2024 Worlds: Men's thoughts and comments

[moonvine]

Keegan Messing Backflips Into 2023 4CC Medal Ceremony

2023 Four Continents Figure Skating Championships Silver Medalist!Congrats Keegan!

www.youtube.com

Keegan will always win the backflip competition of my heart.

 

[lariko]

damn those figure killed Midori... In some ways, I am glad they are gone though I do miss what they brought to the skaters' skills.
Lynn and Zayak had two good events... i believe at a certain points figures counted for so much right ? Thanks for this.

Yeah, I mean, she was 1st in both skating parts, and finished...6th? good riddance to figures.

 

[gkelly]

Yeah, I mean, she was 1st in both skating parts, and finished...6th? good riddance to figures.

Both free skating parts. It's not as though the figures phase did not involve skating.

 

[lariko]

Both free skating parts. It's not as though the figures phase did not involve skating.

Not really skating as we know it now.

 

[bostonskaterguy86]

A relatively small observation - but one thing I always notice is when a jump is timed perfectly with the music, because it happens so rarely. I was very excited to see that the 3A in Yuma's short program was timed so impeccably with the backing vocals!

 

[Mathman]

Janet Lynn's situation in 1973 was kind of unique, though. Neither Janet Lynn nor Karen Magnussen (nor anyone else) could come close to Beatrix Schuba in figures. At the 1972 Olympics Schuba was 1st in figures and 7th in free skating (no SP in those days) and won handily over Magnussen (3rd and 2nd) and Lynn (4th and 1st). Do not torture youself by watching the you tube of Schuba's free skate (to Impossible Dream), but that didn't matter in the slightest.

This promped an international campaign (spearheaded by Sonia Bianchetti at the ISU) to "do somethingabout the lack of audience appeal." After all, Janet Lynn was the prettiest skater since Sonia Henie, but who wants to watch Trixi Schuba tracing out gigantic perfect circles on the ice?

Schuba retired after the Olympics and the ISU invented the short program explicitly to showcase Lynn and give her a chance to win the world championship, which would be good for figure skating from a promotional point of view. Unfortunately, at 1973 Worlds Lynn fell in the SP and foiled the ISU's hopes. Lynn was 2nd in figures and 1st in the LP, while Magnussen was 1st in figures and 2nd in the LP. Magnussen's 1st in the SP compared to Lynn's 12th decided the matter.

Punctuating the ISU's valuation of the audience appeal of Janet Lynn, she turned pro the next year, joined Ice Capades, and became the world's highest piad female athlete, despite never having won a world or Olympic title.

 

[Mathman]

Not really skating as we know it now.

Well, we can't fault skaters of the past for not skating the way we were destined to come to know it 50 years in the future.

By the way, another skater who was done in by figuees was Brian Orser. At the 1984 Olympics he won the short program and the long, but was only 7th in figures, losing to Scott Hamilton (1st in figures, 2nd in short, 2nd in long).

 

[4everchan]

Well, we can't fault skaters of the past for not skating the way we were destined to come to know it 50 years in the future.

By the way, another skater who was done in by figuees was Brian Orser. At the 1984 Olympics he won the short program and the long, but was only 7th in figures, losing to Scott Hamilton (1st in figures, 2nd in short, 2nd in long).

Did the ISU do anything about that?

Also @lariko some skaters were still training figures until recently ... And it shows ... Patrick Chan and Jeremy Abbott certainly trained figures and are often cited for their edge control and quality. Patrick may no longer skate that much but his overall skating skills were still very apparent at the gala. It is striking

 

[Arigato]

There was a bit of "reputational PCS" going on when it came to Adam's short program.

Consider GPFRA, where Adam got a PB in a pristine clean SP, and 43.37 in PCS.

At Worlds, in a program with several major errors, he earned 42.29 in PCS.

From ISU PCS guidelines


https://www.isu.org/synchronized-sk...oks-faq/31479-program-components-chart-2/file

Serious Error(s)
Serious errors are falls and/or mistakes which result in a break in the delivery of the program. This break can be minimal or more pronounced and noticeable. These errors must be reflected in the mark awarded for each program component. The consequence depends on the severity and impact they have on the fluidity and continuity of the program. The following guideline should be used:


8.00 – 8.75** Very good 2 or more serious errors
7.00 – 7.75 Good

**When there are 2 or more errors and these errors only minimally impact the program, the maximum score of 8.75 is possible.

