Golden Spin: Pairs - Thoughts and Highlights

[withwings]

A referee's name- and photo as well as- has to be made public. The same regarding his explanation why he was not fulfilling his basic duties. Whatever his explanation might be, nothing excuses him, nothing. It is UNFORGIVABLE. However, he HAS TO explain his inaction and publicly. Unfortunately, I am only a casual fan of this sport, otherwise I never ever would have been silent. Those who are- coaches, skaters, officials, it is time for them to stand up and to speak, to ask for an official explanations. If no- next time there will be more victims of similar accidents.

This is unforgivable to referee, unforgivable.

Also, I am taken aback from the comments about Tim here on this thread. Did these commentators helped at least once in their whole lifetime to someone in the similar situation?? Certainly, no otherwise they would have had an elementary knowledge about shock nd etc. Tim did the very best he could. He was in shock much more than Ashley. Unfortunately, it is how human psychology works. J

Judging from Ashley's twitter, she is ok and back home. It is one of those little miracles which happens in our lives. All the best wishes to Ashley and Tim. It may take a while to recover psychologically, especially for Tim.

 

[Colonel Green]

A referee's name- and photo as well as- has to be made public.

His name is public, as with all officials' names.

 

[withwings]

His name is public, as with all officials' names.

Thank you.
Yes, I read somewhere; referee's last name sounded like a Slavic last name.

 

[gold12345]

Also, I am taken aback from the comments about Tim here on this thread. Did these commentators helped at least once in their whole lifetime to someone in the similar situation?? Certainly, no otherwise they would have had an elementary knowledge about shock nd etc. Tim did the very best he could. He was in shock much more than Ashley. Unfortunately, it is how human psychology works.

I'm sure some people here have been in shocking emergency scenarios where they had to made quick, sound judgements. A pair skater, especially, has to have quick reaction times in dangerous situations. Most people know that if a person is injured on the ground, you don't move them-- it's not something you have to think about. Skaters are conditioned to finish the program no matter what, and that sometimes compromises basic athlete safety.

A referee off in the distance couldn't have done anything in that immediate moment except blow a whistle that may or may not have been heard over the music. And if Tim was in shock, that would lessen the chance of him hearing or responding to a whistle even more. Tim was the first and only person who could respond to Ashley right away, and he needed to not lift up her neck. I don't see anyone here calling him a bad person, and everyone makes mistakes. This just happened to be a potentially very serious one. I know people expected the ref to do something, but the ref couldn't swoop in and instruct Tim how to act in those first couple of seconds. He needed to know for himself.

 

[withwings]

Cains have released a video with Ashley and Tim arriving in US airport. She looks fine- talking, smiling. As I said previously- it is one of these wonderful miracles life is giving us, I mean, that she is fine. Tim looked worse than her on the video.

 

[CoyoteChris]

Indeed, it is within Rule 550 (Interruptions, Music Deficiencies and Incomplete Programs). Point 5:

If, in the opinion of the Referee, medical attention is required, he must stop the performance by an acoustic signal and follow the Medical Protocol (Communication 2049 or any update thereof). The Referee, after consulting with the respective Team Physician, or, if not present, the medical doctor provided by the Organizer, he will decide if the Competitor is allowed back to compete. If the Referee does not allow the skater to resume within 3 minutes since he stopped skating his program the competitor will be considered withdrawn. If the Referee allows the Competitor/s to continue skating his program, Rule 515, paragraph 4. b) will apply. When the problem is solved, the Competitor shall continue from the point of interruption or, if the interruption occurred at the entrance to or during an element, at the point immediately following this element which shall be called by the Technical Panel 6

It was added by ISU Congress this summer. So it wasn't present when Majorov had the noseblood at Rostelecom

Thanks for this. While I think the 3 minutes could be a bit longer, I basically agree with the rule, and I would hope the team doc and the event doc can talk and share thoughts. It takes awhile for the docs to even get to the patient or visa versa. Accept in Spokane where the doc wears skates. As grusome as it sounds, the health of the skater is paramount, and slowmo vid of the incident should be played for the ref and the med team ASAP, even if it means playing the vid on the jumbotrom as the skater is being led to the team. In this case, if that were done, there is no way they would have let the skater stay on the ice....

