Top Senior Ladies jumps traits (Height, Speed, Prer, Delay)

[Ziotic]

IMO some of the biggest jumps are some of the biggest eyesores and actually diminish a program. Not always though. Sometimes the size of some jumps can enhance the performance. That’s why we need judges there at ice level to measure these things. I don’t think height alone is anything to get too excited over but I’m sure some of the judges get all worked up about it. That’s fine...we all don’t need to value the same things on the same scale.

But shouldn’t we since it’s a sport? Isn’t this ambiguity part of the problem fans seems to get so upset when skaters aren’t scored correctly mainly due to politicking.

No one ever disputes who wins a race so why should I be tech score for skating be different when there are ways (with technology) to accurately assign points for what is performed.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

https://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/ternovblogfk/2269103.html

Finally second part of this extremely interesting statistics - albeit in Russian (you still can use google translate) but with clear enough graphics and tables. It covers seniors from this season (mostly russian and japanese) - however there are some words about juniors and japanese Ice Scope technology in introduction part of the article as well. Measurement methodology is explained in detail in his earlier articles from last season about the same jumps traits (however there were only height and rotation speed then) of juniors and seniors (you can found them if you click on author name there and scroll down the list). In short - mostly it was done with large amount of video frames measurements and some formulas from geometry and physics applied.
Enjoy! :agree:

P.S.: first part about junior ladies jumps statistics is here https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?77001

Thanks for sharing!! It’s a lot to take in

 

[Sam L]

Kostner has great jump qualities and should receive great GOEs when she returns. Proper technique, rotations done in the air, great height and distance, correct edges from takeoff to exit, nice air position, effortless, etc. Too bad that people only focus on her relatively longer entries and problems with consistency. But hey, it's harder to be as consistent when one doesn't cheat their jumps. Also, I appreciate that she is holding that exit edge instead of doing random transitions that have nothing to do with the music or program.

She’s old school but old school is good in Figure Skating.

 

[figurefan0726]

Everyone complains about the pre rotation of the Russian girls but what about Satoko’s prerotation? She is the worst.

 

[Elucidus]

Everyone complains about the pre rotation of the Russian girls but what about Satoko’s prerotation? She is the worst.

Most japanese girls prerotates no less than russian girls. Moreover there are at least two russian girls with textbook technique (Tsurskaya, Tuktamysheva) while there is only one japanese (Kawabata). However it's not trendy nowadays to scold nonrussians, isn't it?
Also I can't help but notice again how unfair beatiful Tsurskaya's jumps were judged. Shame on techcallers for their obvious prejudice against her - her jumps are absolutely rotated enough in my book. Much more so than tiny Satoko's jumps were rotated. Tsurskaya's huge ones with almost zero prer were 45-60 degrees under while Satoko's heavily prerotated ones usually are 90-100. But after looking at protocols one can think that they were swapped - that's how much their jumps GOEs and calls are mismatched with what they really showed on ice.

 

[figurefan0726]

Most japanese girls prerotates no less than russian girls. Moreover there are at least two russian girls with textbook technique (Tsurskaya, Tuktamysheva) while there is only one japanese (Kawabata). However it's not trendy nowadays to scold nonrussians, isn't it?
Also I can't help but notice again how unfair beatiful Tsurskaya's jumps were judged. Shame on techcallers for their obvious prejudice against her - her jumps are absolutely rotated enough in my book. Much more so than tiny Satoko's jumps were rotated. Tsurskaya's huge ones with almost zero prer were 45-60 degrees under while Satoko's heavily prerotated ones usually are 90-100. But after looking at protocols one can think that they were swapped - that's how much their jumps GOEs and calls are mismatched with what they really showed on ice.

I absolutely agree. I went to see her at Skate America and her short program looked very clean except for her last 3F, which is two-footed and was definitely under. The whole audience was shocked when her score was announced (around 58-59)! Clearly, the judges are bias and strict to some skaters and clearly not to others like Miyahara.

 

[Ziotic]

I love her jump height, but they do look under to me even in real time. That being said Satoko also has UR jumps that weren’t called.

Tukt deserves better imho. She has good height, speed, flow and technique. Better choreo and she’s be #1 for sure.

