Adjustments to PCS in Skating Skills

[Baron Vladimir]

Saying that loss of control or stumble/touchdown outside of the required elements is 0.5 points deduction in SS component per each stumble and per each partner. I don't know it exists in single/pair skating requirements, i found it in Ice Dance requirements. Also, i'm not sure that exact recommendation was applicable this season, or it will started in next one, cause Chock/Bates for example shouldn't be scored with 9.21 in SS for their FD at 4CC in that case :confused2: Anyway, its one of the changes in components i was very happy to see (together with required deduction in PCS for fall/falls/visible mistakes during the performance). How do you feel about changes in components scoring regarding mistakes/falls during the programme? Do you find them helpful in evaluation of skaters performance? Does judging of components look more 'objective' with them? What are some of other recommendations for 'deductions' in components iSU can implement? Fell free to propose!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

A stumble should definitely compromise SS. And really it should compromise the other categories too.

A stumble compromises a performance from being as good as it can be, often “breaks” interpretation, and disrupts choreography. It also should reduce transitions if it affects connective movements or a stumble occurs on a transition that is normally there.

This includes stumbles at the end of programs too, when we have seen skaters fall or stumble in their final pose - and especially if you’re a top skater you hardly see any deduction or the judges ignore it.

Of course some stumbles are more severe than others. Frankly if a fall is a mandatory 1 deduction a recognizable stumble (an obvious tripping not on an element) should reduce all PCS maximums by 0.25 for each one. Balance checks are okay but a judge should notice and deduct if a skater continually exhibits breaks in carriage and a lack of control.

It should also be noted that stumbles should reflect deductions applied to what the judge WOULD have given if not for the stumble.

Some categories like PE shouldn’t get more than a 9.5 if there is a stumble. Few performances are a 9.5 anyways and with a stumble they definitely don’t deserve a near perfect score.

 

[WeakAnkles]

Still doesn't address the problem with levels in ice dance, nor the really egregious and massive overinflation of choreographic elements, elements which aren't even judged by the tech panel.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

A stumble should definitely compromise SS. And really it should compromise the other categories too.

A stumble compromises a performance from being as good as it can be, often “breaks” interpretation, and disrupts choreography. It also should reduce transitions if it affects connective movements or a stumble occurs on a transition that is normally there.

This includes stumbles at the end of programs too, when we have seen skaters fall or stumble in their final pose - and especially if you’re a top skater you hardly see any deduction or the judges ignore it.

Of course some stumbles are more severe than others. Frankly if a fall is a mandatory 1 deduction a recognizable stumble (an obvious tripping not on an element) should reduce all PCS maximums by 0.25 for each one. Balance checks are okay but a judge should notice and deduct if a skater continually exhibits breaks in carriage and a lack of control.

It should also be noted that stumbles should reflect deductions applied to what the judge WOULD have given if not for the stumble.

Some categories like PE shouldn’t get more than a 9.5 if there is a stumble. Few performances are a 9.5 anyways and with a stumble they definitely don’t deserve a near perfect score.

I've noticed that Ice Dance tech committee tried to make a differentiation in some types of 'mistakes' in their new communication. For example, 'loss of control with additional support (e.g. stumble/touchdown)' is more serious mistake than 'loss of control without additional support'. While both should have impact on Skating Skills category (according to new regulations), loss of control with additional support, as more serious and quite visible one can probably impact the whole performance and make some additional deductions in other categories, if judges are willing to give them

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Also, the interesting thing i've noticed (while attending 2019 men LP watch party :yes is lack of all types of jumps in mens long programmes. With inclusion of that many quads is probably harder to make all types of jumps in the programme happening, but it is still possible (for example Yuzu just need to replace his 3Lo with 3Lz to have all types of jumps, and Nathan and Vincent could jump one triple-3Lo combo instead of their planned triple-3T combo). While majority of mens programmes don't include just one type of jump (usually Lo or Lz), Shoma's free programme didn't have both of those types of jumps, and if i'm a judge i would probably deduct half a point in his Composition, for not considering it well-balanced enough. I just think that some sort of deduction in COmposition mark in those cases would be fair to skaters who are trying to perform all types of jumps in their free and making their programmes more 'balanced'.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Also, the interesting thing i've noticed (while attending 2019 men LP watch party :yes is lack of all types of jumps in mens long programmes. With inclusion of that many quads is probably harder to make all types of jumps in the programme happening, but it is still possible (for example Yuzu just need to replace his 3Lo with 3Lz to have all types of jumps, and Nathan and Vincent could jump one triple-3Lo combo instead of their planned triple-3T combo). While majority of mens programmes don't include just one type of jump (usually Lo or Lz), Shoma's free programme didn't have both of those types of jumps, and if i'm a judge i would probably deduct half a point in his Composition, for not considering it well-balanced enough. I just think that some sort of deduction in COmposition mark in those cases would be fair to skaters who are trying to perform all types of jumps in their free and making their programmes more 'balanced'.

