2018 Skate America Ladies Short Program

[Tolstoj]

I think there isn’t much “buzz” about Satoko’s bad jumping because

1) it is so blatantly obvious, everyone knows it, Satoko knows it and talks openly about it and works hard to try and change that. To the point that if you make an analysis my only reaction will be “... ok.”
2) yes, her issues are 99% of the time ignored by the panel(there’s certainly some politicking going on there). But, let’s think here how many flutzes go uncalled? How many URs? How lenient panels tend to be? Or, worse, how selective panels tend to be? It’s not just about Satoko. In the Olympics for instance, had they called every error from Satoko, I would’ve liked to see other obvious and well known errors being called too, otherwise wouldn’t it have been unfair to Satoko? Call everything or call nothing. Skate America of course is doing dirty to some skaters by being so strict to some and not so strict with Satoko.
3) Let’s talk about PCS. We all know Satoko deserves the highest marks, enough to challenge the marks of, let’s say, the Olympic Champion. Does that ever happen? Maybe it could finally happen this season but so far, not happening. I said this before, her jumps should be getting dinged but the rest of her skating should be getting rewarded the way it deserves.

1) The fact that it is so obvious, should actually produce more buzz, not less, because it's so obvious and yet nobody has called anything in many years now. I've read "shame on ISU" for much less than this.

She said she wants to improve the jumps (which is admirable) so many times and yet always going back to the old technique with all the "cheating", so to me those start to feel more as PR speaking, that's maybe what judges want to hear.

2) If you want to be that strict, let's do it. I guarantee you that Satoko would be one of the most penalized skater then, because it's not just the amount of issues she has, it's also the fact that her jumping technique goes against almost all the criteria ISU uses to reward jumps: positions from take-off to landing, height and distance,... that's arguargbly even crazier than the overlooked issues.

I want also to correct you because you said that judges called every error Satoko made at the Olympics and that's not true, between SP and LP she received nothing: zero URs, zero edge calls, everything clean.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/OWG2018_LadiesSingleSkating_SP_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/OWG2018_LadiesSingleSkating_FS_Scores.pdf

I've been tracking her scores for a while (Worlds 2015, when the inflation started), the last time a panel really started to call some of her mistakes was at Skate Canada last year.

3) I've never questioned her PCS (or her spins), she's a lovely skater, pleasant to watch, even though i remember even some of her fans like Jenny Kirk on TSL used to say that Satoko is great and lovely but she looks far less impressive and much smaller live than at home with a camera close on her.

About your desire, i do not agree: Figure skating is both technical and artistry, and actually it's more 60% technical and 40% artistry because of the way scores are given.

No offense but Satoko Miyahara has such a questionable technique that i don't personally think she should be considered Olympic Champion level unless the others are even worse than her, or until she improves the technique.

For me it's already crazy the way things are now with her always being in the mix, considering Japan could already push someone else like Kaori as the top japanese lady.

 

[mikeko666]

Skate America loves Kaori. Last year her PCS jumped by almost 5 points in FS. And maybe being an olympic skater helps too.

Not as much as they love Satoko. If they really love Kaori, she would have won last year.

Watching live and on PC/TV are different. Marin may look pretty on TV, but I found her performance rather small and juniorish when I watched Nats live last year. On the other hand, I was blown away by Kaori's power and speed.

 

[Fluture]

After having watched the whole SP I have to ask one thing: How on earth is Polina in 8th place? I know she URs and her flip was definitely two-footed and UR but her combo was NOT and that 2A is so huge and explosive and covers so much distance that its incomprehensible how she doesn‘t get more GOE for it. I‘m rarely one to complain about the judging but that is injustice.

Congrats to Satoko, Sofia, Marin and Kaori, though. They did really well. Shame for Bradie (lol at me having her in 1st place in the predictions thread) but hopefully she‘ll come back in the FS and grab a medal. Loena... I had so much hope after Nebelhorn. Please come back in the FS, I know you can do it!

 

[Baron Vladimir]

After watching it multiple times at x0.25 speed, I think Miyahara's 3Lz+3T is within the quarter. However, the 3F I think should have been marked <. I do see pre-rotation on her jumps where she does about 50-75% of a turn while she's still picking on the ice, but until the technical panel cares about pre-rotation, it's only the quality of the landing that matters.

Yeah i agree that flip should have been called considering how they called other skaters jumps. Regarding pre-rotation, thats the call rest of the judges should reflect in GOE by deducting from positive features. So her jumps should be rewarded with +2 at best in my opinion(+3 for positives -1 for poor take off!). Another thing i found is that Tsurtskaya combo shouldnt be negative. Even if you deduct -3 for UR, there are so much positives in there, so 0 GOE as a final result is more appropriate.

 

[Seren]

The look on Loena’s face after her skate broke my heart. I hope she rallies in the free.