 

[CoyoteChris]

Cains have released a video with Ashley and Tim arriving in US airport. She looks fine- talking, smiling. As I said previously- it is one of these wonderful miracles life is giving us, I mean, that she is fine. Tim looked worse than her on the video.

That is very nice and I know that in the Jessica Dube case, her partner Bryce felt terrible. But I will be happier when the docs say the MRIs are fine and they feel there are no lasting effects. I am sure Tim, being a great person, does feel terrible...and it wont help much that people point out that Ashely wacked him in the head and it would have been hard for anyone to control the dismount after that...I hope he heals as well. Hey, Paul Binnebose still skates.....:agree:

 

[skylark]

.and it wont help much that people point out that Ashely wacked him in the head and it would have been hard for anyone to control the dismount after that...

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure that's quite accurate. I just watched the video in slow motion, and also their Skate America free skate video in slow motion. In the Golden Spin video, it's not clear whether or not Ashley's leg hit Tim's head; it might be that he bent his head and moved it out of the way. Has anyone who was actually there and observed it said for sure?

What IS clear from a comparison of the two videos is that the split-second timing required by that dismount was off. Ashley's legs usually go on either side of Tim's head, but at Golden Spin, they didn't. Pairs know better than anyone that a mistake in a move like that is about timing and technique, not blame.

I will say that I've always been uneasy with lifts where the woman is upside down during the dismount. Virtually all the pairs do one that way. Why? Because it gets more points. And like everything in IJS, if one pair is doing a thing and getting extra points for it, virtually everyone follows. It's like all the women ending a layback spin with a Biellman.

Just one more reason to wish for the good old days in pairs skating, in the G&G era. But even Sergei dropped Katia on her head once. She had a concussion and was hospitalized for days. Pairs skating has always been dangerous.

 

[Shanshani]

The referee's name is Slobodan Delic, from Serbia. I hope he gets more training before he's allowed to referee again.

 

[DSQ]

I don’t blame Tim at all for his reaction, he was clearly in shock, but it was the worst possible reaction to have. He is a senior Pairs skater he should be trained in what to do in this situation.

As someone said before everyone, especially him, should see this as a what not to do example.

I’m glad she’s okay.

 

[Icey]

Has the referee or ISU or USFSA made a public statement about what happened?

 

[CoyoteChris]

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure that's quite accurate. I just watched the video in slow motion, and also their Skate America free skate video in slow motion. In the Golden Spin video, it's not clear whether or not Ashley's leg hit Tim's head; it might be that he bent his head and moved it out of the way. Has anyone who was actually there and observed it said for sure?

What IS clear from a comparison of the two videos is that the split-second timing required by that dismount was off. Ashley's legs usually go on either side of Tim's head, but at Golden Spin, they didn't. Pairs know better than anyone that a mistake in a move like that is about timing and technique, not blame.

I will say that I've always been uneasy with lifts where the woman is upside down during the dismount. Virtually all the pairs do one that way. Why? Because it gets more points. And like everything in IJS, if one pair is doing a thing and getting extra points for it, virtually everyone follows. It's like all the women ending a layback spin with a Biellman.

Just one more reason to wish for the good old days in pairs skating, in the G&G era. But even Sergei dropped Katia on her head once. She had a concussion and was hospitalized for days. Pairs skating has always been dangerous.

Sorry, my bad, I did not say that right. If you look at 3:23 (and about a half second) minutes, you will see Tim dodging Ashley's leg so it does not hit him. No blame implyed for either but I suspect that in dodging the leg, it threw Tim off.

 

[Casual]

You don't have to be a doctor or EMT to know that it's dangerous to move a person with a possible head or spinal injury. A skater's first instinct when someone is unconscious and/or not moving should be to leave them there, not try to pick them up. We have all seen injured people immobilized on stretchers before, so this should pretty much be common sense. It doesn't need to be drilled into the skaters, I think they should just know.

