Proposals to ISU Congress 2018-2019 Season

[chopinskate]

no steps jumps are horrible.
those glides through all the rink "omg i am about to jump".

just nope

No steps jumps aren't "horrible". No one's saying telegraph for a minute before the jump, but a traditional long set-up can be used to emphasise the tension of some music and the jump acts as release. There's suspense -- is the jump going to be successful? If the jump is huge, the pay-off is, too. If the jump is tiny, it's just unimpressive. It can absolutely be used artistically.

If the long setup works with the music, use it. If the long set up is being used to the detriment of the choreography, deduct points in PCS. Yet again it's a problem of the judging, not how the jumps themselves can be performed. The long set up is how many jumps were traditionally performed, superficial steps have become more common recently. I'm glad they aren't mandated. I'd rather jump quality and choreographic quality were not sacrificed just because skaters HAVE to do jumps with steps -- especially there's no real nuance to how the judges mark actually difficult steps, or steps that have choreographic purpose, and several skaters who add steps before all jumps do so with detriment to quality.

 

[Shayuki]

I'm fine with no steps before jump. Do them if the music asks for them, not superficially. And then these ones that are not asking for steps shouldn't be penalised, because they might have other supreme qualities. This is one non-mandated rule that makes sense.

It's quite a bit harder to jump a good jump without entries than to stalk it for 20 seconds. And I much rather watch a jump with a difficult entry than a telegraphed jump. Telegraphing jumps ruins the whole performance but these GOE rules encourage it. Because the first 3 bullet points are easier to hit without entry I expect almost everyone to completely bypass entries and do the easiest entry possible. And that's going to be horribly ugly.

 

[moriel]

No steps jumps aren't "horrible". No one's saying telegraph for a minute before the jump, but a traditional long set-up can be used to emphasise the tension of some music and the jump acts as release. There's suspense -- is the jump going to be successful? If the jump is huge, the pay-off is, too. If the jump is tiny, it's just unimpressive. It can absolutely be used artistically.

If the long setup works with the music, use it. If the long set up is being used to the detriment of the choreography, deduct points in PCS. Yet again it's a problem of the judging, not how the jumps themselves can be performed. The long set up is how many jumps were traditionally performed, superficial steps have become more common recently. I'm glad they aren't mandated. I'd rather jump quality and choreographic quality were not sacrificed just because skaters HAVE to do jumps with steps -- especially there's no real nuance to how the judges mark actually difficult steps, or steps that have choreographic purpose, and several skaters who add steps before all jumps do so with detriment to quality.

I never seen a single jump where the lack of steps would be good for the program. It is really annoying when a skater spends literally 20% of the program obviously preparing to jumps. It adds nothing to performance, really.
TBH i go with the russian representative on this one, probably judges cannot recognize steps anymore.

 

[Kirpich]

No steps jumps aren't "horrible". No one's saying telegraph for a minute before the jump, but a traditional long set-up can be used to emphasise the tension of some music and the jump acts as release. There's suspense -- is the jump going to be successful? If the jump is huge, the pay-off is, too. If the jump is tiny, it's just unimpressive. It can absolutely be used artistically.

If the long setup works with the music, use it. If the long set up is being used to the detriment of the choreography, deduct points in PCS. Yet again it's a problem of the judging, not how the jumps themselves can be performed. The long set up is how many jumps were traditionally performed, superficial steps have become more common recently. I'm glad they aren't mandated. I'd rather jump quality and choreographic quality were not sacrificed just because skaters HAVE to do jumps with steps -- especially there's no real nuance to how the judges mark actually difficult steps, or steps that have choreographic purpose, and several skaters who add steps before all jumps do so with detriment to quality.

I think some skaters might use it to make the program as easy as possible

 

[chopinskate]

It's quite a bit harder to jump a good jump without entries than to stalk it for 20 seconds.

Yes, it is quite a bit harder. So the three mandated bullets + the extra bullet for difficult entry will fetch the skater +4. If the skater sacrifices quality, then they shouldn't be getting +4.

I don't see how some are concluding that everyone's going to be telegraphing. There are already skaters who can't do very big jumps with clean entries, so this is one way to get better +GOE for them. And for those who jump big already, they will be getting more GOE. If it doesn't make sense choreographically, penalise them. Again, the fixing should be with the judging, not with adding more artificial requirements, or artificial restrictions.

ETA: I don't think necessitating the first three bullets was the best option, FWIW. It's why I think even more mandatory bullets makes little sense. But at least the ones that are mandated encourage good quality jumping.

I think some skaters might use it to make the program as easy as possible

And they should be penalised, yes, in PCS. It's a problem with the judging. But honestly, the ones who get away with it will get away with it even now. And it's not like steps were mandated previously for GOE, but skaters still did them, even some of the ones who had great jumps.

 

[yume]

Some skaters with telegraphed jumps already get good GOEs.

 

[kostornaya22]

I never seen a single jump where the lack of steps would be good for the program. It is really annoying when a skater spends literally 20% of the program obviously preparing to jumps. It adds nothing to performance, really.
TBH i go with the russian representative on this one, probably judges cannot recognize steps anymore.

It's a blessing for skaters who have only known basic crossovers as jump fillers. Just do the bare minimum and you are going to get them GOE's. Shame Nathan is not so refined and mature. Elegance can really hide them deficiencies in technical skills.