SO this will result in:
- people attempting low quality jumps they are bad at to get more PCS - such as somebody who has an edge problem on a flip or lutz.
- people getting more points for doing a low value triple compared to a high value triple.
- People attempting less quads to include every type of jump.
- people attempting combinations that they don't do as well and missing them more often.

Some people have problem jumps. For shoma, it's lutz (although he has some questionable jumping technique in general). I'd rather Shoma leave out lutz than attempt an ugly one which ruins the performance appearance. For Kolyada there was a time when he was struggling with loop AND flip. I'd rather see him go clean with planned double axels and attempting 3/5 triples with perfect beautiful technique during that time rather than putting in a flip which had an edge issue in order to maintain high PCS.

Boyang jin 2019 started excluding triple flip and triple loop. I'd rather see him do the jumps he does beautifully than either of those.

At the end of the day, if everybody did every jump the jump contents would look the same and become boring...

 

[Baron Vladimir]

^^^
SO this will result in:
- people attempting low quality jumps they are bad at to get more PCS - such as somebody who has an edge problem on a flip or lutz.
Well, skaters are attempting quads to get more points, even most of their triples have better quality majority of times, so... Also, majority of ladies who have lutz and flip edge problems from time to time are still not afraid to attempt those jumps in a competition...
- people getting more points for doing a low value triple compared to a high value triple.
Actually, it's a higher value types of jumps man are not attempting - Lz, Lo and sometimes F.
- People attempting less quads to include every type of jump.
In Yuzu and Nathan cases i mentioned, that wouldn't compromise number of quads in their programme.
- people attempting combinations that they don't do as well and missing them more often
They can perform 2Lo or 3Lo instead of a 2T or 3T in a combo they planned (we see ladies are doing loop combos more and more often) and learn to execute different types of combos that way. That's the point of having more balanced COmposition.
- At the end of the day, if everybody did every jump the jump contents would look the same and become boring
I think it will be less boring to have different types of jumps and combos in one programme, than same ones. That's one of the reason i'm proposing it. And really, there are many different possibilities to include all types of jumps in free programme (you can include them as quads, triple or a double jump). Of course, skaters who can't do all types of jumps won't compromise clean performance for half a point in COmposition mark, but we saw many of top skaters can do them, and i think they should be somehow rewarded if they can execute them. Maybe those skaters who perform them can have some kind of bonus in CO, instead to deduct points from others, if that sounds more fair

 

[kolyadafan2002]

^^^
SO this will result in:
- people attempting low quality jumps they are bad at to get more PCS - such as somebody who has an edge problem on a flip or lutz.
Well, skaters are attempting quads to get more points, even most of their triples have better quality majority of times, so... Also, majority of ladies who have lutz and flip edge problems from time to time are still not afraid to attempt those jumps in a competition...
- people getting more points for doing a low value triple compared to a high value triple.
Actually, it's a higher value types of jumps man are not attempting - Lz, Lo and sometimes F.
- People attempting less quads to include every type of jump.
In Yuzu and Nathan cases i mentioned, that wouldn't compromise number of quads in their programme.
- people attempting combinations that they don't do as well and missing them more often
They can perform 2Lo or 3Lo instead of a 2T or 3T in a combo they planned (we see ladies are doing loop combos more and more often) and learn to execute different types of combos that way. That's the point of having more balanced COmposition.
- At the end of the day, if everybody did every jump the jump contents would look the same and become boring
I think it will be less boring to have different types of jumps and combos in one programme, than same ones. That's one of the reason i'm proposing it. And really, there are many different possibilities to include all types of jumps in free programme (you can include them as quads, triple or a double jump). Of course, skaters who can't do all types of jumps won't compromise clean performance for half a point in COmposition mark, but we saw many of top skaters can do them, and i think they should be somehow rewarded if they can execute them. Maybe those skaters who perform them can have some kind of bonus in CO, instead to deduct points from others, if that sounds more fair

