2022 ISU Congress Provisional Agenda (PCS Categories, Max/Min Age and Other Stuff)

[Ella5555]

I can’t find a general discussion thread for this - only the one specific to age minimum.

Article by Philip Hersh:

At upcoming ISU congress, results of important age debates may beg bigger questions about sport's future — Globetrotting by Philip Hersh

How young is too young to compete at the elite level in figure skating? And how old is too old to hold elective office in the sport’s international federation? Will the answer to either question do anything to arrest the decline in the sport’s appeal, especially in North America and Europe (other

www.globetrottingbyphiliphersh.com

Among topics:
Minimum age for athletes
Maximum age for ISU office holders (hope this doesn’t pass)
PCS category shrinkage to reduce redundancy and ambiguity
World Championships expansion
Having different judging panels for component scores and technical grade of execution

in my mind, some are good ideas (e.g., adjusting PCS categories; separate panels), but nothing beats proper training of judges and repercussions for not following rules.

 

[el henry]

Interesting to see the other proposals.

The Lakernik rule: I say, as someone of retirement age, not needed. Lakernik, and anyone else his age, please retire, watch figure skating as a spectator, and spoil your grandchildren.

World Championship expansion for "lesser known" countries:

I don't understand the PCS rule. Will it get rid of the quad bonus for PCS? Then I'm for it. Same for separate panels.

 

[4everchan]

technically, if the judges were split (goe /pcs) and category for PCS shrunk but weighing more respectively, this new and separate panel might remove that quad bonus... i'd still would like pcs CAP should be in performance/execution but not in skating skills/ transition (unless said fall affected transitions)... etc

 

[Lamente Ariane]

I wish they’d increase the value of spins and step sequences in singles and do a better job of differentiating a merely competently done spin from an exceptional one but I recognize that’s basically a pipe dream at this point. (Most of the top men shouldn’t be getting better GOE on spins than Deniss Vasiljevs, period)

 

[4everchan]

I wish they’d increase the value of spins and step sequences in singles and do a better job of differentiating a merely competently done spin from an exceptional one but I recognize that’s basically a pipe dream at this point. (Most of the top men shouldn’t be getting better GOE on spins than Deniss Vasiljevs, period)

spin goe and levels are messed up... Keegan is probably one of the best spinners I have ever seen live (never seen DV) super fast and centered but he gets hammered on levels because he doesn't hit those ugly positions... a great quality spin should score higher than a bad quality spin, no matter the stupid level requirements

 

[ladyjane]

I agree that Spin levels (the horrific positions) and GOE (speed, centered) are messed up. I would like congress to look into that. I have already stated to be in favour to raise the minimum age. Now I will state to be in favour of limiting the maximum age of officials. Not because I believe old age automatically makes one senile (it certainly does not) but if you're considered too old to work, you must also be considered too old to take office, With a bit of leeway of course. So, one can surpass the age of 67-68, but more than 80? Seriously? I agree that's the time to enjoy your grandchildren, you can still be an advisor. It would be best if people made that choice themselves, but it seems a maximum age is the only way to stop people from just going on for ever!

 

[gkelly]

I offer no opinion on what the maximum age should be for international officials.

However, I take offense at the suggestion that officials should stay home and enjoy their grandchildren.

Many people do not have grandchildren (or children) of their own. Some of them may have wanted to, but life didn't work out that way. Others may never have wanted that. For various reasons either way.

At a local level, many clubs rely on judges and other volunteers past retirement age (with or without grandchildren) to get their skaters tested, staff club-hosted competitions, and otherwise keep the clubs running when younger adult skaters and parents of skaters are too busy to volunteer their time. Some who scale back from national or international competition judging to a more local level instead, and some who don't even start judging (and therefore never reach high levels) until after retirement. I've seen a few judges still going strong locally even into their 90s.

Of course it's easier for local clubs to be aware of when it's time to stop inviting specific officials as they age.

 

[Kittosuni]

I offer no opinion on what the maximum age should be for international officials.

However, I take offense at the suggestion that officials should stay home and enjoy their grandchildren.

