2024 Worlds: Ice Dance thoughts and comments

[Magill]

of course we will agree to disagree and taste is personal. no problem with that... however, there is something to clarify... how else would they call their free dance ? they chose a soundtrack that is the soundtrack of a movie called like that... LaLa skated to a piece called Roses... would you think it was about pretty but thorny flowers when you saw it ? FBS skated to NDP.. however, chose to focus on songs that are less popular than le temps des cathédrales for instance... is that wrong ? How should they call their FD ? Does it have anything to do with the actual story : they said nope.. they are doing their own story focusing on one character... etc don't quote me on this... I remember reading about it a long time ago and I don't remember everything.

My point is that you are totally allowed to like or not like a free dance... but if the reason is about linking or not to a title, a book or a soundtrack, then most teams use the music or themes as inspiration but do not pretend to interpret really what is expected...

I loved L/B RD on Mylène Farmer... not sure the marionette idea has anything much to do with the song does it ?

(no need to reply... I respect that you are opting to bow out from this conversation... I am just not ready to do so myself)

Ok, not to prolong this discussion but also not to leave your question unanswered: They couldn't. If they did not want their program to be perceived in the context of Wuthering Heights, they should not choose the music from Wuthering Heights. It is as simple as this. Once they did, they gave everyone and anyone the right to relate what they show on the ice to the book and its huge artistic legacy. There is a reason why this story was picked up so many times by artists from so many different fields who wanted to relate to it or say something new about it, offer some insight, or use it as a reference. It made the very title itself extremely "loaded". To pretend otherwise is just naive. It is just not the same as choosing a "Roses".... Making this selection Piper and Paul should have been aware of this. They are 30+ and not teens. And, no, I do not mean enacting any scene or the story as such. I mean just living up to its legend and staying in tune with its spirit.
Now I really bow out from here.

 

[4everchan]

Ok, not to prolong this discussion but also not to leave your question unanswered: They couldn't. If they did not want their program to be perceived in the context of Wuthering Heights, they should not choose the music from Wuthering Heights. It is as simple as this. Once they did, they gave everyone and anyone the right to relate what they show on the ice to the book and its huge artistic legacy. There is a reason why this story was picked up so many times by artists from so many different fields who wanted to relate to it or say something new about it, offer some insight, or use it as a reference. It made the very title itself extremely "loaded". To pretend otherwise is just naive. It is just not the same as choosing a "Roses".... Making this selection Piper and Paul should have been aware of this. They are 30+ and not teens. And, no, I do not mean enacting any scene or the story as such. I mean just living up to its legend and staying in tune with its spirit.
Now I really bow out from here.

Meh. They explained their take on it. Maybe you need to read it. And btw, this is not performing arts but figure skating. Many skaters just pick music they like. Patrick skated to Mac the knife and clearly it was a bubbly performance that had nothing to do with the original but hey, Bublé 's rendition of the tune was cheery

No need to be so obtuse about this

Of course, just my opinion
.

 

[Mathman]

... this story was picked up so many times by artists from so many different fields who wanted to relate to it or say something new about it, offer some insight, or use it as a reference. It made the very title itself extremely "loaded."

To me, the title "Wuthering Heights"is already loaded, 'wuthering' referring to sinister and unnatural winds haunting the heights. Or do I just think this because of the book and its subsequent treatment by literary critics and artists from other fields?

Anyway @Magill I do have to say that Piper's open-mouthed facial expressions were indeed very reminiscent of the Kate Bush performance. It would be cool to know whether the skaters or choreographer deliberately used that model.

(OT. Did the singer do her own dancing in the video or was that a body double?)

 

[Andrina]

I loved L/B RD on Mylène Farmer... not sure the marionette idea has anything much to do with the song does it ?

The video clip is a revisited Pinocchio story. A story about a man who falls in love with a marionnette that becomes alive.

Mylène Farmer – Sans contrefaçon (Clip Officiel HD)

www.youtube.com

Evgenia's outift also matches the video clip.

