2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[Mrs. P]

This thread has gone in such a strange direction. Some are blaming how judges score a skater, who because he messed up on the jumps isn't on the Olympic team, for "forcing" a skater, who is the U.S. main hope for a medal in men's figure skating at the Olympics, to do more quads.

I just think Nathan's ambitious, personally. Not a bad thing.

Side note, Jason's instagram story yesterday featured a post of him at the airport pointing to the ad with Nathan and the United Airlines athletes and he made a point to wish them all good luck. A nice gesture.

 

[penniavaswen]

Since PCS is often protected by reputation and previous competition's results, TES seems to be the only thing that a younger skater can control in order to hope to crack the upper elite levels. Isn't that exactly what happened worldwide in the lead up to 2014, only then it was with 2-3 quads instead of 5-7?

Edit: And to circle it back to the discussion on hand, Nathan couldn't control the PCS that he was awarded as a new senior but he could force the judges to give him TES for the quads. It's more of a min-max move than powergaming. It just seemed to take the US longer to be hit over the noggin with the strategy.

 

[karne]

It just seemed to take the US longer to be hit over the noggin with the strategy.

Nathan wasn't the one who suffered from the USFS refusing to get the quad memo.

I can't believe that this time tomorrow, Adam will likely have an Olympic medal, and Max won't even have got to go. I guess the nice guys really do finish last.

 

[noskates]

Why are some giving up on Nathan because he had ONE bad skate! Agree he should have put more work in on his PCS but quite frankly there are more than a few men at the Olys you could say the same thing about. He does quads because he can! MOST of the male figure skaters love to jump. Most are very athletic and jumping is fun. I would bet if you took a poll and asked most male figure skaters what is their favorite part of figure skating they would answer "jumping!" Skaters like Jason and Josh and to some extent Adam enjoy the presentation side of skating. There are a few in the world who can do both quite successfully - Javi, Shoma, Dennis Ten if he's on, Patrick Chan if he's on. Each of those skaters and their team have a strategy that hopefully plays to that skater's strengths.

Karne I know you love Max and he was in every conversation (with a nod to Ryan on that phrase) leading up to the US Nationals. He was always considered a major player in who would go to the Olympics. He didn't deliver. But I will tell you, there weren't many people in the arena that weren't pulling for him. Same thing with Jason. He didn't deliver. Doesn't matter how nice they were - they didn't skate well. It all comes down to who skates the best on any given day or night. Nathan didn't deliver in the SP in the team event but that doesn't mean he won't in the individual competition.

It bothers me that the diatribe that goes on here after a skate makes it sound like the skater being discussed has all of a sudden become inept or the judges are prejudiced or yada! yada! yada! I would hazard a guess that there isn't anybody on this board that sees everything the judges see who are sitting on the ice with technical callers and instant replay. Do I always agree with their judging. NO. But I'm sitting at home with a glass of wine watching it all on a 45" television. Big difference. And as usual, I will second just about anything Mrs. P says because she's logical and objective without the emotion.

 

[GGFan]

whole post

Imma let you finish, but it's really hard to read your post without a paragraph break for my eyes. Help a brotha out please

 

[GGFan]

As many breaks as we gave Jeremy (one of my faves) Nathan deserves the benefit of the doubt. Fortunately the other men saved him by being just as bad.:dev2: I think he'll be fine for the individual.

 

[noskates]

Imma let you finish, but it's really hard to read your post without a paragraph break for my eyes. Help a brotha out please

Sorry - is that better?

 

[Feline Feeder]

All down to him? What is? The US standing in the team event?
Nothing to do with Nathan Chen not delivering what a lot of people thought he would? How will the girls be doing???? Are the Shibs really still right up there? Can the Knierims shine a second time?