Many people do not have grandchildren (or children) of their own. Some of them may have wanted to, but life didn't work out that way. Others may never have wanted that. For various reasons either way.

At a local level, many clubs rely on judges and other volunteers past retirement age (with or without grandchildren) to get their skaters tested, staff club-hosted competitions, and otherwise keep the clubs running when younger adult skaters and parents of skaters are too busy to volunteer their time. Some who scale back from national or international competition judging to a more local level instead, and some who don't even start judging (and therefore never reach high levels) until after retirement. I've seen a few judges still going strong locally even into their 90s.

Of course it's easier for local clubs to be aware of when it's time to stop inviting specific officials as they age.

I honestly feel like setting a max age is a potential lawsuit in the making.

 

[lariko]

So, basically, let’s turn figure skating into a very long ice show with arbitrary marks and purely reputation scoring The amount of acrimony toward actually honestly scoring harder stuff higher is amazing.

 

[cheerknithanson]

When is the RD for 2022/2023 going to be announced?!

 

[figureskatingandrainbows]

Please split the panels! I think judges could really get a better PCS grasp if they didn't have to keep on inputting scores throughout the program.

 

[4everchan]

So, basically, let’s turn figure skating into a very long ice show with arbitrary marks and purely reputation scoring The amount of acrimony toward actually honestly scoring harder stuff higher is amazing.

i am not sure how this congress aims at doing that? split panels just means that some judges will really judge elements and the others will really judge the components of skating? then both panels can do their jobs better, rewarding properly what needs to be rewarded? there will always be big jumps in the sport. there is no way that will go away.

 

[SnowWhite]

I honestly feel like setting a max age is a potential lawsuit in the making.

No, I don't think so. They already have a maximum age. They're just discussing raising it a bit. So I don't see how that would lead to a lawsuit.

Plus, have a max age for some positions isn't something the ISU made up. The Canadian Supreme Court has mandatory retirement at age 75, for example.

 

[lariko]

i am not sure how this congress aims at doing that? split panels just means that some judges will really judge elements and the others will really judge the components of skating? then both panels can do their jobs better, rewarding properly what needs to be rewarded? there will always be big jumps in the sport. there is no way that will go away.

There will be three categories of PCS, and they will be prorated higher. Since nobody was ever accountable for PCS, that value will overwhelm technical marks. See the bit of the article that speaks negatively of the 7% of the women who can ‘pile up’ technical elements to be ‘unbeatable’. Obviously, the direction is to make technical content beatable by the nebulous PCS mark. Plus, the suggestion to expand the entries into the World Championships by the entrants who will do qualifications. Which means more, far more entries at the lower end of the technical mastery, since the charge feds are capped at 3 entries. In other words, we will be seeing more women struggling to land doubles and men struggling to land triples. Basically, it sounds like specifically for women, the high-end technical content will be de-emphasized. Anything possible for men, there it is a complete

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

When is the RD for 2022/2023 going to be announced?!

They announced the patterns for the various novice divisions earlier in the week, so hopefully not too long!

Link to the novice announcement: https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/fsk-communications/27941-isu-communication-2463/file

I really hope they pick the golden waltz for the seniors! But, I'd be happy to see any of the patterns that haven't been out for a while, and hope most of all that we got a longer pattern rather than the little sections we've had the last couple of seasons.

 

[4everchan]

There will be three categories of PCS, and they will be prorated higher. Since nobody was ever accountable for PCS, that value will overwhelm technical marks. See the bit of the article that speaks negatively of the 7% of the women who can ‘pile up’ technical elements to be ‘unbeatable’. Obviously, the direction is to make technical content beatable by the nebulous PCS mark. Plus, the suggestion to expand the entries into the World Championships by the entrants who will do qualifications. Which means more, far more entries at the lower end of the technical mastery, since the charge feds are capped at 3 entries. In other words, we will be seeing more women struggling to land doubles and men struggling to land triples. Basically, it sounds like specifically for women, the high-end technical content will be de-emphasized. Anything possible for men, there it is a complete

