Backspin - how long did it take you to get yours?

[Vicki7]

Random question I know but I’m curious to find out how long it took people to get their backspin, and when it started feeling comfortable, getting more than one rotation etc.

I’m currently working on the beginning of mine (pivot and then cross my feet) but can’t even get one rotation yet.

My coach is totally laid back about it, says there’s many tricks he has up his sleeve to help and that we’ll get there eventually, but it’s frustrating. Doesn’t help that I mostly skate with kids who seem to spin like tops!

For info, I do a 1 hour private lesson a week, a half hour group learn to skate class a week, and practice on my own for an hour a week. I also do a group show/performance class but that’s more fun stuff than learning new skills.

 

[Aimee-01]

Random question I know but I’m curious to find out how long it took people to get their backspin, and when it started feeling comfortable, getting more than one rotation etc.

I’m currently working on the beginning of mine (pivot and then cross my feet) but can’t even get one rotation yet.

My coach is totally laid back about it, says there’s many tricks he has up his sleeve to help and that we’ll get there eventually, but it’s frustrating. Doesn’t help that I mostly skate with kids who seem to spin like tops!

For info, I do a 1 hour private lesson a week, a half hour group learn to skate class a week, and practice on my own for an hour a week. I also do a group show/performance class but that’s more fun stuff than learning new skills.

I have been skating for five years now, and around the second year of skating I started feeling much more comfortable doing simple spins like a back spin

 

[marcopolobear]

Hi,

You haven't said how long you've been skating, but for adults certainly it can be as Aimee-01 said. Try not to compare yourself with the little ones, at that age the brain and body, reaction times etc. can all aid in learning skating skills very quickly. They may skate a lot more frequently too.

Trust your coach. What's an advantage as an adult is that we can have more patience and just follow our coaches instructions knowing they will teach us the correct steps that lead to successful elements. So if your coach is holding back now I'm sure it's because they want you to do a correct entry first and a correct stable body position on the proper edge and proper part of the foot afterwards. Good reliable spins need good reliable entries and a good body position which mean very good core strength too. What your coach is teaching your now is training for that.

These steps are important for later too. If any of my spins start to "go wonky", I will go back to these basic steps in order to refresh my muscle memory.

And just because the little ones are spinning like tops, doesn't mean they are great spinners. I've seen some pretty awful body positions with them that will need firm correction later!

M

 

[WednesdayMarch]

Adults and backspins are not an exact science. Or, actually, a science at all. In fact, I've found that with adults it's more a matter of witchcraft than either science or time...

My preferred method for the backspin is from a forward inside edge, tracing a half moon shape in the air with the free foot. Easier to demonstrate than explain. But in your case, Vicki, you need to just trust your coach and yourself and don't worry about timescale.

 

[Vicki7]

Oh I'm 100% trusting my coach with this one - we signed my salchow off today (and a couple of other things) and I said, "Remember when I used to drop my hip and tap my free foot down before I jumped these?" Poor coach looked at me, with the look of someone reliving a painful memory, and went, "Yeah... I remember that phase very well! But we worked through it, you trusted me and trusted the process and now we have a consistent jump." So I'll do whatever he says, even if it seems bizarre, or mean, or both.

I was more curious because I don't know many other adults working on their backspin and wondered if it's just me who struggles, or if EVERYONE goes through this phase and then eventually it clicks.

 

[WednesdayMarch]

I was more curious because I don't know many other adults working on their backspin and wondered if it's just me who struggles, or if EVERYONE goes through this phase and then eventually it clicks.

In my experience, every adult learner goes through that phase. It's definitely not just you.

 

[bostonskaterguy86]

I was more curious because I don't know many other adults working on their backspin and wondered if it's just me who struggles, or if EVERYONE goes through this phase and then eventually it clicks.

I’ve been off the ice for over a year between the pandemic and an ankle injury, but backspin and loop jump were the last two things I was working on!

It’s definitely not just you. For me, nothing about the backspin was difficult to understand or didn’t make sense, it was just … incredibly difficult to make it happen. Even when I nailed the entry (we did the inside 3 entry in my group class), I’d be lucky to hold it for one and a half revolutions!

 

[MiraiFan]

Backspin is still a struggle for me as well--I completely re-learned the entry this year and it's taken a while. While not completely comfortable, it's getting there slowly. Hang in there. Your coach sounds like he gets that working with adults is a process, and that's good. Keep at it!

 

[Girlbird]

The backspin is my nemesis as well. Adult skater here! I skated as a child up through my axel and a few doubles, and I believe my backspin was okay, but I don't really remember working on it that much or really struggling. Now as an adult (returned once for a few months in 2018 but couoldn't continue, now back on the since January and skating regularly), I have to practice it a ton to even find a true spin. I haven't been able to skate much lately so now when I try it's like I'm back to square one. I just switched my boots too. What really helps me is remembering the upper body twists pretty dramatically towards your skating leg. There's an opposition in effect. Holding that position on a back outside edge around the circle is a good drill. Coach Julia breaks it down pretty well on Youtube, it helped me a lot! I think it's a spin that in general, takes a long time to master. There's a lot to remember and it can feel scary.

