Single flip advice; adult skater with surgical hardware

[serene_oz]

Hi everyone,

I am very curious as to which path I may be recommended. A little about me: I am a 24 yr old female with a weaker left side due to a physical trauma that occurred in 2018. I have ankle plates and a rod in the femur. I skated as a teen at 14, started at basic 1, and got up until free skate 1 with waltz jumps and basic 1-foot spin.

About six months ago, starting in January 2023, I decided to get back into skating for fun. Since I am an adult, it leaves me in a weird place. I cannot go back to freeskate due to being older than 16. So I started skating twice a week with a coach. I have the majority of the fundamental skills, crossover F and B, tree-turns (except for FLI, can do it but uncontrolled check), mohawks (inside and outside), forward brackets, and back tree-turn on the Right side only, BUT no double trees, counters, rockers, chasses, etc. I do have nice spirals.
Since January this year, up until now--so, about almost 6 month mark of skating with a coach as an adult-- I have learned: single salchow, single toe-loop, single loop (my best jump), and currently working on the flip jump. My coach feels it is possible for me to get my single axel. My spins are horrible because I have a stability issue with my left leg. Physical therapy has been helping still not stable enough (to hold an entry edge on the left, rotating counter-clockwise). Every once in a blue moon, I can do a scratch spin. I noticed my right side's edge quality is pretty good; on the left, I can barely hold my edge long enough. Thus, salchow and flip (with left tree-turn entry) have been rigid. I can't land the flip yet. I do think my progress is fairly great, considering my orthopedic condition. I also have a necrotic (dead) bone in my left foot-it just hurts.

My intentions when I started skating were "just for fun." I had no intention of competing, run a program, etc. Now, I imagine I should be doing even better at the two-year mark and hopefully working on my axel at that point. I am interested in doubles at some point; I don't mind how many years it takes. I skate 2-3 days a week, each session from 2-3 hrs. Please tell me how realistic it is to achieve doubles with the amount of practice I do at this age. My coach says I have a great flow and do learn fast. Issues do come up, usually relating left leg. The problem with the flip jump is the loss of check after the FLO tree-turn. My left knee rises up when I tap with my right foot to jump. Please let me know if there's a way to improve controlling my tree-turns and maintain a bent knee after the check.

To prepare for competition, I need to go through moves in the field levels. I probably would pass pre-preliminary MIF in the standard track. Although I am an adult, I found out I can still go through the standard track (up through senior) vs. the adult track (adult gold). I prefer standard, but do you think doing an adult track is better?
Overall, any recommendations or advice? Do you think achieving a few double jumps is a realistic goal?

Thanks for reading

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Hi everyone,

I am very curious as to which path I may be recommended. A little about me: I am a 24 yr old female with a weaker left side due to a physical trauma that occurred in 2018. I have ankle plates and a rod in the femur. I skated as a teen at 14, started at basic 1, and got up until free skate 1 with waltz jumps and basic 1-foot spin.

About six months ago, starting in January 2023, I decided to get back into skating for fun. Since I am an adult, it leaves me in a weird place. I cannot go back to freeskate due to being older than 16. So I started skating twice a week with a coach. I have the majority of the fundamental skills, crossover F and B, tree-turns (except for FLI, can do it but uncontrolled check), mohawks (inside and outside), forward brackets, and back tree-turn on the Right side only, BUT no double trees, counters, rockers, chasses, etc. I do have nice spirals.
Since January this year, up until now--so, about almost 6 month mark of skating with a coach as an adult-- I have learned: single salchow, single toe-loop, single loop (my best jump), and currently working on the flip jump. My coach feels it is possible for me to get my single axel. My spins are horrible because I have a stability issue with my left leg. Physical therapy has been helping still not stable enough (to hold an entry edge on the left, rotating counter-clockwise). Every once in a blue moon, I can do a scratch spin. I noticed my right side's edge quality is pretty good; on the left, I can barely hold my edge long enough. Thus, salchow and flip (with left tree-turn entry) have been rigid. I can't land the flip yet. I do think my progress is fairly great, considering my orthopedic condition. I also have a necrotic (dead) bone in my left foot-it just hurts.

