Proposals to ISU Congress 2018-2019 Season

[lavenderblossom]

I think refactoring PCS seems like a good idea for now, but as long as TES can continue to keep going up while PCS is capped, eventually we'll be in the same place as before...

Men should absolutely be able to wear tights :agree:

Projection is going to be a separate criterion... why? What difference does that make?

 

[pearly]

Tights are not pants.

 

[OS]

The Japanese proposal was more applicable to the ladies I think. They have been pushing that for a while since the days of Yuna/Mao.

Nice one Netherlands! Netherland is clearly the most progressive federation, how come we don't see more of them judging at international competitions? While we always get Russia, France and at least 2 or 3 Eastern European countries at major events.

They should add one more to the proposal

Marks for federation judges for own skaters will be discounted automatically ... so the judges can be all biased if they want, but their score won't be counted for own federation skaters. If it applies across the board for all federations, it makes it a fairer panel overall even on average. AND Especially makes it FAIRER for those federations who do not have a judge on the panel.

- Separate judging panel for GOE and PCS (quite a few countries) - the reason given: there is a larger scale of value now, so judges need to take time to evaluate correctly

Been saying that for 8 years... so glad they address it somehow. Costwise, they can work something out with judges from other events to share the burden. So judges can judge 2 or 3 events instead of 1 or 2 events during the same competition. All event uses the same rink, so it is not like there's going to be overlap.

 

[Danny T]

That is unclear. Which page?

Page 86, it was a proposal from Netherlands to let judge decide fall deduction instead of the tech panel. I find it interesting they think reduced review time is desired - it could be their own initiative, or the ISU really was pushing for that. I think Australia also mention reducing waiting time for judges' mark is one of their proposal goals.

In any case, I don't think the ISU is interested in giving correct technical calls anytime soon.

 

[JSM]

Oh, I meant it in the sense of "there's no cost there". And currently GOE is judged not really by the rules. Maybe this will guarantee rules being followed. But then, I also feel that the GOE rules need to be revamped.

Judges costs can be quite high not because they are paid directly, but because international judges have to be flown in and hosted, which means airline fees, hotel fees, and meals, which can certainly add up quickly!

 

[chopinskate]

Marks for federation judges for own skaters will be discounted automatically ... so the judges can be all biased if they want, but their score won't be counted for own federation skaters. If it applies across teh board for all federations, it makes it a fairer panel overall even by average. AND Especially makes it FAIRER for those federations who does not have a judge on the panel.

While this sounds good, it's not practical. You can discard the US judge for the US skater, but who's to say the RUS judge won't mark them down to make it unfair? This happened a lot these Olympics. We could say "no big feds on the panel", but that creates a weird power shift, as well. All in all, I'd rather the judges just didn't belong to feds, but rather were known skating experts, with a modicum of neutrality.

 

[OS]

While this sounds good, it's not practical. You can discard the US judge for the US skater, but who's to say the RUS judge won't mark them down to make it unfair? This happened a lot these Olympics. We could say "no big feds on the panel", but that creates a weird power shift, as well. All in all, I'd rather the judges just didn't belong to feds, but rather were known skating experts, with a modicum of neutrality.

That is so true... bummer! What if all judges's score card can be accounted for, how they mark from medium record to share... Transparency can help and hopefully keep them in check.

 

[chopinskate]

Page 86, it was a proposal from Netherlands to let judge decide fall deduction instead of the tech panel. I find it interesting they think reduced review time is desired - it could be their own initiative, or the ISU really was pushing for that. I think Australia also mention reducing waiting time for judges' mark is one of their proposal goals.

In any case, I don't think the ISU is interested in giving correct technical calls anytime soon.

So the GOE judges and the PCS judges can decide independently whether a skater fell or not?

 

[lavenderblossom]

I think no matter how you cut it you'll have national bias. Even if a judge is not attached to a federation, they were born and raised somewhere. Functionally it would be the same as bringing back anonymous judging.

If they really want to get rid of steps into solo jump as required element, what about making it a required criteria to give +5?
Still, if you leave this in the hands of the judges and not the TP, they'll all do it differently anyway, but you can't make the TP do it because the ISU wants to decrease review time...

 

[Andrea82]

Bosnia and Herzegovina want to reform the composition of the judging panels. They want 8 judges from countries with skaters at previous championships and 4 judges for countries without skaters last time.


Reason: For 10 years judges with no skaters qualified to participate in ISU Championships are excluded from panels of ISU championships except small chance to be drawn for panel of ISU Four Continents Championships.
To be 100% depend of skaters is also not in accordance with code of ethics
Which offers to all individual the opportunity for self –knowledge self expression
And fulfilment, personal achievement ,skill acquisition and demonstration of ability , social interaction ,enjoyment, good health and well – being.
It same time stop on way up to any promotion because of the reason as explained and connected with skaters. Judges are not responsible for development of skaters in their country if there is no other conditions to help development
As ice rink available, coaches and so on.