 

[Nimyue]

The backspin took me ages as well.

I was landing axels and Dbl Sal a few months before I could backspin. Also progress on the backspin for me was really weird. It was horrible and going nowhere, then one day they just happened. It was not at all gradual. I started as an adult also. Just keep plugging away at it and trust your coach. Try not to stress.

FWIW, working on back sit was easier for me at first. My first backspin was a back sit, and then from there I just stood up. I had a hard time finding the place in an upright when I was learning it.

 

[fairyring]

I was landing axels and Dbl Sal a few months before I could backspin.

Oh wow. My coach gave me the impression that I had to master backspins before the loop jump, since I guess the air position is similar. Which...wasn't giving me too much faith in learning loop jumps since my backspins are wonky.

Adult skater here, I started working on backspins about 2 years ago, I think it took a few weeks to get to one rotation, and now on a good day I can manage 8 rotations or so. But even now backspins still feel incredibly unstable to me, half the time I lean too far back and fall out of the spin...

 

[Vicki7]

Yeah my coach wants a solid backspin because everything jump wise from now uses the air position.
I’m still no further along (at least I don’t think I am, coach probably sees some progress I don’t) and it’s really disheartening. Pivot gets me less than a rotation and I’m so bad at inside 3s the full entry is abject failure.

 

[emmarose92]

I actually started loops before I had a clean backspin, and my loop is my best jump. However, the backspin isn’t my favorite!

I started it from the pivot as well and for about two weeks struggled to get more than 1-1.5 rotations. Then it started to get better - each practice I’d get one or two that made 3-4 rotations.

My coach had me try the inside 3-turn entrance and it definitely worked better for me - I was getting 2.5 rotations consistently and on a good one, around 4-5 rotations.

it definitely just kind of clicked one day after about a month and a half of working on it - I am consistently getting at least 3 rotations now. It’s still a work in progress obviously. I think it’s partially confidence, partially me just forcing myself to not drop my hip and to fight to stay in for as many rotations as possible even when I’m scared

it will come! It just takes more time than many other things in skating.

 

[Girlbird]

Oh wow. My coach gave me the impression that I had to master backspins before the loop jump, since I guess the air position is similar. Which...wasn't giving me too much faith in learning loop jumps since my backspins are wonky.

Adult skater here, I started working on backspins about 2 years ago, I think it took a few weeks to get to one rotation, and now on a good day I can manage 8 rotations or so. But even now backspins still feel incredibly unstable to me, half the time I lean too far back and fall out of the spin...

Absolutely not true. Loop is my favorite jump, backspin is a different story. Double loops and single axels are often trained with a backspin though so it's important to work on it.

 

[gliese]

Off topic but related to the backspin beign a prereq to jumps: the fact that coaches start coaching backspins so late is a failure of the coaching "norms." Every coach that I've worked with that has produced olympians started working on backspin right after their student figured out a forward spin. Other coaches seem to wait until the higher singles, some even waiting until axel. Awful coaching method, especially for adults who take a LOT longer to figure out a back spin than young children.

Now backspin advice: It comes down to practice and physics and the latter is too complicated to explain in a paragraph so your coach will have to do it as you are learning. Focusing on what is important when practicing will help the most. So focus on the entry and the position of the spin separately and generally it will come together as you will have very good muscle memory.

Also, I'm a teenager who started skating with an awful coach and let me tell you, I spin fast but there's so many things wrong with the spins that many people don't see. That's often the case with younger children too whether their coach is good or bad because kids just want to do the spin whether it's done wrong or right. The ones with good coaches just fix the issues with the spin faster because it's pointed out to them before the mistakes become muscle memory. By taking it slowly and developing proper technique the way you are doing, you're making sure that once you get the spin, there's a lot less you have to fix and you will ultimately have a good spin faster than if you just tried to muscle through it.

Sorry if this makes no sense it's just a bunch of unrelated thoughts trying to become a seamless paragraph.

 

[WednesdayMarch]

I didn't learn backspins until I was already working on double jumps. (Back in the 1980s.) I was always better at a flying camel than a simple upright backspin. I totally agree with starting them much earlier, although I don't think it's necessary to have a solid backspin before starting to work on loop jumps.

 

[marcopolobear]

Actually lots of helpful stuff gliese

On the spin learning order, if fact in Carlo Fassi's book (excellent book) his order is: two foot spin, back spin, then forward spin! His reasoning is that the back spin is fundamental later skills like jumps, so it is essential to start learning it early.

Personally, I feel that learning it early also reinforces that the edge and turn skills need to be there first, otherwise it will be too difficult. So if that is your case, it can mean that your skills are lacking there; e.g. how well did you test on consecutive edges, all your single three's and all your double three's? And are you consistantly practicing them?