My intentions when I started skating were "just for fun." I had no intention of competing, run a program, etc. Now, I imagine I should be doing even better at the two-year mark and hopefully working on my axel at that point. I am interested in doubles at some point; I don't mind how many years it takes. I skate 2-3 days a week, each session from 2-3 hrs. Please tell me how realistic it is to achieve doubles with the amount of practice I do at this age. My coach says I have a great flow and do learn fast. Issues do come up, usually relating left leg. The problem with the flip jump is the loss of check after the FLO tree-turn. My left knee rises up when I tap with my right foot to jump. Please let me know if there's a way to improve controlling my tree-turns and maintain a bent knee after the check.

To prepare for competition, I need to go through moves in the field levels. I probably would pass pre-preliminary MIF in the standard track. Although I am an adult, I found out I can still go through the standard track (up through senior) vs. the adult track (adult gold). I prefer standard, but do you think doing an adult track is better?
Overall, any recommendations or advice? Do you think achieving a few double jumps is a realistic goal?

Thanks for reading

Hi and welcome!

Yes, if your coach feels like it's possible for you to accomplish even a few doubles in the future (since your coach knows you better than us), then it should be possible.

Have you asked your coach about 3-turns and how to fix things with those and your entry? What did they say?

Also, IMHO, I feel that the adult track would probably be best for you.

Good luck!

 

[serene_oz]

Hi and welcome!

Yes, if your coach feels like it's possible for you to accomplish even a few doubles in the future (since your coach knows you better than us), then it should be possible.

Have you asked your coach about 3-turns and how to fix things with those and your entry? What did they say?

Also, IMHO, I feel that the adult track would probably be best for you.

Good luck!

Hi, and thank you for your reply!
When I do my left three turns, the knee does not stay bent after the check and is stiff, making it challenging to execute a flip jump. If I do it slowly from a standstill, the check is controlled. When going into a salchow from back crossovers, because I am stepping into the turn from ongoing motion, I quickly lose the ability to control my knee, which looks like I am popping up on my knee before jumping.

 

[midori green]

Have you tried doing a mohawk instead of a three turn for your flip and salchow?

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Hi, and thank you for your reply!
When I do my left three turns, the knee does not stay bent after the check and is stiff, making it challenging to execute a flip jump. If I do it slowly from a standstill, the check is controlled. When going into a salchow from back crossovers, because I am stepping into the turn from ongoing motion, I quickly lose the ability to control my knee, which looks like I am popping up on my knee before jumping.

Ask your coach to teach you the mohawk entry for those jumps then.

Edited to add, LOL I didn't see the post above this one, so at least we agree here.

 

[mskater93]

I was going to recommend an alternate entry as well (mohawk or directly from a back inside edge) for both jumps.

For MIF, I would do the adult track and when you complete your Gold MIF, crossover and take Intermediate --> Senior. The adult track is intended to give you the basics while being a little more adult body friendly.

 

[serene_oz]

I was going to recommend an alternate entry as well (mohawk or directly from a back inside edge) for both jumps.

For MIF, I would do the adult track and when you complete your Gold MIF, crossover and take Intermediate --> Senior. The adult track is intended to give you the basics while being a little more adult body friendly.

That is what I decided to do! I am getting closer to landing the flip!

 

[High Carbon]

Hi everyone,

I am very curious as to which path I may be recommended. A little about me: I am a 24 yr old female with a weaker left side due to a physical trauma that occurred in 2018. I have ankle plates and a rod in the femur. I skated as a teen at 14, started at basic 1, and got up until free skate 1 with waltz jumps and basic 1-foot spin.

About six months ago, starting in January 2023, I decided to get back into skating for fun. Since I am an adult, it leaves me in a weird place. I cannot go back to freeskate due to being older than 16. So I started skating twice a week with a coach. I have the majority of the fundamental skills, crossover F and B, tree-turns (except for FLI, can do it but uncontrolled check), mohawks (inside and outside), forward brackets, and back tree-turn on the Right side only, BUT no double trees, counters, rockers, chasses, etc. I do have nice spirals.
Since January this year, up until now--so, about almost 6 month mark of skating with a coach as an adult-- I have learned: single salchow, single toe-loop, single loop (my best jump), and currently working on the flip jump. My coach feels it is possible for me to get my single axel. My spins are horrible because I have a stability issue with my left leg. Physical therapy has been helping still not stable enough (to hold an entry edge on the left, rotating counter-clockwise). Every once in a blue moon, I can do a scratch spin. I noticed my right side's edge quality is pretty good; on the left, I can barely hold my edge long enough. Thus, salchow and flip (with left tree-turn entry) have been rigid. I can't land the flip yet. I do think my progress is fairly great, considering my orthopedic condition. I also have a necrotic (dead) bone in my left foot-it just hurts.