They could have stopped after "demonstration of ability" but the " social interaction ,enjoyment, good health and well – being" part is really an highlight!

 

[Winnie_20]

I seem to remember Mr. Prins commenting sometime last season (he commentates on Eurosport) that he had proposed that limit of only a certain number of jumps getting 1.1 bonus. Interesting to see it here now.
And I’m not surprised about the USB stick. It’s about time!!!

Now if only we had some Dutch skaters with as much “influence” on the figure skating ice... ;-)

Edit: 203. Now why doesn’t it surprise me that the Netherlands would want to get rid of deductions for falls?

 

[Danny T]

So the GOE judges and the PCS judges can decide independently whether a skater fell or not?

Maybe, maaybeee they really didn't think things through ...

 

[chopinskate]

Maybe, maaybeee they really didn't think things through ...

Judge X: Oh Kolyada totally didn't fall, that was just him artisitically interpreting the music after his 4Lz! +5
Judge X: That step-out was as good as a fall, Hanyu! -5

 

[chopinskate]

If they really want to get rid of steps into solo jump as required element, what about making it a required criteria to give +5?

Conflicting, IMO. What if someone has to sacrifice height/take-off just so they can do steps? Also, what if the musical interpretation doesn't call for steps, and they do a great jump right on cue? Someone shouldn't be capped at +3/+4 just because they care more about height, or interpreting the music.

The GOE checklist needs to be revamped, so I hope the final list is out soon.

(Unless you mean just the SP solo jump, which makes more sense)

 

[anirien]

- No compulsory deduction for falls, falls are interruption and should be reflected in PCS

So instead of having a mandatory penalty for falls we'll leave it up to highly subjective PCS deductions from the judges? Do they want more controversy?

- No repetition of any type of quad jump (tech comm) - reason given: "variety" & "giving credit to skaters that can perform all types of quad jumps"

This is the most puzzling to me. There are only a handful of men who can perform more than one or two types of quads, so this rule would only further distance the men at the top with the highest TES ceiling from the rest of the field, no matter how well skaters with less quads perform in every other aspect of their skating. Would they rather not have had skaters like Patrick Chan or Javier Fernandez at the top of the sport?

And then on top of that it will push more and more skaters to try risky jumps they may not be able to master and risk injury just to try to be competitive. I don't think up-and-coming men need that much encouragement to try mastering hard quads at this point. I would think the high point value of the higher level quads would be more than enough reward and incentive right now(though maybe they're reducing quad values), but it could seriously deflate a lot of the existing field.

And doesn't it just reduce the level of freedom in a free program? There's already the Zayak rule. Rewarding skaters who do all types of jumps (quads and triples together) is not a bad proposal but this just one just seems excessive and likely to favor a very small pool of skaters.

 

[Anyasnake]

If they really want to get rid of steps into solo jump as required element, what about making it a required criteria to give +5?

Yes to this a thousand times

For what I read : I do truly believe ISU officials read forums.

 

[OS]

Judge X: Oh Kolyada totally didn't fall, that was just him artisitically interpreting the music after his 4Lz! +5
Judge X: That step-out was as good as a fall, Hanyu! -5

Funny thing is X is clearly Russia lol...

Surprised no one wants to get rid of halfway bonus for SP, to have only 2 jumps rewarded I guess is sort of addressing it, but they could have just said reward more for balance order and placement of elements throughout the program.
I wish ISU clarify what they mean by the importance of 'balanced' program.

 

[Andrea82]

Funny thing is X is clearly Russia lol...

Or Finland...Finnish judge at Milan Worlds gave Kolyada +2 for a fall....to be fair, I think she wanted to give -2 but she pushed the wrong button...

actually, can't they introduce an auto-correction for this kind of mistakes?

 

[chopinskate]

That is so true... bummer! What if all judges's score card can be accounted for, how they mark from medium record to share... Transparency can help and hopefully keep them in check.

I think this already happens, right? That's how a few judges are reviewed?

Funny thing is X is clearly Russia lol...

It will happen for everyone! Shame if your country's judge isn't on the panel. Hope the TP still gets to decide. BAD proposal. But also, falling on hand-down with a large weight transfer should perhaps be considered falls now. IDK if it happens. Just preventing the rest of your body from being on the ice shouldn't make it not-a-fall. Maybe you need a balance check, sure that's not a fall, but otherwise...

Why not decrease the review time by increasing the number of tech panel members?

 

[OS]

Or Finland...Finnish judge at Milan Worlds gave Kolyada +2 for a fall....to be fair, I think she wanted to give -2 but she pushed the wrong button...

actually, can't they introduce an auto-correction for this kind of mistakes?

Yeah, I always thought ISU need to address this human error situation (one of convenience or deliberate error), to allow the judges to go back and review their scoring after everyone has skated. Otherwise, the skaters in the early flights always get penalised, while the skater in the final flight always gets inflated. There needs to be some sort of reconciliation process during the competition marking and between each competition to minimise false inflation.