Lambiel and Cizeron together "On ice perspectives"

[brakes]

You do not "understand" me. You have a perfect right to not like any aspect of skating, but if you simply say it is "the matter of perfect natural aesthetics and proportions" as a statement then others have the right to argue the point, just as dogmatically in fact. I don't have a problem with anyone liking or disliking any aesthetic - I detest skaters wearing tutus, but that's me.

Dogma means "a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true".
Male and female bodies put together in a dancing pair look aesthetically perfect due to natural reasons, not because some authority say so.
You probably used the word "dogmatic" to make myself and my point of view looking obsolete and archaic, thus ridiculing it.

[I liked Alina Zagitova wearing a tutu, because she has naturally beautiful legs btw, not because I'm dogmatic. ]

 

[TallyT]

aesthetically perfect due to the natural reasons...

You keep using the word 'natural' and I think we need to agree that we do not think the same things are natural. I see Lambiel and Cizeron as aesthetically far closer to perfect (because after all, humans being what they are there is no such thing) than 90% of the pairs and ice dance couples in the top rank, let alone skating overall. For totally natural reasons. Let's leave it there.

[I liked Alina Zagitova wearing a tutu, because she has naturally beautiful legs btw, not because I'm dogmatic. ]

I won't even watch her Olympic skates, because to me any skater parroting ballerinas looks affected, even twee; and that, for aesthetic reasons, is unbeautiful. But that is no more for 'natural reasons' than male/male being more unbeautiful. Again, agree to disagree. (Except that Zagitova is beautiful, being female myself I hadn't really thought about her legs but she is one of the most physically beautiful female skaters we have had in recent years.)

 

[brakes]

You keep using the word 'natural' and I think we need to agree that we do not think the same things are natural. I see Lambiel and Cizeron as aesthetically far closer to perfect (because after all, humans being what they are there is no such thing) than 90% of the pairs and ice dance couples in the top rank, let alone skating overall. For totally natural reasons. Let's leave it there.

If you're being honest, then we live in another natural/cultural/aesthetic universes.
It's amazing we are still able to communicate though.

 

[TallyT]

If you're being honest, then we live in another natural/cultural/aesthetic universes.
It's amazing we are still able to communicate though.

We live in another natural/cultural/aesthetic universes. And they are called our own minds. Funny that...

 

[globalsoul]

But you didn't say you didn't enjoy a style, but a gender pairing, so it is confusing.

Hopefully in the future we will have many same gender pairings. Some will be like Hubbell and Donohue, (or Hubbell and Papadakis) some will be like Papadakis and Cizéron (or Cizeron and Lambiel), some will be like others we have not seen. So we can talk about styles.

To say I don't like same gender pairings, to me, is like saying I don't like Russian pairings, or Canadian pairings, or pairings of people with blue eyes. It is far too broad, to me, to make any sense.

I don't understand what is confusing? Same-sex pairings are absolutely a very distinct "style", fundamentally different from traditional male-female pairings. To argue otherwise makes no sense to me - it's like saying that all of a sudden we should have 3 people in a pair and everybody should just agree and cheer?

Nationality, eye color and what-have-you doesn't change the fundamental dynamics of a male-female pairing, the aesthetics and the story and the way only a man and a woman can relate to each other in an artistic sense. Sure, you can have two people of the same sex skate together in a similar fashion but the effect will never be the same on me - I just can't relate. Maybe you can, and good for you, if so! But it would completely ruin the dance (not to mention pairs - yikes!) disciplines if all of a sudden same-sex pairs were allowed in.

 

[globalsoul]

I am slightly intrigued by the fact that when Gabi and Maddie's video got posted, I don't recall anyone having issues with it, but then, two men do the same and it brings negativity.

Just for the record, I dislike female-female and male-male pairings equally, I'm just lurking in the forum occasionally and didn't get to post about that one...

 

[TallyT]

I don't understand what is confusing? Same-sex pairings are absolutely a very distinct "style", fundamentally different from traditional male-female pairings. To argue otherwise makes no sense to me - it's like saying that all of a sudden we should have 3 people in a pair and everybody should just agree and cheer?

Nationality, eye color and what-have-you doesn't change the fundamental dynamics of a male-female pairing, the aesthetics and the story and the way only a man and a woman can relate to each other in an artistic sense. Sure, you can have two people of the same sex skate together in a similar fashion but the effect will never be the same on me - I just can't relate. Maybe you can, and good for you, if so! But it would completely ruin the dance (not to mention pairs - yikes!) disciplines if all of a sudden same-sex pairs were allowed in.

So I take it your disapproval also extends to sibling couples like the Shibutanis and Duchesnays, since they cannot 'relate to each other' in the 'same artistic' way?

"Critics of the unique duo used the fact that they were brother and sister as a 'go-to' argument in their case that ice dancing wasn't ice dancing unless there was a suggestion of romance." https://skateguard1.blogspot.com/2020/05/a-short-history-of-skating-siblings.html

 

[globalsoul]

You keep using the word 'natural' and I think we need to agree that we do not think the same things are natural. I see Lambiel and Cizeron as aesthetically far closer to perfect (because after all, humans being what they are there is no such thing) than 90% of the pairs and ice dance couples in the top rank, let alone skating overall. For totally natural reasons. Let's leave it there.



I won't even watch her Olympic skates, because to me any skater parroting ballerinas looks affected, even twee; and that, for aesthetic reasons, is unbeautiful. But that is no more for 'natural reasons' than male/male being more unbeautiful. Again, agree to disagree. (Except that Zagitova is beautiful, being female myself I hadn't really thought about her legs but she is one of the most physically beautiful female skaters we have had in recent years.)