Nowhere did any judge give Adam higher than 8.75 in PCS because they followed the rules.

https://skatingscores.com/2324/wc/sr/men/i/short/fra/adam_siao_him_fa/element/6

I posted the above link to kill two birds with one stone - to show his SSQ scores from all judges as well as all of his PCS scores showing nothing higher than 8.75.

Adam got the highest step sequence score in the 2024 Worlds SP. (5.85) No shocker, really. Adam has a long history of having a high SSQ score. For some unknown reason, there are far too many people who refuse to learn there are guidelines in judging PCS and think if someone falls, or blows a jump, their PCS has to suffer greatly. That is incorrect. When they're an excellent skater and don't miss a beat in the program after falling, which is what occurred with Adam, you will not see a big hit in PCS. Nor should you.

I don't care what happened in France, I care what happened at Worlds. The fact that you didn't even reference the PCS guidelines tells me you have something subjective going on that appears to mean more to you than how to properly score a program.

 

[bostonskaterguy86]

From ISU PCS guidelines


https://www.isu.org/synchronized-sk...oks-faq/31479-program-components-chart-2/file

Serious Error(s)
Serious errors are falls and/or mistakes which result in a break in the delivery of the program. This break can be minimal or more pronounced and noticeable. These errors must be reflected in the mark awarded for each program component. The consequence depends on the severity and impact they have on the fluidity and continuity of the program. The following guideline should be used:


8.00 – 8.75** Very good 2 or more serious errors
7.00 – 7.75 Good

**When there are 2 or more errors and these errors only minimally impact the program, the maximum score of 8.75 is possible.

Nowhere did any judge give Adam higher than 8.75 in PCS because they followed the rules.

https://skatingscores.com/2324/wc/sr/men/i/short/fra/adam_siao_him_fa/element/6

I posted the above link to kill two birds with one stone - to show his SSQ scores from all judges as well as all of his PCS scores showing nothing higher than 8.75.

Adam got the highest step sequence score in the 2024 Worlds SP. (5.85) No shocker, really. Adam has a long history of having a high SSQ score. For some unknown reason, there are far too many people who refuse to learn there are guidelines in judging PCS and think if someone falls, or blows a jump, their PCS has to suffer greatly. That is incorrect. When they're an excellent skater and don't miss a beat in the program after falling, which is what occurred with Adam, you will not see a big hit in PCS. Nor should you.

I don't care what happened in France, I care what happened at Worlds. The fact that you didn't even reference the PCS guidelines tells me you have something subjective going on that appears to mean more to you than how to properly score a program.

Agreed, and to this I would add that PCS scores cannot be reliably compared between events.

Adam’s SP PCS of 43.37 at GP France were the second highest in the event, just barely behind Yuma Kagiyama who scored 43.95.

At Worlds, his 42.29 tied with Kao Miura, who also had a fall in his program, for eighth.

 

[Crowdproud]

From ISU PCS guidelines
https://www.isu.org/synchronized-sk...oks-faq/31479-program-components-chart-2/file

Serious Error(s)
Serious errors are falls and/or mistakes which result in a break in the delivery of the program. This break can be minimal or more pronounced and noticeable. These errors must be reflected in the mark awarded for each program component. The consequence depends on the severity and impact they have on the fluidity and continuity of the program. The following guideline should be used:

8.00 – 8.75** Very good 2 or more serious errors
7.00 – 7.75 Good

**When there are 2 or more errors and these errors only minimally impact the program, the maximum score of 8.75 is possible.

Nowhere did any judge give Adam higher than 8.75 in PCS because they followed the rules.

This presumes that -- when skated cleanly -- Adam should be getting 9.50s & 10s. He never gets PCS that high because his basic skating skills, performance, etc are not on that level.

 

[Mathman]

Did the ISU do anything about that?

Nothing dramatic, though they continued on the crusade gradually to reduce the weight of figures and eventually to eliminate them altogether. At the 1988 Olympics Orser got 3rd in figures and Boitano 2nd (neither was outstanding in that regard), Orser won the SP with Boitano 2nd, and in the free, Boitano edged Orser 5 judges to 4, winning on tie breakers on several judges' cards. (Tech > artistic in those days and Boitano did two triple Axels to Orser's one. Later the ISU changed the tie breaker to the second mark).

Despite the hype and publicity of the Battle of the Brians, figure skating was a ladies' sport in those days. The ISU was not so concerned with creating and promoting a male star as they had been for Janet Lynn. And in fact two years earlier (1986) Scott Hamilton got so disgusted with the socond-class treatment that male professional skaters faced with Ice Capades that he quit in disgust and started Stars on Ice. (Dorothy Hamill, in contrast, bought Ice capades.)

