Should ISU take a stance on Yagudin's insults against other athletes?

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Trivially, it is.

Apart from that, could you tell us how and where we antagonised social justice and change? There's even a thread about celebrating black excellence on this forum, lol.

A thread in which certain people trivialized the significance of elite skaters who are black (and there were even a few racist posts) before the mods cleaned it up.

 

[ruga]

I don't know why there's outrage directed at Nathan for not unfollowing Yagudin. I checked and on Instagram he follows more than 2000 people. If you don't interract with a certain account, that account won't appear on your timeline and you may forget that you were following that person in the first place. Happened to me quite a few times and I follow way fewer people than Nathan. So maybe he just isn't aware that he is following Yagudin. Or just doesn't spend much time on social media.

 

[Skatesocs]

A thread in which certain people trivialized the need to recognize the importance of skaters being black (and even a few racist posts) before the mods cleaned it up.

True. But the thread in itself is still up and running and the mods did clear it up. How does that mean that this forum antagonizes social justice and change? I'm really not sure how this person thinks someone disagreeing that Nathan Chen should say something or even making a thread containing the words "Should the ISU..." means the forum is antagonistic? Overwhelmingly it isn't. A difference in viewpoint isn't antagonism. The poster is even banned now.

Everyone's opinion, no matter of age, should matter equally. A person who is 21 has a different set of like experiences than someone who is 40 just like someone who is 40 has a different set of life experiences than someone who is 70. All are valid. All are important.

But this is where I disagree. Maybe 21 year olds have something great to say, we can judge that by the worth of their comments. But overwhelmingly, like this poster for instance, we see people being forced to say something or get cancelled. Like Zhou got cancelled, at 17. Why is there no slack for this "life experience" part among the masses?

We don't even know if Nathan Chen is homophobic or not. Why must we force him to support gay people if he is homophobic? On the other hand, without knowing if he even supports gay people or not, why must we cancel him and be disappointed that he did not say anything? Why can't we give him time to just come into his own views and express freely?

 

[ancientpeas]

I believe what you are seeing is from most people is not "should the ISU do something" but rather "Can the ISU do something?" "What can they do?" "What about countries within the union who have anti homosexual laws?"

Yagudin works for a private broadcaster. The most effective way to insure he is made aware of the unacceptable nature of his comments is if the advertisers demand his removal. If these advertisers have international headquarters then tweeting or email them might be effective. If they are exclusively Russian sponsors then it is up to the Russian people to act. The ISU could try to force the broadcaster's hand I guess but it will probably backfire. As we have seen a lot of Russians are very upset by outsiders trying to dictate to them and they might end up supporting Yagudin not because they agree with him (some do) but because they feel we (the west) are interfering in Russian concerns.

 

[plushyfan]

Don't judge too early! Nathan follows 2000 people. Maybe he didn't see the posts. He eats, learns, trains , and sleeps.

 

[Skatesocs]

And yes, as ancientpeas pointed out it's an international forum. Difference of opinion will definitely exist. not everyone has to think in the way of North America. This thread, the good parts of it, are proof of that, even though nearly everyone agrees Yagudin sucks.

 

[silverfoxes]

I don't know why there's outrage directed at Nathan for not unfollowing Yagudin. I checked and on Instagram he follows more than 2000 people. If you don't interract with a certain account, that account won't appear on your timeline and you may forget that you were following that person in the first place. Happened to me quite a few times and I follow way fewer people than Nathan. So maybe he just isn't aware that he is following Yagudin. Or just doesn't spend much time on social media.

I'm sure he doesn't read Russian and he may not have paid any attention to this drama. People need to save their ire for the ones who are actually doing/saying indefensible things. You have no idea how much time someone spends on their social media - plenty of people do not check it every day or they skim it only briefly. I don't understand this dogpiling on those who don't say or do "enough," because it's never enough. People will take offense if you say the wrong thing, if you say nothing, if it comes off as disingenuous...you can't win with "cancel culture." It's ridiculous. Having said that, Yagudin clearly went way too far and he seems to have some serious issues. I don't understand how you can live in a cosmopolitan city and had the life experience he had and still say things like that. Why is he so easily triggered by what other people choose to do with their voices and their money?

 

[surimi]

Hate breeds hate.