 

[yume]

Most japanese girls prerotates no less than russian girls. Moreover there are at least two russian girls with textbook technique (Tsurskaya, Tuktamysheva) while there is only one japanese (Kawabata). However it's not trendy nowadays to scold nonrussians, isn't it?
Also I can't help but notice again how unfair beatiful Tsurskaya's jumps were judged. Shame on techcallers for their obvious prejudice against her - her jumps are absolutely rotated enough in my book. Much more so than tiny Satoko's jumps were rotated. Tsurskaya's huge ones with almost zero prer were 45-60 degrees under while Satoko's heavily prerotated ones usually are 90-100. But after looking at protocols one can think that they were swapped - that's how much their jumps GOEs and calls are mismatched with what they really showed on ice.

Textbook example of what you said about Miyahara and Tsurskaya's jumps: Their 3lz-3T in SP at SA. The judging was absolutely atrocious.


About Japanese ladies, besides Kawabata, Araki, Yokoi, Yamashita and Higuchi are not bad either. Yamashita and Higuchi's only issue is that flip edge which is usually flat.

 

[jenm]

I’m not the one besmirching skaters and attempting to belittle an entire technique/style. You won’t see me criticizing skaters for their preferred technique although I must add that edge on Caro’s exit was not held out very long IMO...at least compared to the glide in It’s actually a great jumping pass TBH and I think the judges are more than capable of sorting this stuff out.

But if we must bring skaters completely unrelated to the topic let me digress
https://youtu.be/JsO8AxKQnsE?t=59s

Great transition in and out in spite of average height. The entrance and exit are completely related to the musical composition and not only impresses but just as importantly expresses

To me transitions in and out add purpose to a program far more than height does but I don’t think it’s fair to expect every judge or fan to see it my way. I think though a lot of folks underestimate the value and impact of connecting programs this way. Glide and focus on basics is one pathway but not the only way to a great score.

I get you. But I think that height and distance should weigh more than transitions simply because a jump is not a jump if you take those two out. I mean those are literally the main components of a jump. Not a lot of people can jump far and high, hence the use of transitions to make up for those deficiencies. I also find it funny (pls dont think of this as an insult or anything) to use Julia as an example for 2A as her 2A in itself is weird. Great, difficult entrance but the jump in itself has a weird takeoff. But overall, that jump in the video is one her best 2As, but still not a good example of a 2A in general.

Also completely unrelated (I just want to post it here), an example of a +4 / +5 2A for me (diff. entry, great height, distance and flow, flawless landing, steps after): https://youtu.be/V3eKCNNzRk0?t=85

 

[jenm]

Polina's jumps are huuuuuuge. She and Liza Tuk are both great jumpers.

 

[jenm]

Everyone complains about the pre rotation of the Russian girls but what about Satoko’s prerotation? She is the worst.

Didn't Satoko get a lot of hate for her pre-rotation and jump height over and over again in this site? Some people even called her jumps "twizzles" so she's faaaaaar from being exempted from the hate train.
I'm glad her jumps improved this season. She's a very hard working athlete.

 

[largeman]

The pre-rotation measurement stats look about right in general... but Satoko's numbers look a bit "generous." I mean, her pre-rotation must be much more than 210 degrees on the 3T and likely more than 190 degrees on the 3Lz. Same goes for Zhenya's 3T and 3S... I don't think her pre-rotation on the 3S is the same amount as that of Liza, Polina and Wakaba. Just look at where her blade leaves the ice here

 

[Reddi]

The first thing I noticed is that Satoka has a higher 2A than Alina and yet Alina gets +4s for that jump...

She is 1,7 cm higher Do you expect judges to spot that staggering difference with an unarmed eye? At the same time, Zagi jumps her 2A from a Charlotte spiral and her 2A is visibly less pre-rotated. So while I'll agree with +4 being a bit too much I don't think Satoko deserves the same GOE for her 2A.
It's kinda ironic that you raised "the justice for Satoko" issue while the general height and pre-rotation (and underrotations ahem ahem) of nearly all of her jumps don't nearly match her jumping GOEs which are sometimes on par with good jumpers such as Tuktik.

 

[Sugar Coated]

The article says that although Satoko is expectedly last in the rankings, her total height for all 6 jumps was slightly over 150 cm two years ago, while it's slightly over 180 now. Proof of her hard work to improve her jumps.

Also, Rika's 2A is 39 cm and she gets 51 cm for her 3A, that's amazing.

To me it seems that they jump as high as necessary to complete the rotations, not as high as they are capable. Thats why a 2a is not going to be as high as a 3a even if you are able to jump both. Which makes sense since why jump higher than necessary, your body probably has intuitively learned the amount needed and conserves energy.