My intentions when I started skating were "just for fun." I had no intention of competing, run a program, etc. Now, I imagine I should be doing even better at the two-year mark and hopefully working on my axel at that point. I am interested in doubles at some point; I don't mind how many years it takes. I skate 2-3 days a week, each session from 2-3 hrs. Please tell me how realistic it is to achieve doubles with the amount of practice I do at this age. My coach says I have a great flow and do learn fast. Issues do come up, usually relating left leg. The problem with the flip jump is the loss of check after the FLO tree-turn. My left knee rises up when I tap with my right foot to jump. Please let me know if there's a way to improve controlling my tree-turns and maintain a bent knee after the check.

To prepare for competition, I need to go through moves in the field levels. I probably would pass pre-preliminary MIF in the standard track. Although I am an adult, I found out I can still go through the standard track (up through senior) vs. the adult track (adult gold). I prefer standard, but do you think doing an adult track is better?
Overall, any recommendations or advice? Do you think achieving a few double jumps is a realistic goal?

Thanks for reading

Hello! Interesting scenario you have here, thank you for being willing to share. I just finished up my degree in exercise science and completed the pre-physical therapy program at university as my prerequisite for becoming a physical therapist so while limited to an undergraduate education I might have some helpful two cents, though it may simply just be agreeing with what others on this thread have already said
Firstly bravo for coming back to skating after getting hardware in your femur, that's truly already a commendable feat. I do have a couple questions to see if I can rule out any biomechanical issues that a skate tech can fix. Firstly when you do a simple knee bend on one foot does your foot track over your first and second toe? If if tracks towards the inside of your foot instead of directly over your big toe you could benefit from a shim or insole. This could possibly owe to or help with your stability on that foot since the balance may have changed since surgery.
What I think is more likely that the stress on the femur that happens when you tap and draw in for your flip. Generally a skater is supposed to stay down in the knees as they tap, but the leg may not be used to that kind of movement and stress yet. How does your loop jump feel? is there a similar loss of control? Some exercises like pistol box squats and touching your hand to the floor at your left, front, and right side while balancing only on your left foot may be beneficial too as they help develop the kind of movement necessary for a flip. But I still advice talking with your PT about anything related to this for sure! They have a better understanding of what your body is doing that they'll have far better advice!
Lastly, if I may ask, what bone in your foot has become necrotic? depending on the bone it may owe to a loss of balance as well. Again, if I may ask, does it get worse with use or does the necrotic bone stay stagnant or degrade regardless of use? Always prioritize health first! and if any of the questions are uncomfortable to talk about on a public forum feel free to private message.
I would probably recommend the adult track to allow yourself to take your time learning your skills post surgery while still having achievable levels. Doubles aren't out of the question but take it one step at a time and prioritize learning the basics with good stability and quality first.
I know that was a lot in one response, multifaceted questions usually get a multifaceted response haha. Let me know if you have any questions about any of it!

 

[patti]

FWIW i have been going through something with my shoulder. i just got my first double sal (after skating 4 years and starting in my late 30s) and then fell and shattered my shoulder. hardware, screws, and the whole bit. My shoulders weren't level, so I could still spin but lifted my hip to compensate so I could avoid traveling even though I looked funny. My jumps had completely lost center (shoulders really have to be level). I just frustrated and went back to edges and figures.

Perhaps what helped me will help you. If you are under 40, consider having the hardware taken out if you don't need it anymore. I lied to my surgeon and told him I was a professional skater, shameless lying, because I didn't want him to just put me in a sling and send me home because of my age. So he took my hardware out as soon as my bones were healed enough to do so (every surgery poses a risk so its not always the right idea, but if your bones are fully healed you technically don't need the titanium anymore. Getting it out is MUCH less painful that the surgeries that fixed you up). Your surgeon will know whether this will be an option for you, but it made a difference to me. My arm moved more freely without it. Also, if your bones are in the correct place (according to your surgeon) on the xray, but the problem is that you are not holding them in the right place with all your soft tissues... this is fixable. But takes a lot of time and persistent work, and is more likely to be the case not knowing your situation since surgeons are pretty awesome at what they do. It took me ten years. So you still have a ways to go. But don't quit. It will happen. It did to me. Just one day all of a sudden I found the muscles that get my shoulder back and down.