 

[Arigato]

This presumes that -- when skated cleanly -- Adam should be getting 9.50s & 10s. He never gets PCS that high because his basic skating skills, performance, etc are not on that level.

Red herring.

 

[4everchan]

Nothing dramatic, though they continued on the crusade gradually to reduce the weight of figures and eventually to eliminate them altogether. At the 1988 Olympics Orser got 3rd in figures and Boitano 2nd (neither was outstanding in that regard), Orser won the SP with Boitano 2nd, and in the free, Boitano edged Orser 5 judges to 4, winning on tie breakers on several judges' cards. (Tech > artistic in those days and Boitano did two triple Axels to Orser's one. Later the ISU changed the tie breaker to the second mark).

Despite the hype and publicity of the Battle of the Brians, figure skating was a ladies' sport in those days. The ISU was not so concerned with creating and promoting a male star as they had been for Janet Lynn. And in fact two years earlier (1986) Scott Hamilton got so disgusted with the socond-class treatment that male professional skaters faced with Ice Capades that he quit in disgust and started Stars on Ice. (Dorothy Hamill, in contrast, bought Ice capades.)

in other words, Orser could be two times Olympic Champion, under rules that came in later No wonder why it's hard to get into figure skating long term with all the rule changes both under 6.0 and IJS.

 

[Arigato]

Agreed, and to this I would add that PCS scores cannot be reliably compared between events.

Reliable data might be a concern for both of us, but for some people it is of no concern. That's a problem.

Adam’s SP PCS of 43.37 at GP France were the second highest in the event, just barely behind Yuma Kagiyama who scored 43.95.

At Worlds, his 42.29 tied with Kao Miura, who also had a fall in his program, for eighth.

Maybe Kao Miura got 'reputational' treatment. But I doubt it.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I said it in the competition thread, and I will say it again. If a generational talent like Jason Brown is not winning world and Olympic medals, the scoring system is wrong.

If he was skating his absolute best programs I would agree, but after 2018 his artistry has become worse. And even at his absolute best, there are still others who have done excellent artistic programs with harder jump content. Without a quad, it's always going to be dicey. But yeah, the system and judges don't separate the programs/performances well enough. Malinin should have been down in 5th last year, Aymoz and Brown were robbed there. Malinin improved a lot this year though. There's more of an ownership of the space and his movements and the music. It's not an amazing level of artistry, but good enough that his insane technical content in the LP (when done cleanly) deserves to beat the most artistic program ever, if that program doesn't have some quads.

 

[jenaj]

It probably is... I recall some jumps like from 8 to 2nd etc... but 19 to 3rd ? nope... BUT it would be in history because this would have been impossible before IJS anyway. In 6.0 if you ranked even just 10th in the SP, pretty much forget about a medal. pretty much impossible. I'd be curious to know what was the biggest jump in 6.0 actually

I don't know, but Kurt Browning went from 12th to 5th at the 1988 Olympics. Tara Lipinski went from 22nd to 15th at 1996 Worlds. Both 7 places.

 

[lariko]

Well, we can't fault skaters of the past for not skating the way we were destined to come to know it 50 years in the future.

By the way, another skater who was done in by figuees was Brian Orser. At the 1984 Olympics he won the short program and the long, but was only 7th in figures, losing to Scott Hamilton (1st in figures, 2nd in short, 2nd in long).

Actually, over 200. I looked it up. The whole figures business is so 18th century....

 

[soccerjc77]

The performance that I liked the most from the men was Adam Siao Him Fa. It was captivating and mesmerizing. And, the backflip at the end of the program made me cry. It's like that he was telling us, you see what I'm capable of, I gave everything and I don't care about the end result. I burst into tears in the arena because it was so beautiful at that time and I was so sad for him that he had very little chance of winning a medal because of his short program. It was the performance of the night. And, this comeback from 19th place to 3rd place is the thing that impressed me the most in this worlds in Montreal.

France's Adam Siao Him Fa SHOOTS from 19th to 3rd after men's free routine despite ILLEGAL move

Adam thought he was so far out of the top three that he went for an enthusiastic and harrowing routine leaving it all out on the ice. Even after the points d...

www.youtube.com

 

[Mathman]

Actually, over 200. I looked it up. The whole figures business is so 18th century....

One of my favorite centuries.