Cheers,


M

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Off topic but related to the backspin beign a prereq to jumps: the fact that coaches start coaching backspins so late is a failure of the coaching "norms." Every coach that I've worked with that has produced olympians started working on backspin right after their student figured out a forward spin. Other coaches seem to wait until the higher singles, some even waiting until axel. Awful coaching method, especially for adults who take a LOT longer to figure out a back spin than young children.

Now backspin advice: It comes down to practice and physics and the latter is too complicated to explain in a paragraph so your coach will have to do it as you are learning. Focusing on what is important when practicing will help the most. So focus on the entry and the position of the spin separately and generally it will come together as you will have very good muscle memory.

Also, I'm a teenager who started skating with an awful coach and let me tell you, I spin fast but there's so many things wrong with the spins that many people don't see. That's often the case with younger children too whether their coach is good or bad because kids just want to do the spin whether it's done wrong or right. The ones with good coaches just fix the issues with the spin faster because it's pointed out to them before the mistakes become muscle memory. By taking it slowly and developing proper technique the way you are doing, you're making sure that once you get the spin, there's a lot less you have to fix and you will ultimately have a good spin faster than if you just tried to muscle through it.

Sorry if this makes no sense it's just a bunch of unrelated thoughts trying to become a seamless paragraph.

Honestly I wouldn't train backspin after learning any jumps (except maybe waltz jump and a single salchow). Backspin should be considered a basic requisite before jumping.
In fact, in many states in the US, many rinks in Canada, Japan and the UK its often taught before difficult turns, and I think that's the way it should be. Instilling basic backspin technique (doesn't have to be super fast, just correct) is very important for skaters- and without it there are huge jumping technical barriers.

It's possible to learn doubles without it, but totally not recommended and then they will be a ceiling before learning backspin again. Shortcuts lead to long delays.
Also consider that with doubles its possible to learn to do them by brute force. It won't necessarily produce good efficient technique.

Is it physically required to learn before single loop? no. Would I ever teach a student a single loop before a backspin? No.

I wouldn't even teach a front sit or camel before they have learnt a backspin. one you have the basic spin on both feet, positions are building on this if you have the strength and flexibility. They will come with practice.

Without the basic spin technique on both feet being reasonable, then I can't see much reason to progress to more advanced things. (Of course every student is different so there are individual circumstances varying).

 

[gliese]

Honestly I wouldn't train backspin after learning any jumps (except maybe waltz jump and a single salchow). Backspin should be considered a basic requisite before jumping.
In fact, in many states in the US, many rinks in Canada, Japan and the UK its often taught before difficult turns, and I think that's the way it should be. Instilling basic backspin technique (doesn't have to be super fast, just correct) is very important for skaters- and without it there are huge jumping technical barriers.

It's possible to learn doubles without it, but totally not recommended and then they will be a ceiling before learning backspin again. Shortcuts lead to long delays.
Also consider that with doubles its possible to learn to do them by brute force. It won't necessarily produce good efficient technique.

Is it physically required to learn before single loop? no. Would I ever teach a student a single loop before a backspin? No.

I wouldn't even teach a front sit or camel before they have learnt a backspin. one you have the basic spin on both feet, positions are building on this if you have the strength and flexibility. They will come with practice.

Without the basic spin technique on both feet being reasonable, then I can't see much reason to progress to more advanced things. (Of course every student is different so there are individual circumstances varying).

Are you trying to contradict what I'm saying or are you adding? I'm unsure but it seems we agree on everything.

Edit: Also I live in Massachusetts and with the better caoches in the state, teaching backspin when a skater is learning toe-loop and loop (they tend to be taught at the same time) is common, but I started skating at a smaller rink where most coaches didn't teach the backspin until their students started an axel. I've had my axel for 4 years and only just figured out proper backspin technique (we're talking the nitty gritty details) literally this morning and I was like WOOOOOOWWWWW this is so much easier when I do it like this. If only I had a better coach when I started :/. I might have had a shot at doing well in really big competitions. Instead I had a coach that couldn't even teach a backspin properly and and completely ignored my mental game. Ugh.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Are you trying to contradict what I'm saying or are you adding? I'm unsure but it seems we agree on everything.

Edit: Also I live in Massachusetts and with the better caoches in the state, teaching backspin when a skater is learning toe-loop and loop (they tend to be taught at the same time) is common, but I started skating at a smaller rink where most coaches didn't teach the backspin until their students started an axel. I've had my axel for 4 years and only just figured out proper backspin technique (we're talking the nitty gritty details) literally this morning and I was like WOOOOOOWWWWW this is so much easier when I do it like this. If only I had a better coach when I started :/. I might have had a shot at doing well in really big competitions. Instead I had a coach that couldn't even teach a backspin properly and and completely ignored my mental game. Ugh.

Agreed and added more detail.
Imo toeloop is often one of the last jumps that should be taught (due to the technique been so difficult to understand and the high tendencies to toe-waltz), however due to curriculum Its usually taught just after salchow.

A backspin is like an investment, as is fine technical detail with every element. It takes a lot of time at the start, but in long run pays off.