These things really helped me improve 1) I did my physical therapy like it was a second job - way more than what I was asked to do - and in a relentlessly driven way. 2) focusing on alignment my squaring my shoulders and hips in the mirror before every move. Even though I could never get them level, I tried every day 3) rediscovering how to use my arm correctly including the muscles that had atrophied and been forgotten. I had to learn how to use my arm all over again because I couldn't discover my lats or rotator now matter how hard I tried. Essentially the alignment and missing stabilizer muscles were preventing me from checking, even on a simple right outside 3 turn. Still can't do smooth movements when I have to twist my upper body to the right, but I know I can do it eventually 4) And I can't stress this enough, don't learn stuff wrong (ie acquiring bad habits to overcompensate for your bad leg). Instead, go back to basic edges and practice doing them really well... stuff like that. If you have good edges, as soon as your leg is ready for a double jump you will be able to do it because you have the edge control that most skaters just skip over in a hurry to get that axel. You will get all those jumps so much faster, I think, if you do that. And working on those edges will help you build the stabilizer muscles you have forgotten. Coaches have a tendency to push skaters forward too because it is so rewarding to improve like that and that is what skaters want. And they don't usually have the medical knowledge that would help them modify your training. But in my case, and maybe yours, the best thing in the long run was to do lots and lots and lots of figures, deep edges, and perfecting moves you already can do along with the exercises to work on what you can't. Build a solid foundation while you work on the slow process of fixing whatever the problem is with your anatomy. Talk it over with your coach and see what they think.

So to build up all that strength that you have lost, i would 1) Focus on the thing you can't do and come up with skills exercises while skating that, while boring, will help. Like do two foot three turns every day on a circle and feel the check. Focus on your knee bend with crossovers or with simple stroking. Perfect form is hard to get. 2) Don't give up. 24?? There is absolutely no way you can't do this unless your injury is such that it is impossible or your just give up trying. And I don't think either of those is true. Necrotic bone sounds bad, but its not going to be like that forever and there are techniques to regenerate bone. I was 15 years older than you when I started skating and I was able to crack out one double. You can absolutely do this. Just be patient.

 

[WednesdayMarch]

FWIW i have been going through something with my shoulder. i just got my first double sal (after skating 4 years and starting in my late 30s) and then fell and shattered my shoulder. hardware, screws, and the whole bit. My shoulders weren't level, so I could still spin but lifted my hip to compensate so I could avoid traveling even though I looked funny. My jumps had completely lost center (shoulders really have to be level). I just frustrated and went back to edges and figures.

Perhaps what helped me will help you. If you are under 40, consider having the hardware taken out if you don't need it anymore. I lied to my surgeon and told him I was a professional skater, shameless lying, because I didn't want him to just put me in a sling and send me home because of my age. So he took my hardware out as soon as my bones were healed enough to do so (every surgery poses a risk so its not always the right idea, but if your bones are fully healed you technically don't need the titanium anymore. Getting it out is MUCH less painful that the surgeries that fixed you up). Your surgeon will know whether this will be an option for you, but it made a difference to me. My arm moved more freely without it. Also, if your bones are in the correct place (according to your surgeon) on the xray, but the problem is that you are not holding them in the right place with all your soft tissues... this is fixable. But takes a lot of time and persistent work, and is more likely to be the case not knowing your situation since surgeons are pretty awesome at what they do. It took me ten years. So you still have a ways to go. But don't quit. It will happen. It did to me. Just one day all of a sudden I found the muscles that get my shoulder back and down.