This should be engraved in stone. :thumbsup:

 

[ancientpeas]

But this is where I disagree. Maybe 21 year olds have something great to say, we can judge that by the worth of their comments. But overwhelmingly, like this poster for instance, we see people being forced to say something or get cancelled. Like Zhou got cancelled, at 17. Why is there no slack for this "life experience" part among the masses?

We don't even know if Nathan Chen is homophobic or not. Why must we force him to support gay people if he is homophobic? On the other hand, without knowing if he even supports gay people or not, why must we cancel him and be disappointed that he did not say anything? Why can't we give him time to just come into his own views and express freely?

Within the confines of the forum no matter what your age your opinions have value and are equal. I am 50. There are several users here who are under 18. Their views are just as valuable as mine. Many of them are incredibly intelligent and articulate people (one has even written a book). I value and listen to their opinion. If my first reaction to reading their comments is "oh they are only 17 why should I listen to them" then I am the one missing out. I have learned so much from others who are much younger than me as I have learned much from listening to people much older than me. Sometimes it is hard to relate to some of their opinions but I find if I keep an open mind I can learn from them. I hope that they give my words equal consideration and maybe learn something from me. I have life experiences that they have yet experience. Conversely I have no idea what it is like to be a 21 year old today. I can listen, I can empathize but I have not lived it.

You can be an ignorant 80 year old nearly as easily as you can be an ignorant 21 year old.

 

[Skatesocs]

Within the confines of the forum no matter what your age your opinions have value and are equal. I am 50. There are several users here who are under 18. Their views are just as valuable as mine. Many of them are incredibly intelligent and articulate people (one has even written a book). I value and listen to their opinion. If my first reaction to reading their comments is "oh they are only 17 why should I listen to them" then I am the one missing out. I have learned so much from others who are much younger than me as I have learned much from listening to people much older than me. Sometimes it is hard to relate to some of their opinions but I find if I keep an open mind I can learn from them. I hope that they give my words equal consideration and maybe learn something from me. I have life experiences that they have yet experience. Conversely I have no idea what it is like to be a 21 year old today. I can listen, I can empathize but I have not lived it.

You can be an ignorant 80 year old nearly as easily as you can be an ignorant 21 year old.

But that's not what I meant. I agree we can judge worth. But it doesn't matter to me if someone that young says something or not. That's all I said. Not "even if you said something, it just doesn't matter, no matter how valuable", while allowing slack for them saying something dumb. It is this point where I'm taking issue with when it comes to that poster and also in general.

 

[ancientpeas]

But that's not what I meant. I agree we can judge worth. But it doesn't matter to me if someone that young says something or not. That's all I said. Not "even if you said something, it just doesn't matter, no matter how valuable", while allowing slack for them saying something dumb. It is this point where I'm taking issue with when it comes to that poster and also in general.

I think most people (the overwhelming majority of people) know that a younger person should be given the right to make mistakes. Sometimes in their passion and enthusiasm they make extreme statements and it is easy for older people to dismiss them based on that. Our real job is to listen, then engage and to respond in ways that are not "Oh you are a child listen to your wise elder and sit down." That is so not helpful. Conversely the very jaded opinions of some of us "old folk" are a terrible burden to them. We often seem to be trying to quell them and put them in their place.

When someone who is young makes a mistake I am more tolerant. Most people who have been around teenagers and young people regularly are. I do not hold Vincent to the same standard as I would someone like say Evan or Johnny Weir or even Adam Rippon. I can also say that if I don't like the opinion that that young person holds I do think it is fair to ask them about it and to, if it is appropriate, to let them know that I do not agree. I don't think any young person would tell us not to hold them accountable for their actions. If they want to be given responsibilities like driving a car or voting (and most want them desperately) then they also have to accept consequences. We have something here called The Young Offenders Act the purpose of which is to protect young people from having to do the same sentences as older people for the same crimes. The emphases is more on rehabilitation.

I wonder how many of us who are older (over 30 say) have the same opinions we did at 18. I know I don't. Some basic things are the same but most of mine have become more complex and less black and white now. That is how I see growing older: The great greying out. It was easier when I was younger. Things were black and things were white and I knew for a fact I would never do any of these things that other people did. And then I did do some of them and I understood more of how it happens. It didn't make it right but it did give me more understanding.

 

[el henry]

And yes, as ancientpeas pointed out it's an international forum. Difference of opinion will definitely exist. not everyone has to think in the way of North America. This thread, the good parts of it, are proof of that, even though nearly everyone agrees Yagudin sucks.

