ISU figure skating streams might be switched to pay-per-view platform

[CoyoteChris]

Isn’t much of the music used by skaters in the public domain? I wouldn’t think that all of it is under copyright.

No.

 

[CoyoteChris]

Probably not all of it, which wouldn't be the music causing problems for stored streams with copyright claims being made. But the idea that those music companies should pay figure skaters who have a generally a very small niche market they touch to use copyrighted music with the idea that it would net a positive return for attracting people to their artists that would recoup the music company's cost is where I think people are getting blinded by their own figure skating fandom.

In the real world, we are not talking about Sara Brightman and Celtic Woman striking deals with PBS, broadcasting their music and receiving million in return in royalties and concert revenue and promotion and fame. That's for sure. But the concept of payola is not new, legal or otherwise. Pleanty of DJs took money to broadcast songs to boost the artist's popularity so they could sell more 45 rpm records. The issue of lawyers arguing that NBC et al made money off of one of their client's tunes is ludicruous, but that is what non criminal law is all about. Using the "law" to make money. And bully and intimidate. See the poor figure skater needing a tune to skate to? Wait, they didnt cross the T or dot the I. Wack 'um! Mention THEM in the lawsuit as well as NBC and USFS....follow the money....

 

[CoyoteChris]

Not since they started letting the skaters use music with lyrics.

I am not sure what Lyrics have to do with anything. When Sarah Brightman took Ennio Morricone's beautiful "the Mission" music Gabriel's Oboe and hired an Italian lyrisist and made Nella Fantasia, she had to beg Ennio for the rights.....

 

[surimi]

Isn’t much of the music used by skaters in the public domain? I wouldn’t think that all of it is under copyright.

I think that public domain music would often equal the warhorses that many fans complain about...

 

[skatesofgold]

I am not sure what Lyrics have to do with anything. When Sarah Brightman took Ennio Morricone's beautiful "the Mission" music Gabriel's Oboe and hired an Italian lyrisist and made Nella Fantasia, she had to beg Ennio for the rights.....

Yeah, sorry. Admittedly, I forgot to bring up modern movie score soundtracks. Those wouldn't be in the public demain either, so what we would be stuck with are the warhorses, and even if I like some warhorses (Nutcracker), I love modern music, too, and would prefer if more of it was used.

 

[TallyT]

I think that public domain music would often equal the warhorses that many fans complain about...

Though not even all of the warhorses are public domain (POTO, POTC, Les Mis, Moulin Rouge, the R&J soundtrack ones...) Sure people complain but if youtube started targeting some of these, a lot of the same people's favourite skates would get taken down or muted.

And let's remember, figure skating may have an astonishingly hidebound and stuck in the mud officialdom, but the skaters themselves are young and many of the up and coming probably want modern music or popular film/TV/game scores if and when they can afford/get it. If their videos online are then whacked or muted...

 

[CoyoteChris]

Yeah, sorry. Admittedly, I forgot to bring up modern movie score soundtracks. Those wouldn't be in the public demain either, so what we would be stuck with are the warhorses, and even if I like some warhorses (Nutcracker), I love modern music, too, and would prefer if more of it was used.

I am blown away....if you use a Nutcracker that was recorded in 2020, its "protected".!!!!
Musicians can actually donate their music to the public domain but that seldom happens....
Reading this article shows just how complex this all is.

Public domain music - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TallyT]

I am blown away....if you use a Nutcracker that was recorded in 2020, its "protected".!!!!

Which is fair enough, surely?

 

[labgoat]

anyone know if the current ISU Junior Grand Prix youtube stuff is going to stay for awhile?
I am still catching up on some stuff and hoping to finish my lists

 

[Arin]

Hello, I have a question - is there actually any confirmed information about Junior Grand Prix (or about any figure skating event, for that matter) not being on Youtube anymore? I only seen info about Junior speed skating, short track and synchronized skating going on the new platform, so completely different disciplines? But everyone seems sure it's about figure skating too, so did I miss this news?

JGP events are my favourite so I hope the events will be archived (and downloadable, I come back to them often...)

 

[Princessroja]

And its fine if people vote with their dollars and chose not to watch something for money. Right now, since this is a closed business, we have no idea how much it costs ISU to create the feed it sells to countries willing to pay for it. Charging the little guy out in internet land is just another profit stream for them.....I have a hard time believing that it will bring in much and that it will force people to give up their VPNs and buy Peacock and stay up all hours to watch.......but it is clear that some bean counter feels this is the correct path. We are just not privy to where the beans come from and go at this time.....

Yeah, I'm sure it's relatively costly to produce the stream. I just get frustrated, because obviously they need to make money, but also, if they wall everything off, no one will watch anything and then they REALLY won't make any money.

 

[CoyoteChris]

Yeah, I'm sure it's relatively costly to produce the stream. I just get frustrated, because obviously they need to make money, but also, if they wall everything off, no one will watch anything and then they REALLY won't make any money.

ITA. Youtube needs to move its HQ to a PO box in Switzerland like so many other companies....the Swiss are very accomidating...low corporate taxes, etc. That is why Nestle moved....if WMG wants to sue a Swiss company for music violations, bring it on.....what will happen is exactly what happened when the Wright Brothers tried to sue Europe for making airplanes....squat.

https://www.clevver.io/business-address-switzerland/

The ISU just needed to choose a company who could make us pay for skating in a reasonable manner with a quality player like Youtube. I dont know how "Recast" can do replays without getting wacked by WMG but we shall see.