Many people find 3Lo combos very difficult. In reality, they are jumps which many men cant do and make mistakes on. Also the fact that on quads you're trained to put your leg back naturally, so to exercise the control on a 3A or quad it will be very difficult to put it in combination with a 3Lo.
In reality I think planned tech content should not effect PCS in this way as long as the jumps are spread out through the program. In general, I'd rather see jumps done well with transitions rather than jumps done badly out of footwork.
By easy triples vs hard triples, I mean easy vs hard on a person by person basis. I like to see jumps done properly rather than people like Mikhail kolyada or boyang jin doing a flip and getting an edge.
Yuzuru and Nathan are both special: - as they are the only cureent multiple quad jumpers who jump every single triple jump with good technique.
I like the current system as it makes skaters be clever. Skaters have to arrange and pick and choose elements that will yield the best results then, rather than be strictly forced by extra rules. I think we've found the balance that allows you to see a lot of variation between programs. It allows people to maximise the jumps they are good at, so we get higher quality of jumps.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

^^^
I agree that clean performance should be the first thing to motivate skaters programme. But i also think that should be a reward for skaters who can execute all possible types of jumps in one exact performance. I didn't think about is as a rule (which all skaters must follow), but to be something similar as jumping in the second half bonus. The same way skaters who can jump combo in a second half are getting more points, because it is more demanding to do it, it is harder (and more balanced) COmposition in which skaters are able to execute all types of jump instead of one where they are repeating same types of jumps.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

^^^
I agree that clean performance should be the first thing to motivate skaters programme. But i also think that should be a reward for skaters who can execute all possible type of jumps in one exact performance. I didn't think about is as a rule (which all skaters must follow), but to be something similar as jumping in the second half bonus. The same way skaters who can jump combo in a second half are getting more points, because it is more demanding to do it, it is harder COmposition in which skaters are able to execute all types of jump instead of one where they are repeating same types of jumps.

At that point give them an extra 2 or 3 points on TES, before jumping to PCS. Jumping ability should never effect PCS (it unfortunately does due to internal bias, but by the book rules show its shouldn't be effected by jumping ability, only by mistakes).

 

[Mathman]

SO this will result in:
- people attempting low quality jumps they are bad at to get more PCS - such as somebody who has an edge problem on a flip or lutz.
- people getting more points for doing a low value triple compared to a high value triple.
- People attempting less quads to include every type of jump.
- people attempting combinations that they don't do as well and missing them more often.

I think one could argue that all those things would be are good for the sport, rather than bad. The whole point of Zayak-type ruless and restrictions on jump content is so that the skater is forced to master "the full skating vocabulary" and not just do what he is best at over and over.

For instance, Anna Shcherbakova does 2 quad Lutzes and 2 triple Lutzes in her 7 jumping passes. Well, good for her. But if there were a rule (or a bonus) for doing all of the 6 types of jumps, that might make for a more interesting program, as well as being a more impressive challenge for the skater.

Yes, it might force skaters to do fewer quads and to attempt jumps that they are not very good at. I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I think you one could argue that all those things would be are good for the sport, rather than bad. The whole point of Zayak-type ruless and restrictions on jump content is so that the skater is forced to master "the full skating vocabulary" and not just do what he is best at over and over.

For instance, Anna Shcherbakova does 2 quad Lutzes and 2 triple Lutzes in her 7 jumping passes. Well, good for her. But if there were a rule (or a bonus) for doing all of the 6 types of jumps, that might make for a more interesting program, as well as being a more impressive challenge for the skater.

Yes, it might force skaters to do fewer quads and to attempt jumps that they are not very good at. I don't see anything wrong with that.

But even with four 'Lutzes', she is still able to implement all of other types of jumps in her long programme. There is no any type of jump lacking there (argument that is possible to arrange a progamme with all types of jumps in multiple ways - even Trusova, with more attempted quads in her programme, have all of them). It's a thing i've noticed in mens long programmes, it's not common with the ladies :confused2:

 

[SkateSkates]

I think it would be interesting to require all 6 types of jumps to be in the program and/or the first jump of a combination - but I’m not sure how this should or shouldn’t affect PCS. Composition and transitions yes, but skating skills less so. This is because If you are doing 3 lutzes or 4 axels in the program, even with somewhat varied transitions, in the end the patterns and entries end up looking fairly similar for most skaters. But this idea I had was more for if there ends up being a “technical” program, as it shows mastery of technique across all jump entries. Or if they ever decided to introduce element segments, which I think would be really cool but totally unrealistic to ever happen. It wouldn’t make sense in the current program format.

 

[SteamedEggplant]

Personally I'd rather see more emphasis placed on things like creativity of spin positions and complex and interesting step sequences. Making sure a skater has every type of jump shouldn't really weigh on PCS that much. Where the skater places each element and having interesting transitions in and out of it should be more important, rather than having the same basic layout for every program and in some cases step sequences being an almost direct copy-paste from past programs on top of different music.