I read the article but I don't quite see it that way. I think that the changes will not prevent the best jumpers from winning. However, it may lower their PCS scores if they do not skate as well as other skaters. In the end, they will still win. The expansion doesn't impact the top skaters either...It just gives a chance to the lower tier skater to compete at Worlds, and may the best one reach the event after qualification... they will still probably only skate the SP in the end.. By the way, it was wayyyyy worse back then when EVERYONE had to skate the qualification rounds and it counted towards the final score... it was such a let down IMHO... This is a better solution. Every ISU Congress brings up new things... in the end, there is very little "revolution" in the sport since IJS came in.

 

[lariko]

I read the article but I don't quite see it that way. I think that the changes will not prevent the best jumpers from winning. However, it may lower their PCS scores if they do not skate as well as other skaters. In the end, they will still win. The expansion doesn't impact the top skaters either...It just gives a chance to the lower tier skater to compete at Worlds, and may the best one reach the event after qualification... they will still probably only skate the SP in the end.. By the way, it was wayyyyy worse back then when EVERYONE had to skate the qualification rounds and it counted towards the final score... it was such a let down IMHO... This is a better solution. Every ISU Congress brings up new things... in the end, there is very little "revolution" in the sport since IJS came in.

I feel it is another step towards lower accountability, because there is just no way to judge PCS in a simple manner that everyone could see that the score is at all fair. I mean, obviously, there are some fans who actually get the nuisances, but for me it’s just going to be disappointment, because I never seem to like those iconic PCSs skaters. Like, save for Uno, I think all my favs are low PCS. So, if I had seen them win before because of the jumps, now I never will, and, overall, probably the skaters with the style I simply can’t appreciate because I am tone-dead or whatever, will always win.

 

[NanaPat]

I think a more appropriate proposal for the officials would be to LOWER the age limit.

Note that I am in the range of ages in question!

 

[4everchan]

I feel it is another step towards lower accountability, because there is just no way to judge PCS in a simple manner that everyone could see that the score is at all fair. I mean, obviously, there are some fans who actually get the nuisances, but for me it’s just going to be disappointment, because I never seem to like those iconic PCSs skaters. Like, save for Uno, I think all my favs are low PCS. So, if I had seen them win before because of the jumps, now I never will, and, overall, probably the skaters with the style I simply can’t appreciate because I am tone-dead or whatever, will always win.

I think PCS skaters are very few to be honest. Most skaters who get high PCS nowadays are also getting high TES scores. I think that the split will be better honestly. Of course, we will have to see how it applies. That's the real issue whenever the ISU makes changes.... It's always hit and miss... One famous example was the 10 percent bonus after half time... It was aimed to get more balanced and varied programs as skaters would do all their jumps in the first half... it worked a bit and then, BANG... some skaters mostly Zagitova, started backloading all the elements... creating unbalanced programs but the other way around... the ISU didn't like that... and now they have ruled a 4-3 split...

The original intent was to create balanced and varied programs... Now, all we get is 4-3 splits... we even see steady patterns emerging to put the easier jumps in position 3 and 4... and saving some combos for the second half... there is no more variety... so it backfired again...

This is the ISU for you... but in the end, it will remain a judged sport based on very archaic rules and concepts... The attempts to modernize it go too far for some, and not far enough for others.

I see nothing very harmful in these new rules... but I will be the first one to complain if ISU proves me wrong once more

 

[lariko]

worked a bit and then, BANG... some skaters mostly Zagitova, started backloading all the elements... creating unbalanced programs but the other way around... the ISU didn't like that... and now they have ruled a 4-3 split...

Honestly, i liked Zagitova’s program. Frankly, I don’t care if the jumping passes are distributed evenly or not. I just don’t like when skaters skate for a long time not doing much of anything with their arms. But some people don’t like them having active arms. As long as I get to see a lot of cool jumps, and people with high energy or big character programs and bigger jumps win, I like it. But if the mellow, whiny, spiral-laden skates go ahead, then yeah, my interest is going to drop like a stone.