And what is thinking like "North America"? I would like to concentrate in the context of Yagudin and Ripon, because everything else is off topic.

And even if we could generalize to an entire continent (which of course we can't), is "thinking like North America" wrong?

Yagudin spoke as a child, and a willful, hateful, ignorant child at that. He should face consequences, in my opinion, for such speech. He is technically an adult and should understand that actions have consequences. If he wants to talk like this, he should face the consequences. (whether there will in fact be any is another question)

To me, that is thinking like a realist from anywhere on this earth

 

[Skatesocs]

To me, that is thinking like a realist from anywhere on this earth

If you see what I said, I don't even disagree with you, so I don't know why you gave me this long post. In no place in this thread did I even say Yagudin should not get fired, so I'm not sure at all. If you believe otherwise, please read the thread again. You sound like you would like to pick a bar fight over this, and I probably won't even turn up. And I'm saying this because I found the tone of your post incredibly rude. I'm not someone you can talk down to.

If you're really going to tell me that the shared history of the two major countries in NA - given their shared colonial past, and geopolitical collocation doesn't give them different perspectives from the rest of the world and also a bit in common, we're simply going to have to disagree. I've already expressed opinions in now deleted posts on other threads. And people from Asia and Eastern and Western Europe that I've seen speak about this disagree with you anyway.

If you don't want to go OT, then I'm not entertaining this further. The context of that post I was responding to is different and you missed it. It was about "social justice" and Nathan Chen, and if you're going to tell me that social justice is just as obnoxious everywhere in the world as it is in the US and Canada (and the UK), that's another thing I'm disagreeing with you about, without backing myself up. I can make whatever story up by taking any post on this thread out of context.

is "thinking like North America" wrong?

Depends on whom you ask

EDIT: Oh and yes, the Russians on this thread were disagreeing with all of us, and we even had a Czech person disagree, so again, even if general, there is a difference depending on location and history. I'm not going to sit here and pretend otherwise. I am not going to let myself get forced into agreeing.

 

[mrrice]

Wow.......17 pages of this. I don't know what will happen to Alexei's Broadcasting career but I can tell you that I would be very disappointed to hear his comments. I've seen Russian commentary translated into English and I would be shocked to see the things he's said about Adam and others. However, I will not hold his comments against my opinion of Russia.

Being black and gay, I can tell you that I had the BEST time there and I have never been with so many passionate, talented, and sweet dancers. I hope Alexei learns from this experience as I truly love his skating.

 

[ccrl]

I've read both Yagudin's and Rippon's memoires books, it's an interesting comparison.

 

[Jaana]

Don't judge too early! Nathan follows 2000 people. Maybe he didn't see the posts. He eats, learns, trains , and sleeps.

OMG, I don´t follow any person at all...

 

[Skatesocs]

I used to be on Reddit. It added nothing useful whatsoever to my understanding of skating. Maybe it's better off if your aim is to enjoy other aspects of the sport.

 

[plushyfan]

OMG, I don´t follow any person at all...

:thumbsup:

 

[noskates]

Harsh of true? I think you can find whatever it is you're looking for on ANY message board. I prefer to usually stay in threads that are positive, informative, and sometimes fun. I only came into this one because Alexei used to be one of my favorite skaters - operative words USED TO BE. But I think that when a thread reaches a certain number of pages and it ceases to be informative, then it oozes into contention among the posters. I'm not sure what they're looking for or what their expectations are by continuing to rehash. I don't find Golden Skate to be a verbal den of iniquity. If someone feels that way then choose another place to hang out. Alexei needs to be dealt with for sure. Who that responsibility falls to will be interesting. But as I said before, if you want to contribute to that - write letters!! Let the people that have the power to deal with him know what skating fans are thinking. On the same note, I dont' think it's the responsibility of past or present figure skaters to lead that charge. Most of them right now are trying to salvage whatever they can out of whatever this season is going to be. Their job is to skate!!

p.s. I don't find it surprising at all that Plushenko agreed with Adam. There has never been any love lost between him and Yagudin. EVER.

 

[lucyrose]

The censorship and moderation on this entire forum makes no sense to me. How is this place so heavily moderated yet way more argumentative and angry than any other forum? The moderators pick and choose which posts fall under the category of "off topic". If your're going to delete my posts why not Skatesosc? Double standard is unreal.