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Go to the thoughts and highlights thread.
Golden Spin: Pairs - Thoughts and Highlights
- Thread starter gsk8
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Go to the thoughts and highlights thread.
A coach or the federation rep do not have the power to do this (unless they attract the skater's attention and signal them to stop). Just the skater(s) or the referee.
You don't have to be a doctor or EMT to know that it's dangerous to move a person with a possible head or spinal injury. A skater's first instinct when someone is unconscious and/or not moving should be to leave them there, not try to pick them up. We have all seen injured people immobilized on stretchers before, so this should pretty much be common sense. It doesn't need to be drilled into the skaters, I think they should just know.
We don't know what vantage point the ref had during the fall. Yes, it was a horrific fall and she landed directly on her head, but the ref was still much further away from the action than Tim was. You don't want to rely on someone far in the distance blowing a whistle that likely wouldn't even be able to be heard over the skater's music to prevent a skater from trying to pick up his unconscious partner. It was a moment of crisis for Tim, and maybe he didn't realize Ashley was immobile and out cold, but he definitely had a better look at her than a ref could. Safety always come first when someone else's life is in your hands.
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Ashley's fall was scary! Thanks God there was nothing serious in the end. Wish her recover well and nail it on Nationals. Agree that the ISU must work more on skaters' safety - especially in Pairs Skating because it's the most extreme form of our sport. I don't blame referee - he was far from the incident and maybe just wanted to wait the signal from Tim... I don't know how old is mr. Slobodan Delic and how long does he serve internationally. All we have now - is that the ISU must work more on safety as I said before. Because all that issues like Majorov's nose bleeding, some stuff falling on ice during performance and so on - are not normal first and are insufficiently described in the сurrent ruleset. And medical workers on the rink must have power to stop the performance if there is any sign of bad injury....
About other couples. Knierims - well-done but that last Throw in the free skate. For me it seems that judges were too strict when putting negative GOE's for that little touch with free leg. But still if Alexa did that landing and exit clean - they could have been the winners. But still congrats with first place in FS and Silver in total - all deserved.
Deanna & Nate... For me seems that they are constantly underscored in the PCS department. I can't say that they are as weaker in the program components as they marks are lower than those of Knierims or russian couple.
German pairs. I like how Minerva Hase & Nolan Seegert are going through this season. They are getting better and better. And Annika Hocke & Ruben Blommert have a great SP and then messy FS. Hope that they also will find the way to get better. Both couples have bright future.
About other couples. Knierims - well-done but that last Throw in the free skate. For me it seems that judges were too strict when putting negative GOE's for that little touch with free leg. But still if Alexa did that landing and exit clean - they could have been the winners. But still congrats with first place in FS and Silver in total - all deserved.
Deanna & Nate... For me seems that they are constantly underscored in the PCS department. I can't say that they are as weaker in the program components as they marks are lower than those of Knierims or russian couple.
German pairs. I like how Minerva Hase & Nolan Seegert are going through this season. They are getting better and better. And Annika Hocke & Ruben Blommert have a great SP and then messy FS. Hope that they also will find the way to get better. Both couples have bright future.
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No! The only one who needs to be brought to account here is the referee. Neither the coach nor the USFS have any power to stop a program.
Or from Joshua?
Oh, I sometimes hold my breath for Brooklee because I am readying myself for pure beauty.
Do you have any idea what the rules are or are you just shouting nonsense? Once again: the coach and the USFS could not intervene! It is the referee's job and only the referee's job to stop the program!
Good thoughts. Regarding Deanna and Nate, she has some nice qualities, but they are slower, they have lower and smaller elements. They don't do transitions into their throws. He has short legs and doesn't get a lot of extension. Things like that plus the shakiness in their skates is likely why the PCS are routinely where they are.
I was wondering if there would be a thread on the fall but didn't see one. Then saw this. I think this thread should be renamed and another thread should be made to talk about the rest of the pairs skates.
That fall was horrible. I can't say I'm shocked though that no one stopped them from continuing. My limited experience suggests that most rinks and most skaters/coaches doesn't take safety seriously. I hope she recovers well.
That fall was horrible. I can't say I'm shocked though that no one stopped them from continuing. My limited experience suggests that most rinks and most skaters/coaches doesn't take safety seriously. I hope she recovers well.
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I have to say that with it being 2018 and even freaking FOOTBALL understands potential head and neck injuries are nothing to mess around with, that figure skating seems so lackadaisical about it. If a football player (American football) is hit in the head or neck they are immediately taken out of the game, even if they are able to continue the play, and they are given tests that they must pass before they can play again. Some are able to continue in the game others are out for weeks due to concussion protocol. There is NO REASON the ref in this case should have allowed them to continue, she was clearly OUT before Timothy woke her.
Timothy in the moment did every thing wrong, from allowing her to get up, to allowing her to continue. When the ref and the partner did not call it quits their coach most definitely should have. A LOT OF PEOPLE failed Ashley. It's frustrating.
Timothy in the moment did every thing wrong, from allowing her to get up, to allowing her to continue. When the ref and the partner did not call it quits their coach most definitely should have. A LOT OF PEOPLE failed Ashley. It's frustrating.
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I really wish people would stop doing this. IT'S NOT TIM'S FAULT. HE PANICKED. HE FREAKED OUT. OF COURSE HE DID. He wasn't in any state to be making decisions and the decision should have been taken away from him by the ONE PERSON WHO'S JOB IT WAS TO DO SO..
And again. What were the coaches supposed to do? THEY DON'T HAVE THE POWER TO STOP THE PROGRAM. That's the REFEREE'S job.