The song itself has nothing to do with marionettes, though. It is about sexual ambiguity.

 

[4everchan]

The video clip is a revisited Pinocchio story. A story about a man who falls in love with a marionnette that becomes alive.

Mylène Farmer – Sans contrefaçon (Clip Officiel HD)

www.youtube.com

Evgenia's outift also matches the video clip.

The song itself has nothing to do with marionettes, though. It is about sexual ambiguity.

Thanks.i only knew the song.. not the video clip.

I have a CD box of Farmer' greatest hits. So many memories.

 

[TallyT]

(OT. Did the singer do her own dancing in the video or was that a body double?)

Oh she always does her own, she is a trained dancer (I suggest checking out the video for Running Up That Hill, which has recently become a huge hit for the second time).

 

[Mathman]

Patrick skated to Max the knife and clearly it was a bubbly performance that had nothing to do with the original but hey, Bublé 's rendition of the tune was cheery

The original, with lyrics by the iconoclast and deliberately provocative writer Berthold Brecht, was a chronical of the viscious and conscienceless crimes, including rape, murder, arson resulting in the deaths of children, by the protagonist. Brecht's famous threory of theater was that your play had failed if the audience left the venue feeling good and was successful if they left feeling outraged at the wrongs of society.

With each rewriting of the words and each new theatrical production of the Three-penny opera and derivatives, this heavy load was systematically sanitized ro make it palatable to the public, culminating in the Bobby Darin version as a catchy up-beat finger-snapper in 1959. Patrick's "cool dude out on the town" was very much in this tradition (and a great SP for him, as was the similar Take Five.)

 

[4everchan]

The original, with lyrics by the iconoclast and deliberately provocative writer Berthold Brecht, was a chronical of the viscious and conscienceless crimes, including rape, murder, arson resulting in the deaths of children, by the protagonist. Brecht's famous threory of theater was that your play had failed if the audience left the venue feeling good and was successful if they left feeling outraged at the wrongs of society.

With each rewriting of the words and each new theatrical production of the Three-penny opera and derivatives, this heavy load was systematically sanitized ro make it palatable to the public, culminating in the Bobby Darin version as a catchy up-beat finger-snapper in 1959. Patrick's "cool dude out on the town" was very much in this tradition (and a great SP for him, as was the similar Take Five.)

Yup.. that's my point.. there are more layers to the original reference.. just like the Mylène Farmer's song turned into marionettes... Though she did that herself

Skaters can take lead from the original, other translations of the works or even just make the music their own and anything in between.

 

[Andrina]

By the way, the second song from L/B short dance - Tristana - has a fairytale-based video clip, too.

This time Mylène Farmer revisited The Snow-white. In her version, the seven dwarfs became communists. Real ones, from 1917, with Karl Marx's portrait on the wall.

Obviously, in the end, the Snow-White made a revolution against the Evil Queen.

That's a pity L/B didn't use that one for inspiration. But maybe someone in synchronized figure skating will? After all, there are at least seven dwarfs to interpret...

 

[TallyT]

Yup.. that's my point.. there are more layers to the original reference.. just like the Mylène Farmer's song turned into marionettes... Though she did that herself

Skaters can take lead from the original, other translations of the works or even just make the music their own and anything in between.

They can, certainly... but like any performance in any field anyone audience member can dislike it for whatever reason they choose (that's what public performance is all about, after all). The main thing for Piper and Paul is that the judges like and reward the skating. Which they did.