No worries, I love the Knierims and I think the Shibs are world class, but have a fair asssessment of a man who had a great first half of this season.
Don't bother with the loving tribute, he doesn't need that from doubters. Another thing that makes him great :cool2:

The Knierims will not be in the top 3 even if they skate clean. In fact, they came in 4th. The ice dance team will probably be in 2nd or 3rd. The "lady" will be in 4th or 5th. The way this subjective, reputation-driven sport operates, it's almost a given. Adam, as I see it, is the only long-programmer who is a wild card. He could be first, he could be fifth. If he skates clean and there are various falls, and it's judged fairly, he could bring in some major points, but if he falters, he could lose a medal. It really is up to him, as I see it.

 

[Mrs. P]

Since PCS is often protected by reputation and previous competition's results, TES seems to be the only thing that a younger skater can control in order to hope to crack the upper elite levels. Isn't that exactly what happened worldwide in the lead up to 2014, only then it was with 2-3 quads instead of 5-7?

Edit: And to circle it back to the discussion on hand, Nathan couldn't control the PCS that he was awarded as a new senior but he could force the judges to give him TES for the quads. It's more of a min-max move than powergaming. It just seemed to take the US longer to be hit over the noggin with the strategy.

I think USFS, to an extent, had to make do with whatever they had. USFS, deep down, wants someone to be competitive. They didn't exactly put all their eggs in Jason or Adam's basket either -- it's that the really international judging for them that push their hand a little. Jason didn't have a quad in 2014, but yet managed to get in the final group at the Olympics and get a GP medal in his debut season. Jason has always gotten above-average PCS scores even when he didn't have "reputation." Yes, at one time he had PCS in the 70s, but when you look at how he scored relative to more veteran senior skaters, he did pretty well. I do think that's a recognition of what he does bring to the sport. He didn't have the quad, so he made the most of what he had. That's been his storyline since he was a juvenile -- he's always took longer to master the jumps, but people couldn't ignore his presence on the ice, his overall skating skills and spins -- and the jumps he did have were solid enough to get + GOE.

Nathan had the ability to learn multiple quads and was able to capture USFS attention in that way. Same thing -- when he started racking up international medals through TES, USFS couldn't ignore that either. But there's a major trade-off, I think and that's what I was pointing out. It doesn't take away from his amazing achievements up to now. But if he wants to really want to make that free skate sing, the layout he did at U.S. Classic is probably the most ideal -- but I understand if he decides he's money ahead on integrating more quads instead. I think Nathan's story line has been pretty consistent since he was a kid too -- incredible prodigy, oozing with talent, but had struggled with talent. I don't think we'll see a lot of guys like Nathan in our lifetimes. While I don't fully enjoy every skate he's done, I also don't downplay that his ability is unreal and enables him a lot of flexibility in the competitive realm.

I think this sport comes down to strategy and playing to your strengths. I don't really fault anyone for making decisions that are in that realm. And USFS will respond accordingly based on who is bringing the results -- and right now they're clearly putting support with Nathan. On a smaller scale, it's the same with Vincent, based on his strong TES in the FS). And I think Adam's past results in the last two seasons were hard to ignore, hence him being on the Olympic team and Ross not. (And also Jason getting that first alternate spot over Ross).

 

[musicfan80]

Nathan wasn't the one who suffered from the USFS refusing to get the quad memo.

I can't believe that this time tomorrow, Adam will likely have an Olympic medal, and Max won't even have got to go. I guess the nice guys really do finish last.

I'm not a Adam fan, but I haven't seen anything about him being negative towards a U.S. competitor.

I will admit that I was stressed about how well Adam would do today - but he was pretty good. Although I think the judges showed that they think that quads do matter.

 

[mrrice]

I am happy for Adam and my friends loved him. He certainly did his job and he should be proud. However......He was slow as molasses during sections of that program and without a quad, he's going to get slammed in the individual event as well. I like his program so much but, I think he should put his Lutz back in for the individual event. The judges clearly think he needs it and even a rotated fall will be better than a double axel.

 

[brightphoton]

Doth mine ears deceive me? Did Johnny Weir and Tara Lipinski actually say they liked Adam's skating?