 

[CoyoteChris]

Which is fair enough, surely?

Yes, I agree. I just dont agree that music should be protected for 50 years after the artist dies....JMTC

 

[Moxiejan]

Yes, I agree. I just dont agree that music should be protected for 50 years after the artist dies....JMTC

The heirs of that artist would disagree.

 

[TallyT]

The heirs of that artist would disagree.

The artist themselves might as well, given that it is their artistic property, they usually want to leave something to their family etc, and other forms of willed property don't suddenly belong to the public when we die. I don't think 50 years is unreasonable myself (ps, and most of the modern music the skaters seem to be going for is by living artists anyway?)

If skaters and the ISU want to use someone else's legal property, they have to be willing to pay what said someone else is willing to sell it for. That's only fair.

 

[CoyoteChris]

The artist themselves might as well, given that it is their artistic property, they usually want to leave something to their family etc, and other forms of willed property don't suddenly belong to the public when we die. I don't think 50 years is unreasonable myself (ps, and most of the modern music the skaters seem to be going for is by living artists anyway?)

If skaters and the ISU want to use someone else's legal property, they have to be willing to pay what said someone else is willing to sell it for. That's only fair.

No one can argue against that. No one can argue that makers of music, whether THEY buy the music and record it with THEIR instruments, or whether they wrote or recorded the music in the first place. The point of contention is, how long is the contract to use the music good for, basically. Now Peacock has on demand, if only for a day or so. While ISU youtube is still subject to getting wacked. You will note of course the oddity that Peacock can broadcast Shoma Live and then NBC rabbit ears can broadcast it "live" days later....
WMG and the other two need to come up with a new music contract for skaters and broadcasters that lasts a season...what did Mai say she did? 10 events? WMG needs to keep pace with current technology. This is not rocket science....

 

[CoyoteChris]

All of this thread reminds me sadly of how unpopular skating is now in the US and how popular it is in Japan.
Spokane was happy to win the 2007 and 2010 nats and set records....lots of TV coverage...
You wanna know what Spokane does now? They built a big world class track and field indoor statium with variable geometry track next to the arena. And they decided early on to leave out the ice. They just landed the Worlds Jr Badmitten championship (500 playerrs) and right now they are hosting the womens NW volley ball qualifier event. That would be 12,000 athletes and 14,000 spectators over two weekends....they each spend about 4 days in Spokane. Thats 26 million dollars...
I am not sure I wanna know where the US is in figure skating in 10 years....All I know is that people now are willing to pay huge sums of money to attend events of games of the ball (and Birdie).
I just hope I can still watch skating

 

[TallyT]

No one can argue against that. No one can argue that makers of music, whether THEY buy the music and record it with THEIR instruments, or whether they wrote or recorded the music in the first place. The point of contention is, how long is the contract to use the music good for, basically. Now Peacock has on demand, if only for a day or so. While ISU youtube is still subject to getting wacked. You will note of course the oddity that Peacock can broadcast Shoma Live and then NBC rabbit ears can broadcast it "live" days later....
WMG and the other two need to come up with a new music contract for skaters and broadcasters that lasts a season...what did Mai say she did? 10 events? WMG needs to keep pace with current technology. This is not rocket science....

Oh I can definitely empathise with what you say (it isn;t only TV and streaming either, when I bought the last Yuzuru DVD, the only program that was not on it was Let's Go Crazy, which undoubtedly was because of a copyright ban and yes, I did something of a rant about it to myself. Even if Prince's estate have eased off in Yuzu by by now, my DVD feels incomplete.) It's why we get covers, but let's be honest, the covers are seldom if ever as good and therefor do seem a bit... shabby.

There should be a solution but to be even more honest, WMG is not exactly starting from the position of strength, since the music the skaters want to use is seldom by artists/estates who need to cut such a deal and so can ask any price they want. Does anyone know what sort of money is offered?

 

[Magill]

Oh I can definitely empathise with what you say (it isn;t only TV and streaming either, when I bought the last Yuzuru DVD, the only program that was not on it was Let's Go Crazy, which undoubtedly was because of a copyright ban and yes, I did something of a rant about it to myself. Even if Prince's estate have eased off in Yuzu by by now, my DVD feels incomplete.) It's why we get covers, but let's be honest, the covers are seldom if ever as good and therefor do seem a bit... shabby.

There should be a solution but to be even more honest, WMG is not exactly starting from the position of strength, since the music the skaters want to use is seldom by artists/estates who need to cut such a deal and so can ask any price they want. Does anyone know what sort of money is offered?

I don't know the actual amounts but I remember Yuzuru sympathizing with young skaters in Japan over the music copyright problem in some interview. He said that when he was still a young skater he would skate his program only 3-4 times with his real music outside of competitions as they were not able to afford paying the copyrights. I understand in Japan you would have to pay copyrights even for playing music aloud at the rink for training? Or maybe he trained at the times when the rink was open to the public as he was a child then? IDK. Anyway, he said that's why he learnt to memorize his music for practice, sing it to himself etc. He sounded like it was really A LOT.

 

[TallyT]

I understand in Japan you would have to pay copyrights even for playing music aloud at the rink for training? Or maybe he trained at the times when the rink was open to the public as he was a child then? IDK.

Ouch! That would really hurt (and explain why public domain music/warhorses will never wholly go out of fashion....)