How Should Junior Grand Prix Finalists be Selected?

[dorispulaski]

The announcement of the 2021-22 JGP was made. Later, a second JGP France was scheduled to replace JGP Canada. But it was not until
August 5th that we learned for sure that there indeed would be a Junior Grand Prix this season! (What joy!)

But "Communication No. 2418: Decisions of the Council – ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating season 2021/22" also gave us the strange rules that were made to accommodate the differing COVID-19 protocols of the federations/countries hosting events.

Not only would there be no North American event at all, and France would be advantaged by having two home events. No Russian skaters would attend those French events. Nor would Japanese skaters compete there.

Russian skaters are somewhat compensated as 5 Russian men, women, and dance teams are competing at JGP Russia (rather than the usual 3 for a home event), so they will be able to get qualifying scores for Junior Worlds, should it be held.

Since Pairs competitions are not scheduled for the French events, the Russian pairs teams are not affected by these rulings. For whatever reasons, only 6 pairs teams are scheduled to compete at JGP Russia. (There are four Russian teams, one Uzbek team, and one Australian team )

At this time, it is not sure there will be a Junior Grand Prix Final in Japan, as scheduled. It is also unsure what methods the ISU will use to qualify skaters to that event.

Neither the usual method of giving points for placings at events not of ranking skaters by scores seems very fair, under these conditions.

What do you think should be done?

Should the JGPF be held?

And how should skaters be ranked to be assigned to it?

I would propose opening the field to 8 competitors per event for dance, women, and men, rather than the usual six, whatever ranking scheme is used.

 

[yume]

I like the idea of 8 competitors instead of 6.

Neither system is ideal. Even out of the covid-19 context, i think that the usual system is somehow unfair because someone can qualify for the without actually displaying a better skating or scoring higher than someone who doesn't make it. The depth of the fields is uneven. If you have the luck to compete against an easier field you can qualify with scores in 190s because you podiumed while someone who didn't end on podium because of tougher competition but scored 200-210 will stay at home (Samodurova vs Mihara in 2018-2019 for example). With what happened in France, and the fact that Japanese fed doesn't want to send its skaters in the first 3-4 events, make this system worse.

A system based on scores isn't also ideal. Scoring can be way more generous or more conservative from an event to another. But then it also happens in the same event. I saw some competitions where 3/4 of the field is judged harshly and the rest is given way too high scores.

I would like a mix of the two. Like, two scales of points. One for placements and another for scores. The addition of the two gives the total points of the skater and determine if he's in or not.

The scale of points for placements is this:
1st place=15 points; 2nd place=13 points; 3rd place=11 points; 4th place= 9 points; 5th place= 7 points; 6th place=5 points; 7th place=4 points ; 8th place = 3 points

For the scores it can be the same. But the score have to be cumulative to judge the overall performance (both events should count). Just taking the best score would be too easy.
1st highest score=15 points; 2nd =13 points; 3rd =11 points; 4th = 9 points; 5th = 7 points; 6th =5 points; 7th =4 point; 8th = 3 points

Then, the maximum points would be 45. A skater who finished 1st in one event and 4th in another, have the 5th highest cumulative score (something that has high chance to happen imo) will have 30 points. May be enough to qualify.

 

[LiamForeman]

It will be pretty controversial, no matter what, I'm sure. I know this is impossible, but maybe have a selection out of the top ten scorers plus gold jpg medalists? Or something like that. Where a team of judges can look at the top scorers and gold medalists and choose the top 6 from that. There would be a subjective component of course, so not every gold medalist might make the JGPF. But sometimes it is clear when a gold medalist absolutely lucks out in an event (withdrawals, no competition) and shouldn't be in the overall mix for the final. That's how I would do it.

 

[Paulipau]

It will be pretty controversial, no matter what, I'm sure. I know this is impossible, but maybe have a selection out of the top ten scorers plus gold jpg medalists? Or something like that. Where a team of judges can look at the top scorers and gold medalists and choose the top 6 from that. There would be a subjective component of course, so not every gold medalist might make the JGPF. But sometimes it is clear when a gold medalist absolutely lucks out in an event (withdrawals, no competition) and shouldn't be in the overall mix for the final. That's how I would do it.

No, there have to be some clear rules of how the skaters get selected. We cannot have judges decide something like that...

I think that the top 6 scores get selected is the best idea so far.

Medals should not matter at all.

 

[Ziotic]

No, there have to be some clear rules of how the skaters get selected. We cannot have judges decide something like that...

I think that the top 6 scores get selected is the best idea so far.

Medals should not matter at all.

But scores are equally subjective and vary greatly event to event.

 

[yume]

No, there have to be some clear rules of how the skaters get selected. We cannot have judges decide something like that...

I think that the top 6 scores get selected is the best idea so far.

Medals should not matter at all.

Given the bloodbaths that will be the 3rd and 4th JGPs i tend to agree.
But then you can be sure that scores will be very generous at home events.

 

[Paulipau]

But scores are equally subjective and vary greatly event to event.

They are subjective and vary from event to event I agree. But they are no way equally subjective than a set of judges...

It is not a perfect solution, but it is the best we can have I think.

Maybe it would be a little more fair to sum up scores from all stages attended by a skater and then divide by 2?

 

[katymay]

Top scores, period. If you are in two JGP-the average of your two scores. If you are in 1 JGP, that score alone. If there are skaters who are very close, a committee to re-evaluate the programs for judging bias. I think you will probably have a top three who will be obvious, and then a closer competition for 4th-10th.