That's probably the only nice thing they have said throughout this entire broadcast

 

[mrrice]

Ok...so now that site has slowed down, I'm back. I hope the US can hang on for third place. Adam and Mirai certainly did their best and should be proud even if we lose the Bronze to Italy. They made their Country proud.......

 

[Alifyre]

My dad texted me specifically to say that he thought Adam was the best performance of the men tonight! Now, that was in part because he knows I love Adam but also I think very indicative of how beautifully he performed. My dad's a picky guy! So happy Adam did so well, especially in terms of keeping team USA in medal contention!

 

[Mrs. P]

Adam did a great job. He should be proud of his skate here.

 

[mrrice]

So, with awesome Free Dance by the Shibs, we got the Bronze, Right? I'm so proud of our skaters. After Nathan's performance in the SP, I thought for sure we were out of this event. For Mirai to beat Carolina was absolutely huge!!!!!

 

[skylark]

Adam did a great job. He should be proud of his skate here.

My dad texted me specifically to say that he thought Adam was the best performance of the men tonight! Now, that was in part because he knows I love Adam but also I think very indicative of how beautifully he performed. My dad's a picky guy! So happy Adam did so well, especially in terms of keeping team USA in medal contention!

That last bit cannot be underestimated! I think all of our athletes did their part and EVERY SINGLE ONE of them earned this team bronze medal. It's interesting that USA didn't win even one of the team segments. So it truly was a team effort. They all deserve to be congratulated. (And it was a little scary there for awhile, with Italy nipping at US heels.)

Adam's skate really did illustrate the power of the performance, of artistry and emotion and just doing everything as well as he could in that moment. I'm so proud of him! It's clear that he's thrilled to be having this experience and having his chance to make a contribution. I also love how he leaped up and cheered when Mirai did her gorgeous 3Axel.

 

[NathanandMiraifan111]

Nathan wasn't the one who suffered from the USFS refusing to get the quad memo.

I can't believe that this time tomorrow, Adam will likely have an Olympic medal, and Max won't even have got to go. I guess the nice guys really do finish last.

Ugh, can you please get over yourself? You make this same whiny argument every single time something great happens to another skater besides Max. News flash, Max didn't skate well at nationals & he didn't make the olympics. Just be happy for the US men who are there. Adam just 'yes kweened' his performance and helped team USA win bronze.

 

[karne]

I'm not a Adam fan, but I haven't seen anything about him being negative towards a U.S. competitor.

You missed the bit when he retweeted a bunch of nasty comments about Jason (because Jason beat him at 2015 Nationals) and Max (because Max got picked for WTT that year), huh?

Anyway, he nailed the 3F-3Lo and his layback is still the best of any man or lady in the world.

 

[skylark]

I'm not a Adam fan, but I haven't seen anything about him being negative towards a U.S. competitor.

I will admit that I was stressed about how well Adam would do today - but he was pretty good. Although I think the judges showed that they think that quads do matter.

You missed the bit when he retweeted a bunch of nasty comments about Jason (because Jason beat him at 2015 Nationals) and Max (because Max got picked for WTT that year), huh?

Anyway, he nailed the 3F-3Lo and his layback is still the best of any man or lady in the world.

Karne, that was three years ago. Three. Years. Maybe Adam's learned something from his mistakes. Maybe he realized 3 years ago that relieving his feelings in that moment didn't accomplish, overall or long-term, what he wanted to do or most importantly, who he wanted to be. Adam is someone new now.

Thanks for adding the line about what you appreciate that Adam did.

Adam really deserves this Olympic bronze team medal for the great contribution he made in buoying the team up last night, scores-wise ... AND he also lifted a little bit of weight off Mirai's shoulders, and the Shibs'. Who knows if that didn't, or did, make a difference in their performances. That, I think, is one of the great intangibles in a team event.

BTW, Adam and his fans were gravely disappointed, twice, by not making 2010 and 2014 Olympics. I wasn't even Adam's fan then, but I recall the disappointment. Max can try again, if he chooses to.