper, the same technical content as Jason, but much much lower PCS. He had to land quads, and lots of them, if he wanted to compete with Jason

Edit: also, I don't mean, "Jason" as in "it's personally Jason's fault that Nathan has to do so many quads"
I mean it more like, some skaters get such a big PCS cushion, and the only way to compete against that is to vastly increase technical content. In the US's case, our artistic skater is Jason Brown

 

[Mrs. P]

Whatever reason Nathan had to increase his technical content, he ended up making history at U.S. Championships.
Whatever my personal preference regarding his programs/performance, doesn't matter. He is still a gold medal contender.

And Jason needs the quad, no question. More than one. But he's making the most of what he's got. He just didn't do that at Nationals, which is unfortunate.


ETA: Just to close a loop, here's the protocals from 2015 Nationals : http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2015/2015_us_fs_champs/results.html
YOu're right that Nathan missed the 4T. But he didn't do a 3A.

 

[brightphoton]

Ahhhhhh, I want to discuss Nathan and Olympic gold medal, but after watching him at the team event, I'm getting superstitious about jinxing.

So I'll be quiet about that, until Feb 15 and 16!

 

[yyyskate]

some perspective, How difficult it is to do just one quad, look at none other than how difficult it is for Jason to attempt a quad.

 

[Mrs. P]

some perspective, How difficult it is to do just one quad, look at none other than how difficult it is for Jason to attempt a quad.

Absolutely. But does that mean Jason should get lower PCS? Are you advocating for extra weight on PCS for multiple quad programs? Kinda like a kid getting a weighted GPA for doing AP/Honor classes?

 

[karne]

Remember, Jason won the 2015 Nationals, and with insane PCS, 90+. And he did it with no quad and several double axels.

I didn't realize at the time, but Nathan was at the 2015 Nationals, and placed in the middle of the pack. An adorkable ponytail gives one such a huge built-in PCS advantage. The only way to beat that is with an arsenal of quads.

How was 90+ PCS for Jason's FS at 2015 Nationals insane? Tristan was a stunning program. And hang on, you're complaining about Jason getting 90+ PCS but not Nathan?

Anyway, the point is, Nathan had, on paper, the same technical content as Jason, but much much lower PCS.

Please tell me you're not actually, seriously suggesting that Nathan Chen should get the same PCS as Jason Brown. He is not even remotely close to that level. There is now no other skater in the US men who is. The only one who could match him is now sitting aside receiving treatment for brain damage.

I mean it more like, some skaters get such a big PCS cushion, and the only way to compete against that is to vastly increase technical content.

PCS and TES should NOT be linked. Jason gets big PCS because he deserves it.

 

[brightphoton]

Please tell me you're not actually, seriously suggesting that Nathan Chen should get the same PCS as Jason Brown. He is not even remotely close to that level. There is now no other skater in the US men who is.

Yeah, see, this is why Nathan had to do a million quads.

 

[Eclair]

Yeah, see, this is why Nathan had to do a million quads.

or he could have worked on his PCS? I don't see your point here ... it's not like Nathan is a small fed skater that won't get the PCS even if he deserved them, so he just HAD to put in quads ...

I think Nathan just likes jumping more than the artistry side of skating. end of story ...