 

[yume]

After having watched the whole SP I have to ask one thing: How on earth is Polina in 8th place? I know she URs and her flip was definitely two-footed and UR but her combo was NOT and that 2A is so huge and explosive and covers so much distance that its incomprehensible how she doesn‘t get more GOE for it. I‘m rarely one to complain about the judging but that is injustice.

(

I agree. It hurts to see such a giant combo get scored like that.

 

[elektra blue]

catching up with ladies! overall this was a better event than man, as usual the scores are very low though

Samodurova: nice skate, a little stiff maybe, anyway she was one of the cleanest.

WESSENBERG: I didn’t know her before. Very enjoyable clean lady.

TSURSKAYA: at least she was cleanish this time (and better dressed), her combo is so huge (and so is the 2A), all things considered i believe she was underscored.

LECAVELIER: she’s wearing one of the best Egyptian costume in the history of figure skating I’m very glad to see her so fiery and what an improvement from the past seasons.

HONDA: I’m so happy to see a very good performance from her! She totally sold the program and got (almost) every element in place. Also she’s wearing on of the best costume of the season so far.

MIYAHARA: well what you could say about her? She’s astonishing, a true joy to watch and what amazing skating skills! She’s so light and fast that she looks like she’s flying on the ice.

 

[artsciboy]

Skate America loves Kaori. Last year her PCS jumped by almost 5 points in FS. And maybe being an olympic skater helps too.

I disagree that Kaori’s PCS shouldn’t match Marin’s or Satoko’s. There’s a credible argument that she has the best skating skills of the bunch with presentation skills to boot. I don’t think her musical choice for the SP works the best for her, but you can’t deny those skating skills.

 

[rikaquegira]

1) The fact that it is so obvious, should actually produce more buzz, not less, because it's so obvious and yet nobody has called anything in many years now. I've read "shame on ISU" for much less than this.

She said she wants to improve the jumps (which is admirable) so many times and yet always going back to the old technique with all the "cheating", so to me those start to feel more as PR speaking, that's maybe what judges want to hear.

2) If you want to be that strict, let's do it. I guarantee you that Satoko would be one of the most penalized skater then, because it's not just the amount of issues she has, it's also the fact that her jumping technique goes against almost all the criteria ISU uses to reward jumps: positions from take-off to landing, height and distance,... that's arguargbly even crazier than the overlooked issues.

I want also to correct you because you said that judges called every error Satoko made at the Olympics and that's not true, between SP and LP she received nothing: zero URs, zero edge calls, everything clean.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/OWG2018_LadiesSingleSkating_SP_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/OWG2018_LadiesSingleSkating_FS_Scores.pdf

I've been tracking her scores for a while (Worlds 2015, when the inflation started), the last time a panel really started to call some of her mistakes was at Skate Canada last year.

3) I've never questioned her PCS (or her spins), she's a lovely skater, pleasant to watch, even though i remember even some of her fans like Jenny Kirk on TSL used to say that Satoko is great and lovely but she looks far less impressive and much smaller live than at home with a camera close on her.

About your desire, i do not agree: Figure skating is both technical and artistry, and actually it's more 60% technical and 40% artistry because of the way scores are given.

No offense but Satoko Miyahara has such a questionable technique that i don't personally think she should be considered Olympic Champion level unless the others are even worse than her, or until she improves the technique.

For me it's already crazy the way things are now with her always being in the mix, considering Japan could already push someone else like Kaori as the top japanese lady.

Hey, I agree with almost everything you said! I don’t think Satoko should not be penalised by her jumps. I think everyone should have the same treatment. Unfortunately, I think we can all agree ISU is a joke.
And I have to correct you, I did not say Satoko’s errors were called at te Olympics. Read again. Perhaps my grammar wasn’t too clear or something(sorry) but I did not say that.

 

[draqq]

Yeah i agree that flip should have been called considering how they called other skaters jumps. Regarding pre-rotation, thats the call rest of the judges should reflect in GOE by deducting from positive features. So her jumps should be rewarded with +2 at best in my opinion(+3 for positives -1 for poor take off!). Another thing i found is that Tsurtskaya combo shouldnt be negative. Even if you deduct -3 for UR, there are so much positives in there, so 0 GOE as a final result is more appropriate.

That's fair. We did see a lot of -1s and 0s in the judging of Tsurskaya's combo so most of those judges' GOE were counted.

The thing about pre-rotation is that I don't think the judges are really taking this into account in part because quads are quite pre-rotated in the men's competition (and now women's too) just to generate the turning momentum needed to do a quad in the first place. The result is that we have many skaters pre-rotating jumps if just so that they don't receive UR calls.

 

[yume]

I disagree that Kaori’s PCS shouldn’t match Marin’s or Satoko’s. There’s a credible argument that she has the best skating skills of the bunch with presentation skills to boot. I don’t think her musical choice for the SP works the best for her, but you can’t deny those skating skills.