 

[4everchan]

They can, certainly... but like any performance in any field anyone audience member can dislike it for whatever reason they choose (that's what public performance is all about, after all). The main thing for Piper and Paul is that the judges like and reward the skating. Which they did.

for sure you can dislike it because to you it means something else... however, it's a bit strange (in my humble opinion) to fault people for something they never attempted to do. At least, the judges indeed do the right thing : they do not care about such arguments. They look at the performance which is the only layer that matters. It's the same when skaters decide to skate to a legendary piece of skating music.. i.e Boléro.. Some fans will hate it. Some fans will appreciate it. The judges will not fault the skaters performing to Boléro thinking it's not the same as Torvill and Dean... They will judge what's being presented. I feel sorry for you that you cannot enjoy Piper and Paul's free dance because it is perhaps one of the best dances I have ever seen live (and I have been privileged since I live in two doors away from IAM). For instance, Olympic year, ACI Virtue Moir, Weaver Poje, Piper and Paul.... (have a look at the result's page for seniors and you will see the level of competition I often got in my hood) https://skatecanada.ca/latest-results/2017-autumn-classic-international-results/#tab-id-2

 

[4everchan]

By the way, the second song from L/B short dance - Tristana - has a fairytale-based video clip, too.

This time Mylène Farmer revisited The Snow-white. In her version, the seven dwarfs became communists. Real ones, from 1917, with Karl Marx's portrait on the wall.

Obviously, in the end, the Snow-White made a revolution against the Evil Queen.

That's a pity L/B didn't use that one for inspiration. But maybe someone in synchronized figure skating will? After all, there are at least seven dwarfs to interpret...

thank you for making me revisit Mylène Farmer's vidéoclips

For those who don't know, she was born in Montréal but essentially made career in France.. However, she was extremely popular in Québec, especially within the LGBTQ community.

Now that I have rewatched a few clips : it is all coming back. Her style of videoclips was always very daring and often even provocative. Perhaps more than Madonna even. Farmer didn't just sing lyrics and dance in her clips. Her videoclips were at times a complete transliteration of the songs. A short film, telling another story (big budgets at times !)

I invite anyone interested to go a trip down memory lane on youtube. i have watched a few more from songs I listened to as a kid...
Thanks again @Andrina for bringing up the marionettes as I had no recollection of that video. Evgeniia does have a physical resemblance even with Mylène.

BTW Désenchantée used to be my favourite song and it was often played in the bars in Montréal even way after it was released. It was iconic.

So much fun !!!!! Feeling young again but so old too


PS Sorry everyone for taking the thread somewhere else with the Mylène Farmer. However, I think the discussion is quite relevant as it seems apparent that some fans expect skaters to take a piece of music and bring its context to the ice....which fueled this debate, as other fans do not expect that from the skaters. I think we did have a thread about this if the moderators perhaps feel like moving the last few posts to it.

 

[rain]

for sure you can dislike it because to you it means something else... however, it's a bit strange (in my humble opinion) to fault people for something they never attempted to do. At least, the judges indeed do the right thing : they do not care about such arguments. They look at the performance which is the only layer that matters. It's the same when skaters decide to skate to a legendary piece of skating music.. i.e Boléro.. Some fans will hate it. Some fans will appreciate it. The judges will not fault the skaters performing to Boléro thinking it's not the same as Torvill and Dean... They will judge what's being presented. I feel sorry for you that you cannot enjoy Piper and Paul's free dance because it is perhaps one of the best dances I have ever seen live (and I have been privileged since I live in two doors away from IAM). For instance, Olympic year, ACI Virtue Moir, Weaver Poje, Piper and Paul.... (have a look at the result's page for seniors and you will see the level of competition I often got in my hood) https://skatecanada.ca/latest-results/2017-autumn-classic-international-results/#tab-id-2

I immediately think of Johnny Cash's version of 'Hurt'. It was originally a Nine Inch Nails song about heroin addiction and suicide. Should Cash not have done his version because his interpretation wasn't exactly the same? We would have been denied an incredible piece of art.

