Men's Short Program: 2013 Skate Canada International

[Icey]

see a man doesn't have to have a quad to win; nor does a lady HAVE to have a 3/3.

 

[sky_fly20]

He didn't fall on his butt, why keep complaining about something that didn't even happen?

that was mant as sarcastic remark

 

[SGrand]

that was mant as sarcastic remark

Sorry, I just found it pointless. It bears no relationship to what happened on the ice last night.
You do realize that your statements would have more of an impact if you didn't rant on and on about the same thing, right?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So you really think Chan deserved the same GOE as Hanyu on the 3A? No matter that Hanyu actually had a very difficult entry into that 3A (easily the most difficult one you'll see those days) and good height/distance, good flowing edge coming out and transitions afterwards? And btw, 2 bullet points for GOE =/= +2GOE.

Oh I agree Hanyu was underscored on his 3A. But Chan was suitably scored on his. Chan had more speed coming out of his axel and flow and difficult transition turns on the landing exhibiting control, Hanyu had a difficult transition going in and a well executed axel. You'll rarely see +3's across the board for a 3A. They both executed excellent 3As, just for different reasons... it's like saying "that spin had better speed so why did it get the same GOE as a spin with better positions?"

 

[museksk8r]

see a man doesn't have to have a quad to win; nor does a lady HAVE to have a 3/3.

No, not at the early season events when most everyone is very rusty, but for the Olympics and Worlds, yes, I think the skaters need to go for all their planned content; it's too risky not to. The Catch-22 is that the skaters need to have the more difficult elements in their programs at the early season competitions, so they can feel more practiced and more comfortable attempting them at the later/major competitions.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

And if we are talking GOE points for Chan's 3A:
4) good height and distance
5) creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched musical structure

Even if you want to be a hater and say the jump didn't have good height and distance, he still makes 4 bullet points which is +2 GOE.

 

[sky_fly20]

And if we are talking GOE points for Chan's 3A:
4) good height and distance
5) creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched musical structure

Even if you want to be a hater and say the jump didn't have good height and distance, he still makes 4 bullet points which is +2 GOE.

not as good as Yuzuru's to merit 2+ above GOE
who has difficult entry and jump comes out of nowhere of preparation

 

[Mathman]

There is nothing remotely controversial about the scoring here. Chan left some points on the table by not doing a quad. Oda fell on his quad attempt. Hanyu didn't do the combo. That's how it turned out.

 

[yyyskate]

As we all know 3A is the nemesis of patrick. He struggled with it so bad in the practice. But this 3A is luckily really good for him. really good hight and distance, there is a slow-mo of that 3A from a different angle at the end, from this angle, you can see it is actually more than 2 body length of patrick, definitely comparable to Paul Wylie's 3A listed before in terms of length and hight.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

not as good as Yuzuru's to merit 2+ above GOE
who has difficult entry and jump comes out of nowhere of preparation

GOE is treated as an absolute, not a relative. Lipnitskaia's layback was far more difficult than Gold's layback, but received the same score. Oda fell on his quad and Abbott landed his pretty decently, and yet both received -2's .

How can the judges "merited" giving Chan less GOE than Hanyu's axel when Hanyu had yet to even skate and they didn't know how Hanyu's 3A would be?! It's funny how after competitions people are like "So-and-so had a better spin/quad/etc. so why were they scored the same/lower?" GOE isn't marked like 6.0, where judges "leave room" in case a subsequent skater performs an element better than a prior skater. The judges weren't comparing Hanyu's 3A to Chan's... that's not how it works. So criticizing them for not thinking that way is absurd.

Note that Hanyu also had +3's on his axel, whereas Chan had none. So clearly, all judges were unwilling to consider Chan's axel as worthy of a +3, but some judges considered Hanyu's axel as a +3. The +1's were clearly harsh, but of course judges will be judges.

 

[deedee1]

No, not at the early season events when most everyone is very rusty, but for the Olympics and Worlds, yes, I think the skaters need to go for all their planned content; it's too risky not to. The Catch-22 is that the skaters need to have the more difficult elements in their programs at the early season competitions, so they can feel more practiced and more comfortable attempting them at the later/major competitions.

Completely Off Topic and not reading every and each posts in this thread but...

To those who live outside of North America and/or are not familiar with the word 'The Catch-22':
The word is from the famous best-selling novel by American author Joseph Heller, and it can be literally translated into 'dilemma' or 'paradoxical' in English. So it should be always accompanied with no other numbers but 22. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22

I heard SkateFiguring calling my name, I thought, and whispering me to answer it! Time for me to go to bed. Good night, everyone!

 

[tulosai]

No, not at the early season events when most everyone is very rusty, but for the Olympics and Worlds, yes, I think the skaters need to go for all their planned content; it's too risky not to. The Catch-22 is that the skaters need to have the more difficult elements in their programs at the early season competitions, so they can feel more practiced and more comfortable attempting them at the later/major competitions.

It also depends on the event. In the ladies SP here, 4 of the top 5 skaters including the top 2 had a clean 3/3. The one who didn't has far and away the best PCS of the top 5 and that is the only reason she's still in it. At another competition where women are falling left and right on the 3/3 (and it does happen) a 3/3 wouldn't be necessary, but if people are skating well with them, they become necessary. I think the quad is the same.

 

[Blades of Passion]

And if we are talking GOE points for Chan's 3A:
4) good height and distance
5) creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched musical structure

Even if you want to be a hater and say the jump didn't have good height and distance, he still makes 4 bullet points which is +2 GOE.