These things really helped me improve 1) I did my physical therapy like it was a second job - way more than what I was asked to do - and in a relentlessly driven way. 2) focusing on alignment my squaring my shoulders and hips in the mirror before every move. Even though I could never get them level, I tried every day 3) rediscovering how to use my arm correctly including the muscles that had atrophied and been forgotten. I had to learn how to use my arm all over again because I couldn't discover my lats or rotator now matter how hard I tried. Essentially the alignment and missing stabilizer muscles were preventing me from checking, even on a simple right outside 3 turn. Still can't do smooth movements when I have to twist my upper body to the right, but I know I can do it eventually 4) And I can't stress this enough, don't learn stuff wrong (ie acquiring bad habits to overcompensate for your bad leg). Instead, go back to basic edges and practice doing them really well... stuff like that. If you have good edges, as soon as your leg is ready for a double jump you will be able to do it because you have the edge control that most skaters just skip over in a hurry to get that axel. You will get all those jumps so much faster, I think, if you do that. And working on those edges will help you build the stabilizer muscles you have forgotten. Coaches have a tendency to push skaters forward too because it is so rewarding to improve like that and that is what skaters want. And they don't usually have the medical knowledge that would help them modify your training. But in my case, and maybe yours, the best thing in the long run was to do lots and lots and lots of figures, deep edges, and perfecting moves you already can do along with the exercises to work on what you can't. Build a solid foundation while you work on the slow process of fixing whatever the problem is with your anatomy. Talk it over with your coach and see what they think.

So to build up all that strength that you have lost, i would 1) Focus on the thing you can't do and come up with skills exercises while skating that, while boring, will help. Like do two foot three turns every day on a circle and feel the check. Focus on your knee bend with crossovers or with simple stroking. Perfect form is hard to get. 2) Don't give up. 24?? There is absolutely no way you can't do this unless your injury is such that it is impossible or your just give up trying. And I don't think either of those is true. Necrotic bone sounds bad, but its not going to be like that forever and there are techniques to regenerate bone. I was 15 years older than you when I started skating and I was able to crack out one double. You can absolutely do this. Just be patient.

This has some excellent advice about physical therapy. So much can be accomplished by doing it correctly and diligently.

Having the hardware removed, however, is a different thing, especially when there is a weight-bearing bone involved. It's a massive difference having the metal removed from a leg/ankle than from a shoulder, (unless you happen to be a chimpanzee). I would advise being absolutely truthful with your surgeon if you ask about this. And take the advice you're given rather than trying to find someone who will just agree to do what you think you want.

Physical therapy, however - that's a big YES!

 

[patti]

This has some excellent advice about physical therapy. So much can be accomplished by doing it correctly and diligently.

Having the hardware removed, however, is a different thing, especially when there is a weight-bearing bone involved. It's a massive difference having the metal removed from a leg/ankle than from a shoulder, (unless you happen to be a chimpanzee). I would advise being absolutely truthful with your surgeon if you ask about this. And take the advice you're given rather than trying to find someone who will just agree to do what you think you want.

Physical therapy, however - that's a big YES!

That's a really really good point. I hadn't thought of that. Every injury is different.

My main point in writing it was that I realized surgeons make decisions about our acceptable risks for us. We want then to do that because they are the experts (so yes, take the advice you are given). But along with that, they are balancing operation risks against risks to the patient, and they have to make assumptions about the patient to do that. My first surgeon was a genius with his craft - how he put that ball back together I have no idea -- but he had not expected that I would do physical therapy for four hours a day consistently for two and a half years.... most people don't do that. My second surgeon did realize that, which is why I got that last couple surgeries back to back and the hardware out ASAP. He realized I would stop at nothing to stake again and worried a lot less about my tolerance for repeat extremely painful surgeries. So the assumptions surgeons make about you can make a difference.

You can pick up your images, learn online about the particular kind of ORIF or other procedure you had, read articles on surgical techniques (which includes those risks they watch out for), discover the techniques your surgeon prefers and why, watch videos of the procedures even, and perhaps this might find that exploring those options could lead to an opportunity because you have a better sense of what to ask during a discussion about next steps and the possibility of corrective surgery. I learned about all the stuff they had to get through to get to their working area, which helped me target my physical therapy in a more intelligent way, such as threading my biceps tendon which no longer had a sheath and it no longer slips in and out of place. I'm a trained scientists so I could muddle through the jargon in a field I didn't know. That might make is less productive for you to do this if you don't have that kind of training, but perhaps worth a try.