 

[Seven Sisters]

My first thought on seeing the headline for this new thread is that it will inspire extremely strong opinions from some quarters and will probably need to be closed within days

I hope I’m wrong. Let’s stay civil!

 

[dorispulaski]

One reason that I wanted the field extended to 8 was of course that I want to watch more skating! The JGPF used to have 8 skaters per event not so long ago. 8 skaters does not require any more ice remakes and is not a huge burden for the judges.

The main reason is that "points" allows home ice advantage to be extended to as many as five skaters per event for Japan and Russia, and two events for France, while teams with no event, like Canada, China, Italy, and the USA do not get that chance at all.

"Placings" unfairly advantages teams who had less competition at two JGP France events because some countries had vaccines unapproved by the European Union, and even more were subject to onerous restrictions on both quarantine and travel restrictions.

Allowing more competitors seems the fairest accommodation to me.

 

[lariko]

Honestly, I don’t think they can do it in any way other than by scores. So long as the JGP goes ahead, and the junior division competes in these trying times, bending the rules is okay. Under the old set of rules, it wasn’t perfect either, because it’s still highly dependant on the field and the chance. In the end, the better they skate, the higher is their chance to make the final, there will always be someone deserving omitted, and the public will always be unhappy over something under any system.

 

[Aimee-01]

Even though most other European countries will have the home advantage, since there is no Russian or Japanese skaters, it gives Canada, and America much more of a chance in the first couple events

The main reason is that "points" allows home ice advantage to be extended to as many as five skaters per event for Japan and Russia, and two events for France, while teams with no event, like Canada, China, Italy, and the USA do not get that chance at all.

 

[Myr]

I would like a mix of the two. Like, two scales of points. One for placements and another for scores. The addition of the two gives the total points of the skater and determine if he's in or not.

I agree! Either just scores or placement would be unjust this time.

For instance, we've just had two competitions at Courchevel where the Russians could not compete in and the Japanese chose not to. On the one hand this led to a weaker field. But going just by points also does not seem fair since aside from other factors (subjective judging ,...) Ted mentioned at least 5 times that the altitude affects the skating and therefore the scores of all who were asigned there.

 

[el henry]

Just scores? Nah. Way too susceptible to home cooking.

Plus, the examples are legion of the same skate getting vastly different scores. One panel with Mr Shin Amano and one panel not? is anyone arguing the score would be identical?

plus disregarding medals is highly unfair to those who have faced competition and won.

the only fair way for me is an expanded field. Six skaters selected the old fashioned way, by medal points. And then three skaters assigned by program scores, to make up for the fact that not all skaters could go to all comps. If the high scorers are so wonderful, (and they may be) they will medal at JGPF.

A solution that I think is fair to all the skaters

 

[Amei]

Not just the JGP but the GP, how about anyone who medals goes to the Final, then only the top 6 from the SP move onto the FS.

I don't like the idea of points because as its been pointed out - home-inflation will happen; it would probably be historical record-breaking scores.

 

[4everchan]

All the gold medals should be sent + those who did not get gold but have the best average scores over two events. Extend the field to give more opportunities. 12 singles. 10 dance. 8 pairs. 2 flights per discipline. The isu should overcome the situation by being more inclusive rather than restrictive. I do not like scores alone because scores go higher and higher as the season settles in. Placements alone are not fair due to some restrictions. At the same time, travel restrictions prevented Canadians from competing last year and the skaters did not get special treatment.

 

[Climb]

At the same time, travel restrictions prevented Canadians from competing last year and the skaters did not get special treatment.

Canadians canceled their Skate Canada. What special treatment are you talking about.

 

[dorispulaski]

Possible special treatment: Russia was allowed to have five competitors at their event when 3 is high for a home event and 2 is high for a non home event. Probably Japan will get the same for their home event.


Canada (and China and the USA) got no such perks.

 

[Climb]

Possible special treatment: Russia was allowed to have five competitors at their event when 3 is high for a home event and 2 is high for a non home event. Probably Japan will get the same for their home event.


Canada (and China and the USA) got no such perks.

Russians were treated as a second-rate, they were effectively removed from the first two JGPs. That is a special treatment indeed.

Koreans got 3 spots for Women at the second JGP in Courchevel. Any country can get that if they have a good reason.

 

[Amei]

Possible special treatment: Russia was allowed to have five competitors at their event when 3 is high for a home event and 2 is high for a non home event. Probably Japan will get the same for their home event.

Russia was unable to go to France due to the French government's restrictions on Russians entering the country. My understanding of the additional skaters at the JGP event in Slovakia and Russia is that they are extra spots added to the event, they aren't removing another country from being able to compete. Perhaps its 'special treatment' - but the alternative is that a skater can't go to the JGP and get valuable international competition experience to prepare for being a senior skater so I don't think the ISU acted inappropriately to allow Russia to send a few extra skaters to 2 events to compensate for the fact they could not send skaters to 2 other events due to restrictions outside of their control

Canada (and China and the USA) got no such perks.

Well at least in ladies Russia has dominated the JGP series for years, given that I think its fair/safe to say that Canada, the US and S. Korea (the 3 countries that medaled in the ladies events in France) were all given much easier roads to medals and possibly to the JGPF than if Russia could have attended the 2 events in France. That sure sounds like a perk to me.