 

[sailorpooh]

Has the proposal to award the medals in the Olympic order during the victory ceremony passed? I hope so.

could you please elaborate on this proposal? I wasn't keeping up to date and I don't quite understand it

 

[lavenderblossom]

could you please elaborate on this proposal? I wasn't keeping up to date and I don't quite understand it

Podiums are currently announced in the order 1 - 2 - 3 (winner first). The proposal was to change it to being announced in the order 3 - 2 - 1 (winner last).

 

[gkelly]

There is already a negative GOE reduction of -2 to -3 (in the new version) for "long preparation."

So an obviously telegraphed jump would lose GOE for that reason, not matter how big or clean it might be or timed to the music it might be. If it started with all 5 of the other criteria besides preceding steps and then lost -2 for long preparation, the end result would be +3 at most.

On the other hand, a jump that is neither telegraphed nor preceded by anything other than simple but well-integrated stroking would neither lose nor gain points for the approach and would just be rewarded or penalized from the actual jump entry through the landing.

And, as chopinskate notes, a program that is empty between the elements should also lose (fail to earn) points in PCS, especially the Transitions and Composition components.

 

[moriel]

Some skaters with telegraphed jumps already get good GOEs.

but with new rules, there will be more of them.
Plus skaters like Caro will be getting +5s which makes 0 sense to me.

 

[chopinskate]

There is already a negative GOE reduction of -2 to -3 (in the new version) for "long preparation."

So an obviously telegraphed jump would lose GOE for that reason, not matter how big or clean it might be or timed to the music it might be. If it started with all 5 of the other criteria besides preceding steps and then lost -2 for long preparation, the end result would be +3 at most.

On the other hand, a jump that is neither telegraphed nor preceded by anything other than simple but well-integrated stroking would neither lose nor gain points for the approach and would just be rewarded or penalized from the actual jump entry through the landing.

And, as chopinskate notes, a program that is empty between the elements should also lose (fail to earn) points in PCS, especially the Transitions and Composition components.

Yes. I don't think there should be mandated bullets, but that's perhaps in an ideal world. There were several skaters who were sacrificing quality just to get a GOE bullet, and were never weighed against the negatives of their jumps, which got them max GOEs undeservedly. Steps are counted in a non-mandated bullet, and in the TR and CO components. Good quality jumping being enforced was really counted nowhere since the judges didn't really care. So if this at least gets the skaters to jump big and with good technique, that's a plus. They still have the additional bullet for steps, the TR+CO components, and the negatives for telegraphing.

 

[moriel]

There is already a negative GOE reduction of -2 to -3 (in the new version) for "long preparation."

So an obviously telegraphed jump would lose GOE for that reason, not matter how big or clean it might be or timed to the music it might be. If it started with all 5 of the other criteria besides preceding steps and then lost -2 for long preparation, the end result would be +3 at most.

On the other hand, a jump that is neither telegraphed nor preceded by anything other than simple but well-integrated stroking would neither lose nor gain points for the approach and would just be rewarded or penalized from the actual jump entry through the landing.

And, as chopinskate notes, a program that is empty between the elements should also lose (fail to earn) points in PCS, especially the Transitions and Composition components.

I am really curious to see if this will actually work.
I mean, skaters like Costner telegraph pretty much all their jumps, and A LOT. Will we see Kostner getting -2/-3 GOE deduction on all her jumps?

Knowing the judges, I really doubt it.

 

[yume]

I mean, skaters like Costner telegraph pretty much all their jumps, and A LOT. Will we see Kostner getting -2/-3 GOE deduction on all her jumps?

No.

 

[chopinskate]

To be fair, I doubt Med and Zag are going to not get +5s, either.

 

[Mathman]

I have to side with the folks who think the long dramatic set-up can be a crowd pleaser. We used to see programs all the time that started out like this one (Todd Eldredge, 1996 World Championship). OK, he didn't do a Mazurka before the 3A, but still ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFurTW8OHxM

 

[chopinskate]

I never seen a single jump where the lack of steps would be good for the program.

https://youtu.be/obgArp-Th2U?t=2m24s

Here you go.

 

[Henni147]

Yes it's true, but I don't see skaters jumping & spinning in both directions in any foreseeable future. It is such a unique skill and maybe as such should be specifically rewarded?

If a skater chose a program like "Lucifer, the fallen angel"... starting with rotations to the right (symbolizing innocence and purity), then changing the direction within a 3Lz+3Lz combo and continue with rotations to the left (the 'diabolic' direction to picture the banishment from heaven)... well, I'd become a fan immediately

I don't think that any skater will do something like that in the near future, but if so, we should keep up the chance for a real magic moment.
In case of a bonus I couldn't feel 100% happy about this achievement, because my head would be murmuring: he or she chose this program, because it fits the bonus - not because it's rebellious, cool, unique and innovative. That would be so sad... :sad46:

I really want to see 'rebellions' on ice, who don't need external encouragement to freak out and try something new. Ivett might not be the best technical skater, but damn: AC/DC was refreshing.

 

[yoloaxel]

Personally, I think that if a long setup for a jump makes sense with the music\performance, then it's fine, but a program where ALL the jumps have a long setup is just not great to me, and when jumps are choreographed out of steps they can look wonderful.

 

[moriel]

https://youtu.be/obgArp-Th2U?t=2m24s

Here you go.

I can add several ladies who have done long set-ups really well, but I know it's just going to spawn thinly veiled sexist comments, general denial, and how we shouldn't be clinging on to the past when the sport has advanced or whatever from several posters here, so I'll just not.

This is your personal preference.
For me, in your example, the no steps setup adds nothing to the program, and i would have rather seen steps there as it is more difficult and more interesting to watch.

Also, i step out of this discussion due to your attitude.