It'd be nice to see skaters attempt every jump and execute them with textbook technique, but I don't think that is the most crucial aspect of programs that needs looking at.

 

[lzxnl]

Why exactly are we NOT encouraging skaters to know all of the jumps? Much like how with spins, you can't repeat features, or how there already is a restriction on jump repetitions, if balance is the aim of all these rules, a bonus for having all the jump types is natural. Also, having to train more types of jumps is more technically demanding than training less types of jumps. For instance, the following two jump layouts have comparable TES, but who do you think has a harder time training their jumps?

4F (11.00)
4T+2T (9.50 + 1.30 = 10.80, cumulative 21.80)
4T (9.50, cumulative 30.30)
3A (8.00, cumulative 38.30)
3A+Eu+3S (8.00 + 0.50 + 4.30 = 12.80, cumulative 51.10)
3F+3T (5.30 + 4.20 = 9.50, cumulative 60.60)
2A (3.30, cumulative 63.90)
Total = 63.90

vs
4T (9.50)
4S (9.70, cumulative = 19.20)
3A (8.00, cumulative = 27.20)
3A+2T (8.00 + 1.30 = 9.30, cumulative = 36.50)
3Lz+Eu+3S (5.90 + 0.50 + 4.30 = 10.70, cumulative = 47.20)
3F+3T (5.30 + 4.20 = 9.50, cumulative = 56.70)
3Lo (4.90, cumulative = 61.60)
3S (4.30, cumulative = 65.90)
Total: 65.90

The first skater only has four out of the six types of jumps; no loops or lutzes. The second skater has all types of jumps. It's a bit of an extreme example though.

 

[YuBluByMe]

The second skater has all types of jumps. It's a bit of an extreme example though.

Not that extreme. Your second example is actually pretty close to Junhwan Cha’s free skate layout.

I personally think it’s UNSAT that a skater could leave Juniors without having all their triples squared away, especially since Juniors have a mandatory solo triple in the short program. This is not a problem with the ladies because the majority of ladies aren’t doing 4s or 3A. So they have to know their triples to be competitive: a lady without a +3Lo will do six triples and two 2As (i.e, Tennell) and a lady with a +3Lo will do 7 triples and a 2A (i.e, Zagitova). With men, quads replace triples, perhaps their weakest 3. But I have a big problem with that. If you can’t do a 3Lz, why the heck are you doing a 4T? It better be the best 4T in the world then but that’s never the case.

+3Lo combinations are incredibly rare among senior men. The only two senior men doing them are Junhwan Cha (who learned 3Lz+3Lo after he became senior) and Alexei Krasnozhon, who does both 3F+3Lo and 3Lz+3Lo. (Actually, now that I’m thinking of it, I swear I saw some early warm-up guy do a 3S+3Lo or 3Lo+3Lo in the SP. But he might’ve been a Junior.). I expect Cha to dump the 3Lz+3Lo once he starts putting his quads in combination and Krasnozhon doesn’t have a stable quad yet. The 4Lo is still just an overrotated 3lo most of the time so he’ll keep doing +3Los.

Uno can’t do a 3Lz, but he’s certainly not going to do a 2Lz instead because that will hurt his base value. Same for Kolyada who has an obvious lip. I think the idea that such a thing should effect PCS is nonsense. This is a technical issue, and as such, it’s the TES that should be affected. If I were on a judging panel, I’ll dock off TES points everytime Uno does a 3S+3T. That combo is UNSAT for a top skater. This goes for any skater that has an obvious technical deficiency that has nothing to do with injury.

I also strongly disagree that composition has anything to do with the type of jumps performed. The composition is the structure of the program. How the program is set up. The flow of each element and its purpose with regards to the music. An example of poor composition will be Hanyu’s Seimei as performed at 4CC. He opens with a 4Lz, then follows with a 4S. Then 3A, 3F, and spin back-to-back-back. Four completely different jumps, but the flow is incredibly rushed and the spin is off the music. An example of great composition will be Kevin Aymoz’s FS as performed at GPF. He repeats 4T, even falling on the second. But everything is timed well. The choreo sequence is right on the music’s climax and he ends the program with a memorable step sequence. There’s not a step, movement, or transition out of place. That is what composition is.

I’m also all for docking extra points for stumbles. I even think falls on step sequences and spins should have a more severe penalty than falls on jumps. Falls on jumps, well, quads are practically expected. Falls when you’re stepping, no. Falls when you’re spinning, hell no. That shouldn’t even be a thing.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Why exactly are we NOT encouraging skaters to know all of the jumps? Much like how with spins, you can't repeat features, or how there already is a restriction on jump repetitions, if balance is the aim of all these rules, a bonus for having all the jump types is natural. Also, having to train more types of jumps is more technically demanding than training less types of jumps. For instance, the following two jump layouts have comparable TES, but who do you think has a harder time training their jumps?