We don't know what vantage point the ref had during the fall. Yes, it was a horrific fall and she landed directly on her head, but the ref was still much further away from the action than Tim was. You don't want to rely on someone far in the distance blowing a whistle that likely wouldn't even be able to be heard over the skater's music to prevent a skater from trying to pick up his unconscious partner. It was a moment of crisis for Tim, and maybe he didn't realize Ashley was immobile and out cold, but he definitely had a better look at her than a ref could. Safety always come first when someone else's life is in your hands.

Tim is not at fault here, the referee is. Because Tim was just as much in shock as Ashley.

A person in shock after an accident cannot be counted on to make rational decisions. Think about a car accident - even if a driver were physically hurt less than their passenger, they'd still feel dazed and in shock, exacerbated by feelings of guilt and fear, "OMG did I just kill her, is she alright?"

In an ideal world, where humans are error-free robots, Tim should have known better than try to move her - just as Ashley should have known better than get up and continue. But that's not realistic, because they were both in shock.

The referee is definitely at fault, and so is the coach and others who should have interfered when the referee failed to do his job.

 

[Casual]

Cains have released a video with Ashley and Tim arriving in US airport. She looks fine- talking, smiling. As I said previously- it is one of these wonderful miracles life is giving us, I mean, that she is fine. Tim looked worse than her on the video.

We don't know what will be the long-term damage to her brain. Just because she looks fine doesn't mean she escaped unscathed. Hopefully, her physicians will take extra care to heal and protect her brain after this fall.

Daniel Amen (a well-renowned brain physician) wrote a lot of books about the long-term consequences of brain injuries in athletes, and how to heal and make brain healthy.

 

[Metis]

We don't know what will be the long-term damage to her brain. Just because she looks fine doesn't mean she escaped unscathed. Hopefully, her physicians will take extra care to heal and protect her brain after this fall.

Damien Amen (a well-renowned brain physician) wrote a lot of books about the long-term consequences of brain injuries in athletes, and how to heal and make brain healthy.

As far as we know, she’s doing okay, based on her own statements. I agree that there’s the potential for long-term consequences, but at a certain point, we have to acknowledge that we don’t know, she was obviously cleared to fly (I seriously doubt she would have flown home if there was any risk), etc.

Regarding Tim: there’s a very sympathetic case for him, and I’m sure in that moment, he was acting on adrenaline, fear, shock, etc., and feels terrible. I am not here to bash him. My issue is that his reaction was the default human reaction rather than something that was trained — if something like this happened in practice (and I’m sure accidents have), he’s the first responder and needs to manage the situation, from clearly alerting the coach to helping insulate his partner on the ice to being the one who stays calm in a moment of crisis. It’s not an academic point: he’s the one who’s going to need to explain to first responders exactly what happened, anything he noticed in terms of symptoms (because if Ashley was unconscious, she may not be able to self-report that), even giving an estimate of his speed of travel on the ice.

Do I begrudge him for acting like a scared, fallible human in that moment? No. Do I think it’s completely crazy that pairs teams don’t have a protocol for what to do in the event of the worst and that they don’t drill it? Yes. Basic first-aid would be immensely useful in case of a cut or a fall. And knowing what to do also lessens your feeling of powerlessness in the moment, as if you’ve trained for the worst, you won’t be waiting for the ref but going into a sort of autopilot of — don’t move her, signal to coach, make sure she’s kept warm while we wait for EMS, he ready to tell first responders the sequence of events into the incident.... Skaters should be trained not to wait for the ref but to respond to a given situation with whatever basic steps are appropriate while waiting for EMS and by immediately alerting their coach. If the ref blows the whistle — great, they’re maybe doing their job. If they don’t — maybe there’s a plausible reason explanation in some incidents, such as an inability to see a cut at the moment the wound is inflicted due to the couple’s position, but even if they’re negligent — so what? They didn’t blow the whistle, but if someone is severely bleeding or unresponsive, especially to the point of interrupting the programme, it’s not like a medal is realistic, and your coach can scream at the ref to make the call AFTER you clearly signal to them that we have an actual emergency, the performance is cancelled, everybody follow the crisis script.