It's almost like people are looking for anyone BUT the referee to blame here and it's super infuriating.
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I could not agree more with @karne.
I am very sorry to say it this way, but the narrative of “a lot” of people failed Ashley is pure and simple hogwash. :dev2: It’s deflecting and it’s not holding anyone accountable. ETA: and I want the *right* person held accountable.
Her coaches, who are her parents for criminy’s sake, did *not* fail Ashley. Her partner, in shock and upset, sure as heck did not fail her.
The referee failed her. Period. Full stop. Complete sentence.
So if we want anything to change, let’s hold the right person accountable. The referee, and the ISU that trained him or supervises him.
I am very sorry to say it this way, but the narrative of “a lot” of people failed Ashley is pure and simple hogwash. :dev2: It’s deflecting and it’s not holding anyone accountable. ETA: and I want the *right* person held accountable.
Her coaches, who are her parents for criminy’s sake, did *not* fail Ashley. Her partner, in shock and upset, sure as heck did not fail her.
The referee failed her. Period. Full stop. Complete sentence.
So if we want anything to change, let’s hold the right person accountable. The referee, and the ISU that trained him or supervises him.
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As I said, when the ref didn't stop the program someone else should have stepped in. There is no rule that one must finish a program injured UNLESS the ref calls a halt. If the Ref couldn't identify the issue there were several other people completely capable of doing so.
It concerns me that the coaches (parents or otherwise) did not step in. It's not like there's going to be a security breach if they call a halt to anything. We've seen skaters bow out after an on ice injury before even before or without a ref stopping anything.
I am not saying the ref is not responsible, but considering everyone watching could tell something was wrong and are rightfully calling for the ref's head... I'm not about to say there were not others who could and should have said "no".
I think it's completely valid to distinguish between someone's job responsibilities and a broader moral responsibility. Your point that there were several human beings who stood by and watched something dangerous happen is important. Everyone needs to be better trained on the danger of head injuries.
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But what were they supposed to do? Everyone keeps saying this but they don't say HOW. The coaches can't stop the music. They can't open the gate. They can't approach the judges/referee. They can shout and scream but if the referee doesn't blow the whistle the program keeps going and if Ashley and Tim don't hear them then what?
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I completely agree that the referee is the only person who should be held accountable for failing to stop the program. But I'd also like to see another couple of things introduced. Firstly, for situations like this and that skater who dislocated his shoulder last year and couldn't stand up in the aftermath, I'd like the ISU to establish a clear and visible signal that a skater can give to the referee to tell them to stop the music, without having to physically get up and approach them, eg slap the ice three times with the palm of the hand. Second, given the types of injuries one tends to see in pairs, with so much risk to the head, neck and back, I'd like it to be compulsory for all pairs skaters to have some mandatory basic first aid training - enough to know how to do first responses for a suspected neck or spinal injury, so that nobody is at risk of making mistakes that could, e.g., destabilise a potentially fractured neck and make any injury to the skull, vertebrae or spinal cord worse in a moment of panic.
If a pairs skater (or ice dancer) is injured on the ice their partner is, if uninjured or less injured, literally the first person on the scene. They need to know what to do, for their partner's sake and for their own.
If a pairs skater (or ice dancer) is injured on the ice their partner is, if uninjured or less injured, literally the first person on the scene. They need to know what to do, for their partner's sake and for their own.
I agree it's referee's fault,but knowing this and even his further suspension and punishment would not have made up for possible Ashley's disability to walk and move. It's extreme situation,where people should have screw the rules what they can or cannot do,and jump over the boards and run to her and yell at referee and Tim not to move Ashley. As scary the hit was it was as much scary when Tim moved her neck trying to get her up.
Had Ashley been not that lucky, and if she had serious health consequences,the referee would be damned by everyone,but also Tim and everyone in her team will blame themselves till the rest of their lives that they just watched there and didn't do anything to stop the tragedy.
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Maybe it could be good and usefull for dancers and pair skaters to have something like EFR (Emergency First Response) training... Maybe even mandatory...
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It looked like he was crying at the end of the program and I was thinking "why didn't you stop her?" (I know, not his job, referee's job, etc). Maybe he was kind of in shock? And yes, I believe (with my limited knowledge of first aid and my brother being a doctor) that you're not supposed to move a person after that type of fall until their neck is stabilized because of possibility of spinal cord injury, and that First Aid training could be very very useful. Then he would know she's not supposed to move or be moved after that type fall (if that is indeed the case).
I agree completely.
That said, football is not analogous to figure skating. For starters, football and many other sports have time-outs as part of the sport. So calling a time-out is not only common (thus ref is used to it) but it's also not as disruptive. But also, I am a fan of women's basketball and I have to say that though they seem to take injuries more seriously than figure skating, they still don't take them as seriously as pro football. And if you look at college football, well they don't take injury seriously at all. It's like there's a correlation between how popular a sport is and how seriously they take injury/risk of injury. Basically, the more money and fans, the more seriously they take injuries.
And I don't think her partner deserves a ton of blame because he just reacted to the situation and was in a high stress moment in a culture that doesn't value safety and obviously no one was telling him to do differently. BUT, he did do everything wrong. That's absolutely NOT how to respond in that situation. It's just not. It should be a lesson to others as to 'what not to do.'
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I concur that the program should have been stopped. She was out and should not have been allowed to continue. I don't blame Timothy I'm sure he was stunned and confused, too. I also think it looks like he tried to stop after they stood up. Watching the video he skates over to her and reaches for her face. Looks like he's trying to tell her they should stop. She pushes away from him and starts skating. Seems like he's unsure and so just follows her.