4F (11.00)
4T+2T (9.50 + 1.30 = 10.80, cumulative 21.80)
4T (9.50, cumulative 30.30)
3A (8.00, cumulative 38.30)
3A+Eu+3S (8.00 + 0.50 + 4.30 = 12.80, cumulative 51.10)
3F+3T (5.30 + 4.20 = 9.50, cumulative 60.60)
2A (3.30, cumulative 63.90)
Total = 63.90

vs
4T (9.50)
4S (9.70, cumulative = 19.20)
3A (8.00, cumulative = 27.20)
3A+2T (8.00 + 1.30 = 9.30, cumulative = 36.50)
3Lz+Eu+3S (5.90 + 0.50 + 4.30 = 10.70, cumulative = 47.20)
3F+3T (5.30 + 4.20 = 9.50, cumulative = 56.70)
3Lo (4.90, cumulative = 61.60)
3S (4.30, cumulative = 65.90)
Total: 65.90

The first skater only has four out of the six types of jumps; no loops or lutzes. The second skater has all types of jumps. It's a bit of an extreme example though.

And if the person had a lot of stamina and did 1 quad and 2 3As in second half whereas the other person had the same layout they currently had then I'm sure he would get higher base value. And then we take into account the extra goe on a nice quad.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I also strongly disagree that composition has anything to do with the type of jumps performed. The composition is the structure of the program. How the program is set up. The flow of each element and its purpose with regards to the music. An example of poor composition will be Hanyu’s Seimei as performed at 4CC. He opens with a 4Lz, then follows with a 4S. Then 3A, 3F, and spin back-to-back-back. Four completely different jumps, but the flow is incredibly rushed and the spin is off the music. An example of great composition will be Kevin Aymoz’s FS as performed at GPF. He repeats 4T, even falling on the second. But everything is timed well. The choreo sequence is right on the music’s climax and he ends the program with a memorable step sequence. There’s not a step, movement, or transition out of place. That is what composition is.

But it can have something, from what i was told to. Jumps and all of other required elements (skater is able to perform in one exact competition) are part of a program as a whole and composition of the programme. As that they certainly have impact on different components. Composition which in general demonstrate more variety in skating vocabulary (and which include skating patterns, body positions in spins, general jumping ability and many other things) are part of the CO score. CO is not only how the elements are timed with the music (well that's more INterpretation of the music), but which 'skating elements' (required or not) skaters perform in the programme, how he/she is 'constructing' them on the ice surface at the time of performance, and how all of that skating vocabulary is 'speaking' to the audience and with the music theme. That all has impact on composition score equally. Composition score given by the judges is not that much about how the program is set up - that is what choreographers do, but how skater translate those ideas through his skating vocabulary at the time of performance.

 

[YuBluByMe]

Jumps and all other required elements are part of a program as a whole and composition of the programme.

Exactly.

Composition which in general demonstrate more variety in skating vocabulary (and which include skating patterns, spins positions, general jumping ability too) will get a boost in CO score.

Exactly. Except I’ll add that if a skater doesn’t have a loop in his program, but lands all jumps cleanly, he has demonstrated “general jumping ability.”

CO is not only how the elements are timed with the music (well that's more INterpretation of the music), but what elements (required or not) skaters perform in the programme

Musical timing is only an example. Of course there’s more to it.

how he/she is 'constructing' them on the ice surface at the time of performance, and how all of that skating vocabulary is 'speaking' to the audience and with the music theme. That all has impact on Composition score equally.

Exactly. We completely agree on what composition is. We disagree on that the type of jumps should hold any bearing on it whatsoever. It’s the execution, timing, and placement of the jump that matters. Not the type.

But I definitely agree that there should be a penalty for a lack of variety in jumps. But that’s technical. It shouldn’t be lumped in with skating skills, either, because you be can the best jumper in the world and still have weak blade-to-ice skills. (But if you’re the best skater in the world but falling and stumbling out of your jumps, then by all means, subtract away.) Just dock a percentage off the final TES for not demonstrating an ability to execute jumps of all type. Simple yet effective.

But what should the percentage be? 5? 10?

 

[Baron Vladimir]

^^^
Well, instead of deducting (in composition score or anywhere else), I was also saying that performing all types of jumps can be rewarded with some kind of a bonus, similar with what jumps in a second half are getting (for example, the last type of a jump performed/the one which is missing to complete 'all types of jumps circle', can get additional 10% bonus). I don't have any other 'clever' ideas about it