No one likes thinking about the worst case scenario, but Timothy isn’t a child. He’s a pairs skater with plenty of experience and has undoubtedly been in, at the very least, a similar situation in practise. I understand why he reacted the way he did, but I’m appalled that no one thought to make sure this wasn’t what happened — Ashley and Tim aren’t kids, and they know better than anyone just how gruesome a fall can be in pairs. If you can emotionally support each other as a pairs team, you should be trained to physically support your partner in moments of real danger and confusion, because it’s very likely one of you will need to administer basic first aid. It’s just irresponsible and frankly baffling to me how we can expect partners not to blame each other for errors in a skate and have each other’s back during the psychological tumult of a competition, but when a potentially life or death situation arises, we don’t think of the members of a pair as responsible for having trained for this and to protect, as best as they’re able, their partner when they’re at their absolute most vulnerable.

 

[karne]

Sorry, my bad, I did not say that right. If you look at 3:23 (and about a half second) minutes, you will see Tim dodging Ashley's leg so it does not hit him. No blame implyed for either but I suspect that in dodging the leg, it threw Tim off.

I disagree. All of their lifts in that program looked shaky and unstable. I think the dismount was just a stretch too far for them on a day where they were already having trouble with the lifts.

 

[Harriet]

A person in shock after an accident cannot be counted on to make rational decisions.

One of the main points of first-aid training is that it cuts through shock and helps people remember the correct thing to do, even in extremely stressful situations. And I know from experience that it works. In this sort of situation the few extra seconds of clear thinking - or just delay in action while the partner stops to make sure they remember what to do/not do - could save a spine one day, or even a life. I really do think that all pairs skaters and ice dancers should have some training, for their own safety and their partners'.

 

[withwings]

We don't know what will be the long-term damage to her brain. Just because she looks fine doesn't mean she escaped unscathed. Hopefully, her physicians will take extra care to heal and protect her brain after this fall.


Damien Amen (a well-renowned brain physician) wrote a lot of books about the long-term consequences of brain injuries in athletes, and how to heal and make brain healthy.

I guess, you meant Dr. Daniel ( Gregory) Amen? He is not a brain physician ; he is psychiatrist, practices as a psychiatrist. Anyway, brain disorders are his main focus.

And, yes, of course, consequences always shows up latter; however, there was no immediate concerns and it IS one of those small miracles, which happens not so frequently in similar cases. Ashley was able to take a flight and it IS a miracle indeed, or, if you prefer better vocabulary ( my English vocabulary is quite limited), you can suggest me a better word choice It is not allowed to have more vibrations (=to fly) for at least few days, if there is a serious head trauma.

Anyway, I am talking too much. All this is unimportant now. What is important is that we all wish Ashely and Tim to be well and healthy again. Good thoughts means a lot.

 

[Casual]

I guess, you meant Dr. Daniel ( Gregory) Amen? He is not a brain physician ; he is psychiatrist, practices as a psychiatrist. Anyway, brain disorders are his main focus.

And, yes, of course, consequences always shows up latter; however, there was no immediate concerns and it IS one of those small miracles, which happens not so frequently in similar cases. Ashley was able to take a flight and it IS a miracle indeed, or, if you prefer better vocabulary ( my English vocabulary is quite limited), you can suggest me a better word choice It is not allowed to have more vibrations (=to fly) for at least few days, if there is a serious head trauma.

Anyway, I am talking too much. All this is unimportant now. What is important is that we all wish Ashely and Tim to be well and healthy again. Good thoughts means a lot.

Darn it, yes! Thank you for catching it. Daniel Amen. He's a physician (MD, psychiatrist), and neuroscientist.

Any hard fall like that can have physical consequences for the brain later in life. So while Ashley is indeed incredibly lucky (it could have been devastating), her medical team should take really good care of her.

Also, I agree with everyone who wrote that basic first-response training is needed for skaters and couches - along with safer protocols for ISU competitions and referees.