 

[TallyT]

for sure you can dislike it because to you it means something else... however, it's a bit strange (in my humble opinion) to fault people for something they never attempted to do. At least, the judges indeed do the right thing : they do not care about such arguments. They look at the performance which is the only layer that matters. It's the same when skaters decide to skate to a legendary piece of skating music.. i.e Boléro.. Some fans will hate it. Some fans will appreciate it. The judges will not fault the skaters performing to Boléro thinking it's not the same as Torvill and Dean... They will judge what's being presented. I feel sorry for you that you cannot enjoy Piper and Paul's free dance because it is perhaps one of the best dances I have ever seen live (and I have been privileged since I live in two doors away from IAM). For instance, Olympic year, ACI Virtue Moir, Weaver Poje, Piper and Paul.... (have a look at the result's page for seniors and you will see the level of competition I often got in my hood) https://skatecanada.ca/latest-results/2017-autumn-classic-international-results/#tab-id-2

It comes down - for me as for everyone - to whether what someone achieves with source material is worth what they do to it (which answers the question on Johnny Cash, which is great even though oh so many covers are... well ouch). And that can be a very personal thing. Part of my reaction, after all, is fuelled by initial hopes and subsequent disappointment, but Piper and Paul can manage quite happily without my hopes.

Anyway, on to another year!

 

[4everchan]

It comes down - for me as for everyone - to whether what someone achieves with source material is worth what they do to it. And that can be a very personal thing.

This is competitive figure skating you know. It's a sport. Skaters have rules to follow. They have elements to put in. In 4 minutes. I am not discussing your personal impression on whether or not their take on WH is relevant to your interpretation of the sources..... I am discussing the relevance of even blaming a team on such an agenda, because it's not a valid argument in my humble opinion, not in sport.

 

[DancingCactus]

I have read the book once, years ago. It was dramatic and depressing, but at least I liked it better than Jane Eyre. The only thing that I really remember and that really left an impression on me is that love/hate realtionship between Cathy and Heathcliff and her death scene.

Piper and Paul captured exactly that and they made it eerily beautiful.

Maybe for someone who has studies that book and its adapations in detail, it is about more than that central theme, but to me, the essence of Wuthering Heights was captured and translated into figure skating. And tbh, it doesn't really matter if you know the book or not to enjoy the program. It's good enough to stand on its own.

But to each their own I guess.

I only find it a bit mean when some commentators (at TSL for example) constantly harp on about Piper's expression, open mouth, whatever as if it was some character flaw on not a matter of personal taste.

 

[peepsquick]

I have read the book once, years ago. It was dramatic and depressing, but at least I liked it better than Jane Eyre. The only thing that I really remember and that really left an impression on me is that love/hate realtionship between Cathy and Heathcliff and her death scene.

Piper and Paul captured exactly that and they made it eerily beautiful.

Maybe for someone who has studies that book and its adapations in detail, it is about more than that central theme, but to me, the essence of Wuthering Heights was captured and translated into figure skating. And tbh, it doesn't really matter if you know the book or not to enjoy the program. It's good enough to stand on its own.

But to each their own I guess.

I only find it a bit mean when some commentators (at TSL for example) constantly harp on about Piper's expression, open mouth, whatever as if it was some character flaw on not a matter of personal taste.

For me, Kate Bush's eerily dissonant and captivating "Wuthering Height" encapsulates well he mood of the book. Did you listen to it? (warning: it can be an acquired taste ...)

 

[4everchan]

So many people talking about Kate Bush, yet they didn't skate to that piece and thank goodness. I listened to it... It's not for the skating rink.

 

[peepsquick]

So many people talking about Kate Bush, yet they didn't skate to that piece and thank goodness. I listened to it... It's not for the skating rink.

No, it's not! ... even though the Piper and Paul's of old might have been tempted!

 

[rain]

I only find it a bit mean when some commentators (at TSL for example) constantly harp on about Piper's expression, open mouth, whatever as if it was some character flaw on not a matter of personal taste.

I think Piper's performance ability and expressiveness is one of her greatest strengths. I imagine her facial expressions were nowhere near too much when watching in an arena (I didn't find them overdone watching close up on a screen). She is amazing at creating a mood. She and Paul do it better than anyone else skating today. Trying to make that into a flaw is baffling to me.