The thing is, skating skills are only one of the components. I have the impression that's something that many people forget.

 

[hippomoomin]

The competition itself is pretty great, but the judging is not. For the first time since I started to follow figure skating in 2010, I feel I may quit following the spots altogether, if the judging deviates so much from what we see.

It's not just about under rotations or edge call, but the unfair GOE awarded to technical content. How on hell did Satoko's combo got +1.52 GOE on her combo and Sofia got .91. I am not even a fan a Sofia.

 

[lesnar001]

The competition itself is pretty great, but the judging is not. For the first time since I started to follow figure skating in 2010, I feel I may quit following the spots altogether, if the judging deviates so much from what we see.

It's not just about under rotations or edge call, but the unfair GOE awarded to technical content. How on hell did Satoko's combo got +1.52 GOE on her combo and Sofia got .91. I am not even a fan a Sofia.

I hope you don't quit following figure skating.

I have been watching since 1975 and the judging has always been "????" at best.

 

[mirai4life]

The competition itself is pretty great, but the judging is not. For the first time since I started to follow figure skating in 2010, I feel I may quit following the spots altogether, if the judging deviates so much from what we see.

It's not just about under rotations or edge call, but the unfair GOE awarded to technical content. How on hell did Satoko's combo got +1.52 GOE on her combo and Sofia got .91. I am not even a fan a Sofia.

when the new rules came i thought it would surely hurt Satoko but seems not.

 

[jenaj]

Satoko' jumps looked fine to me. It seems like the issue for many is alleged pre-rotation. Unless the rules have changed, the IJS doesn't address that.

 

[yume]

when the new rules came i thought it would surely hurt Satoko but seems not.

The rules can change, but not the judging.

 

[Mrs. P]

So regarding Satoko, I realize part of the issue is that I honestly think the tech controllers/specialists are likely spilt over how to call her jumps. For me this explains the whiplash on her calls -- she can go from getting TONS of UR calls to a competition where not even a single jump is under review.

I think part of it is the definition of when the blade lands on the ice. Her blade is all the way backwards, which gives the look that it's rotated, but the actual rotation is still be done on the ice with her toe pick. I found myself yesterday being like "I can't really tell, but I can see a strict caller putting it at UR."

 

[skylark]

This program is amazing. Wow.
Has she grown up a bit? How old is she? She look taller than before!

I think so too. Satoko said last year that a nutritionist had advised her to drink milk, and since then she'd grown 2 cm. I'll bet she's added on another couple of cm. at least. She's 20 now, and, while I'm not one of them, I know some women who grew in height up to age 21.

Her skating itself has improved, but I also think a factor in her skating is that she's little by little deepened her ability and desire to connect with the audience, to bring them into her skating performance, so that we can all perceive and enjoy more her deep connection with the music and her enjoyment of the process of her skating and her love of it. Even her perfectionism.

 

[zounger]

I think so too. Satoko said last year that a nutritionist had advised her to drink milk, and since then she'd grown 2 cm.

Was it the famous Canadian bagged milk? It looks like it's doing wonders .

 

[Metis]

Her skating itself has improved, but I also think a factor in her skating is that she's little by little deepened her ability and desire to connect with the audience, to bring them into her skating performance, so that we can all perceive and enjoy more her deep connection with the music and her enjoyment of the process of her skating and her love of it. Even her perfectionism.

I find your description of Satoko fascinating because I feel the exact opposite — I think she has the best spins in ladies, exceptional skating skills, phenomenal movement and attention to choreography... and if you asked me to describe or recall one of her programmes five minutes after watching it, I wouldn’t be able to. My general reaction is “oh, that’s extremely lovely,” admiration for her skills, and then my mind just quits without saving an actual memory. She reminds me of Patrick Chan, another skater I didn’t connect with but who had undeniable talent, in that both seemed to be very interior performers; there’s a performance going on, but the energy for it comes from shutting out the audience, not opening oneself to others. It’s not a bad quality, but in Satoko’s case, I’ve always found her skating beautiful but sterile, somehow lacking warmth, and she’s never taken me on a journey with her during a performance. But I have no actual complaints — aesthetically, what Satoko delivers is often brilliant. It just doesn’t make me feel anything.

Kaori doesn’t have Satoko’s refinement, but there’s a warmth to her performance factor that has won me over as a fan. I found her short far more enjoyable than Satoko’s, though I’d give the edge to Satoko in any number of categories — skating skills, refinement, extension, etc. But somehow the whole is less than the sum of all parts. I don’t dislike Satoko in the slightest, but I just can’t connect with her the way I can with Kaori. (Even if I haven’t entirely forgiven Kaori for that windmill-arm moment in last year’s free... it is to me what voiceovers are to so many others: no matter how good the programme is, I will never forgive that moment.) Kind of funny how we can watch the same thing and come to such diametrically opposite conclusions.