I wouldn't give effortless throughout. You can see the bit of vacillation in his air position, which is why the jump becomes close on rotation.

The ending GOE isn't just about the positive guidelines either, but also about the negative. Since the jump was so close on rotation, that can warrant a -1 for "lack of rotation". So even if you want to throw him enough of the guideline points for the +2, taking -1 off for a total of +1 GOE is accurate.

 

[Blades of Passion]

GOE is treated as an absolute, not a relative.

Not by good judges. Everything is relative to how it has been performed throughout the history of ice skating. A good judge has a clear picture of what a 0 GOE element should be like, a +1 GOE element, a -1 GOE element, a +2 GOE element, etc.

The GOE guidelines are exactly that - guidelines. Not absolutes.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I heard SkateFiguring calling my name, I thought, and whispering me to answer it! Time for me to go to bed. Good night, everyone!

We have good telepathy! I was off the board when you posted this but the day before I was writing to thank you in the Patrick Fan Fest thread but had difficulty composing on my tablet and I abandoned the post. But you heard my call anyway.

I am very happy to see you not adverse to appreciating your beloved Dai's rival. Patrick fans like myself, OTOH, have been barred from liking Dai and participating in his fan thread.

 

[Jaana]

Farris should not have tried to jump the single toe to make a combination after the quad (? or triple toe), but done a combo later in the program with the 3 Lutz. A more experienced skater would have done that.

 

[Art&Sport]

It's all relative (as Ashley Wagner tweeted to know-it-all Phil Hersh). With his initial tweet that Ashley needs to worry about her skating simply because Gracie performed well so far at SC, Hersh shows he favors Gracie when she's going good. He's just as liable to dump on Gracie too. OTOH, those who love Patrick will always defend his scores, and those who do not enjoy his skating or who have been turned off by his many wins with mistakes will always look for, mayhap even root for major flaws in his programs, fruitlessly since the judges see what they want to see when they watch Patrick.

Obviously ISU judges favor Patrick Chan when he's good, bad, mediocre with superb SS and so-so artistry, or whether he hits quads or not, or whether he falls or somewhat falls once or twice or 3 times or whether he makes mistakes on other jumps or not. Because Chan mastered quads so beautifully and relatively quickly and he has mucho skating skills and that's all that matters apparently -- they know Patrick can generally do quads well when he does them. The ISU judges a long time ago put all their marbles on Patrick, and they refuse to blink. They're going to stay on his ship all the way to Sochi. They won't give up the ship, even if it hits an iceberg.

I don't hate Patrick Chan. I hate the mockery the sport becomes when they continually put one skater on a pedestal despite whether or not he consistently delivers clean exciting programs.

 

[sweetskates1]

Bravo!

It's all relative (as Ashley Wagner tweeted to know-it-all Phil Hersh). With his initial tweet that Ashley needs to worry about her skating simply because Gracie performed well so far at SC, Hersh shows he favors Gracie when she's going good. He's just as liable to dump on Gracie too. OTOH, those who love Patrick will always defend his scores, and those who do not enjoy his skating or who have been turned off by his many wins with mistakes will always look for, mayhap even root for major flaws in his programs, fruitlessly since the judges see what they want to see when they watch Patrick.

Obviously ISU judges favor Patrick Chan when he's good, bad, mediocre with superb SS and so-so artistry, or whether he hits quads or not, or whether he falls or somewhat falls once or twice or 3 times or whether he makes mistakes on other jumps or not. Because Chan mastered quads so beautifully and relatively quickly and he has mucho skating skills and that's all that matters apparently -- they know Patrick can generally do quads well when he does them. The ISU judges a long time ago put all their marbles on Patrick, and they refuse to blink. They're going to stay on his ship all the way to Sochi. They won't give up the ship, even if it hits an iceberg.

I don't hate Patrick Chan. I hate the mockery the sport becomes when they continually put one skater on a pedestal despite whether or not he consistently delivers clean exciting programs.

 

[David21]

I would score Chan's PCS as 9.0 skating skills, 8.75 transitions, 8.5 performance, 8.25 choreography, 8.0 interpretation.

Would give him +1 GOE on the Triple Axel. He barely got the rotation. No transition leading into it. Really didn't deserve +2 from the whole panel. He was a little overscored on the flying sit (the last position is weak) and the combo spin.

Overall, he was given an extra 4 points from what a I feel an accurate score would be. That makes a big difference. It gives him a whole extra fall in the Long Program.

He also got overscored on his jump combo. With a stepout he should have gotten -2 but he generously mostly got -1s from the judges. ´

Chan was the only guy without a visible error tonight whereas the field pretty much all bombed. A casual skating fan wouldn't even notice Chan made an error in his combo, given how many in this thread were asking whether it was 4-3 or 3-3.

We're not talking about casual skating fans. We're talking about the judges who should have seen what was obvious and that Chan had a visible error to anyone who watched the program.

 

[karne]

Farris should not have tried to jump the single toe to make a combination after the quad (? or triple toe), but done a combo later in the program with the 3 Lutz. A more experienced skater would have done that.

Oh for crying out loud...

Eighteen. First Senior GP. Self-confessed "deer in headlights" moment. Are you seriously telling me that none of the other skaters in this field have ever botched a combo like that?

Plus, if he'd done that, he wouldn't have had a solo jump out of steps.