If we're being real, there is a fundamental reason why male-female pairings instinctively seem more "natural" to the vast majority of people, and that reason has to do with why we as a species have survived and existed for as long as we have... Probably not what people want to hear nowadays but undeniably true all the same... Just sayin'

 

[globalsoul]

So I take it your disapproval also extends to sibling couples like the Shibutanis and Duchesnays, since they cannot 'relate to each other' in the 'same artistic' way?

"Critics of the unique duo used the fact that they were brother and sister as a 'go-to' argument in their case that ice dancing wasn't ice dancing unless there was a suggestion of romance." https://skateguard1.blogspot.com/2020/05/a-short-history-of-skating-siblings.html

No, not at all. Still a man and a woman, and I absolutely ADORED the Duchesnays back in the day (Missing is one of my all-time favorites) and quite enjoyed the Shibutanis as well. It's an act on the ice, we all know that.

 

[TallyT]

If we're being real, there is a fundamental reason why male-female pairings instinctively seem more "natural" to the vast majority of people, and that reason has to do with why we as a species have survived and existed for as long as we have... Probably not what people want to hear nowadays but undeniably true all the same... Just sayin'

Oh for Chrissake... we are not talking about them having sex on the ice! (I do not want to see ANYONE, male or female doing that thank you very much). Why are you assuming that the only possible artistic expression worth expressing has to be erotic? I mentioned dance pairings including Astaire/Kelly and Kelly/O'Connor (and there are plenty of others in film history) which are every bit as artistic and wonderful as male/female duets.

I take it you also find the sibling skating unnatural and therefor unaesthetic? Because if you do not, your argument is disengenuous.

 

[TallyT]

It's an act on the ice, we all know that.

And it only isn't when you personally say so. got it.

 

[globalsoul]

Oh for Chrissake... we are not talking about them having sex on the ice! (I do not want to see ANYONE, make or female doing that thank you very much). Why are you assuming that the only possible artistic expression worth expressing has to be erotic? I mentioned dance pairings including Astaire/Kelly and Kelly/O'Connor (and there are plenty of others in film history) which are every bit as artistic and wonderful as male/female duets.

I take it you also find the sibling skating unnatural and therefor unaesthetic? Because if you do not, your argument is disengenuous.

Huh?????? Erotic???? What????

The vast majority of people can relate to a male-female pairing more than a same-sex pairing. You're taking this too far - no one wants anyone having sex on the ice, good grief!!!

 

[icewhite]

So, only people with different genitals can be good couples on the ice? Or only people with a clear height distinction? Or only people where one wears a dress and the other one long pants? Or only if there is a certain difference in testosterone? What is it?

Honestly, there are two reasons to generally be against same sex couples on the ice: being very traditional or being homophobe.
Everything else is a pretext.

 

[TallyT]

Huh?????? Erotic???? What????

The vast majority of people can relate to a male-female pairing more than a same-sex pairing. You're taking this too far - no one wants anyone having sex on the ice, good grief!!!

You're the one who is talking about 'natural pairings' here... and the vast majority of people have perfectly good same sex friendships or familial relationships so two brothers skating together would be no more unnatural than a brother and sister, after all and your first statement only works if you are talking romantically/sexually.

Look, if you or someone else says 'I prefer them' - that's one thing.That's your or my or anyone else's cultural/traditional/personal mind's eye talking. But trying to insist that they are somehow instrinsically 'naturally' better because... reasons... is just plain icky.

 

[gkelly]

I don't understand what is confusing? Same-sex pairings are absolutely a very distinct "style", fundamentally different from traditional male-female pairings. To argue otherwise makes no sense to me - it's like saying that all of a sudden we should have 3 people in a pair and everybody should just agree and cheer?

Nationality, eye color and what-have-you doesn't change the fundamental dynamics of a male-female pairing, the aesthetics and the story and the way only a man and a woman can relate to each other in an artistic sense. Sure, you can have two people of the same sex skate together in a similar fashion but the effect will never be the same on me - I just can't relate. Maybe you can, and good for you, if so! But it would completely ruin the dance (not to mention pairs - yikes!) disciplines if all of a sudden same-sex pairs were allowed in.

There are many different ways that a man and a woman can relate to each other. Some are romantic or sexual, others not at all. (Just ask all the brother-sister pair and dance teams.)

Similarly, there are many different ways that two men or two women can relate to each other. Some romantic or sexual, others not at all.

If heterosexual love is the only story permitted between two skaters on the ice together, that severely limits the possibilities of the discipline. Including for mixed-gender teams.

 

[Mathman]

Two bodies of the same size and build in a dance do not look appealing on ice at all.

Cizerone (6'1") is quite a bit bigger than Lambiel. So it must be something elas about it that rubs you the wrong way?

 

[globalsoul]

Well, it was fun while it lasted. Finally the mob arrives and the 'homophobe' jeers start. Predictably...

 

[Mathman]

Male and female bodies put together in a dancing pair look aesthetically perfect due to natural reasons, not because some authority says so

Is that your authoritative answer to the question of what does and what does not look aesthetucally pleasing, and what is natural and what is an affront to nature?

 

[Mathman]

Well, it was fun while it lasted. Finally the mob arrives and the 'homophobe' jeers start. Predictably...

No, the homophobic mob were the goons who just mudered a gay dancer in New York City for breaking out into a spontaneous dance while filling up his car at a gas station. Yuk, yuk, right?

 

[noskates]

Had something to ad but it's kind of toxic in here.....