Also, they are likely learning triples when they are younger (10-11 years old?) so that they are learning to jump when they may not yet have their potential for maximum height. But once you learn how to complete the jump, your muscle memory kicks in and you remember it that way even if you gain more potential for height as you get older.

This also makes me suspect that training for 3a or quads may mess up the jumps for 2a or the associated triple. The body needs to learn the difference in how high to jump and how fast to rotate and can’t necessarily rely on habitual motor memory.

I don’t necessarily have data to back this up, but my intuition is that Alina has potential for bigger jumps. I think she is unwittingly holding back her potential height as she is doing just enough to complete the jump. But her athleticism makes me suspect she could actually adjust to jump the harder jumps (3a/quads) especially given how effortless many of her current jumps look.

 

[chopinskate]

It's fun to read, but, I mean, the ISU don't care, hon.

And yet again there was a random example of Kostner's 2A as being anywhere close to ideal. It's good, but if that got a +5, then I have to wonder what someone like Ito would get. Or if jump size had a moving window on the skater's own body structure, then whether Ito would be getting +20s on her jumps today, never having crossed 4'11" in her time as an amateur competitor.

 

[Ziotic]

She is 1,7 cm higher Do you expect judges to spot that staggering difference with an unarmed eye? At the same time, Zagi jumps her 2A from a Charlotte spiral and her 2A is visibly less pre-rotated. So while I'll agree with +4 being a bit too much I don't think Satoko deserves the same GOE for her 2A.
It's kinda ironic that you raised "the justice for Satoko" issue while the general height and pre-rotation (and underrotations ahem ahem) of nearly all of her jumps don't nearly match her jumping GOEs which are sometimes on par with good jumpers such as Tuktik.

It’s funny, I was not on the justice for Satoko. It was more about the ridiculous inflation of Alina. It’s to point out that Alina’s 2A technique is really bad and the jump is scary almost all the time.

I like transitions so long as the jump is still of good quality, but Alina does IMO too many transitions that lower the quality of her jumps and I don’t feel she should be rewarded when others like Polina and Liza, Mariah or even Masha have better jump qualities.

I see the scoring as; if you have great height, takeoff/landing and speed it should be a +3. Then if you have transitions or musical placement you can reach +5. However if transitions impact the quality of the jump then you should be reducing the GOE.

 

[Shayuki]

The pre-rotation measurement stats look about right in general... but Satoko's numbers look a bit "generous." I mean, her pre-rotation must be much more than 210 degrees on the 3T and likely more than 190 degrees on the 3Lz. Same goes for Zhenya's 3T and 3S... I don't think her pre-rotation on the 3S is the same amount as that of Liza, Polina and Wakaba. Just look at where her blade leaves the ice here

They're in general pretty generous, yes. Satoko's jumps such as 3Lutz certainly looks closer to 270, and Medvedeva's -3T is often close to 270 as well. I also seriously doubt Kihira pre-rotates 3A only 90 degrees, even in the GIF they included it looks to be more. Tsurskaya's also look generous. I'd take the pre-rotation numbers with a grain of salt.

Still, some comparison with the last season is interesting. Especially for skaters who changed coaches such as Medvedeva. Her 2A indeed looks improved. However, the 3Lo looks to have decreased in height slightly, while almost everyone else's jump height has increased. In general, I suspect some sort of a change in methodology, as it's tough for me to believe that everyone would have managed to gain 2-6cm on just about every jump of theirs over the course of the season.

Sakamoto indeed is along the middle of the pack, which certainly makes sense. She's one of these skaters whose jumps being amazing I've never really subscribed to.

 

[jenm]

^^ Zhenya was/is having back problems. Perhaps that affected her 3Lo?

 

[Skater Boy]

2A deserving of high GOE with beautiful held exit edge with relation to the music: https://youtu.be/BxblyXdFzeM?t=193



Like it or not, she is a top senior lady returning at Euros and competing. Her jumps are prime examples of what the rules describe as good quality.

Carolina does have nice jumps the ones that she does and when she lands them. She seems a bit more volatile in respect to landings.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Surprises:

- Masha is really high up in the rankings and yet... she still underrotates a lot. Same goes for Polya.
- Mako has so little prerotation! Why don’t people acknowledge her more for that?
- Liza (Nugumanova) has almost as much delay in rotation as Masha, Polya, Nastya and co. but she still has small jumps
- Masha improved by a lot apparently in terms of height, but in terms of rotational ed...