USA Today stories on John Coughlin

[Sugar Coated]

Let’s not forget that Suicide is often a sign of or a potential indicator of mental illness. We don’t know John’s medical history or his true state of mind during this tragic situation. Maybe it was guilt...maybe mental anguish...maybe several other factors combined. Until we know further the extent of certain extenuating circumstances it might be best not to make sweeping assumptions about the accused or the accusers.

Things aren’t always as simplistic as we prefer to make them out to be. Heck even if we were to just assume John was guilty and committing one final evil act to affect his accusors or to escape facing the situation......I still think it’s possible to have a nuanced discussion about SafeSport not presenting a final report. IMO regardless of the facts of John’s case I think we need to have a serious discussion on whether or not SafeSport’s actions are acceptable. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

You are right that we don't know his mental health history. People commit suicide for a variety of reasons. Shame or public humiliation can contribute to suicidal thoughts or actions, but likely mental health issues are also in play. Ultimately, I think its misplaced for this reason to put blame on Safe Sport and not treat this suicide as a mental health issue.

The reality is that there are a multitude of things in life that can make someone more vulnerable to suicide - my girlfriend broke up with me, my boss fired me after 30 years of working at a company, my husband cheated on me with my best friend, I was in a embarrassing video that went viral. That doesn't mean that the people involved in these events "caused" a suicide or are necessarily at fault.

People experience life stressors and mental health may make them unable to deal with these stressors in a healthy way.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

You are right that we don't know his mental health history. People commit suicide for a variety of reasons. Shame or public humiliation can contribute to suicidal thoughts or actions, but likely mental health issues are also in play. Ultimately, I think its misplaced for this reason to put blame on Safe Sport and not treat this suicide as a mental health issue.

The reality is that there are a multitude of things in life that can make someone more vulnerable to suicide - my girlfriend broke up with me, my boss fired me after 30 years of working at a company, my husband cheated on me with my best friend, I was in a embarrassing video that went viral. That doesn't mean that the people involved in these events "caused" a suicide or are necessarily at fault.

People experience life stressors and mental health may make them unable to deal with these stressors in a healthy way.

I’m not blaming nor have I blamed anyone for John’s Suicide. I’m frustrated that SafeSport isn’t releasing a final report that I think has the potential to shed light on the situation in a way that may help draw awareness in helping preventing some future victims from being put into similar situations.

To me John’s Suicide and SafeSport’s obvious issues and poor performance here are completely unrelated.

 

[Sugar Coated]

I’m not blaming nor have I blamed anyone for John’s Suicide. I’m frustrated that SafeSport isn’t releasing a final report that I think has the potential to shed light on the situation in a way that may help draw awareness in helping preventing some future victims from being put into similar situations.

To me John’s Suicide and SafeSport’s obvious issues and poor performance here are completely unrelated.

I agree, sorry for making assumptions. I saw a lot of posters blame SafeSport for the suicide and I don't think that's appropriate.

I do understand why they might not release a report though. SafeSport's mission is to protect athletes from individuals committing abuse. If the individual who poses a potential threat can no longer be considered a threat, then it doesn't make sense to spend time and resources on this. It also is going to present challenges and criticism if they cannot get complete testimony from the accused individual and he has not opportunity to rebut the claims. So I can understand not publishing this particular case but potentially starting to investigate other individuals who may have known or helped cover up any potential abuse. Which would be a different case I assume.

 

[elbkup]

Do you believe in total transparency for child victims? That for them to see justice, everyone has to know forever what happened to them when then were a child? And this decision may be made for them by adults, not necessarily the decision of the child if they'd prefer not to be identified and press charges? Society hasn't changed. Online bullying is real. Look at how some of the outlets who reported on PUBLIC information were treated. Can you imagine being a child/teen victim and facing this kind of harassment for coming forward? Again, not saying anything about the alleged victims in this case but how this is handled more generally and why we protect identities, particularly of children.

As other's pointed out, the victims were not anonymous to John or the figure skating bodies. He had enough information to know who was accusing him. This information was just kept out of the public domain to protect potential victims.

Your argument also ignores for potential power differentials. Accusers and alleged perpetrators are often not in equal positions of power.

I come from the perspective of what we should aim for not what is...
Children in the current environment of course should be shielded from the court of public opinion. But the shame guilt victims experience from abuse keeps them from reaching out, trusting those that can help and results in years of silent torment. The stigma of labelling "victim" needs to disappear tho it will not happen anytime soon.. my heart goes out to anyone who has been in this position and suffered indescribable anguish in coming forward. The power differential is a very real concern as you point out: fear of public bullying and violent retaliation from an abuser is the primary reason why so many victims remain silent but their silence also provides cover for a perpetrator to continue abusive behavior.. it is Catch-22.. a devious cycle that must be reformed.

 

[5Ali3]

The "within 72 hour hearing" is not a hearing on the merits of the underlying allegations: it is an "emergency" hearing to appeal interim measures. The only relevant topic is whether the Center has adequate evidence to support the need for the interim measure, and if the responding party has evidence to refute the Center's evidence. The hearing is conducted by a third party arbitrator. The cost of the arbitrator is split between the Center (2/3rds) and the responding party (1/3rd).

John's sister made a comment on a public post on Facebook that John's attorney told John that John would lose the appeal and it would be a waste of money.

 

[believed]

USFS needs 'immediate change,' says Senator Blumenthal

U.S. Figure Skating must make ''immediate change'' in the wake of the U.S. Center for SafeSport's chilling assessment that the national governing body has a culture of sexual abuse that has gone “unchecked for too long,” Senator Richard Blumenthal told USA TODAY Sports in an email Tuesday evening.

“I am appalled that no one in authority appears to understand the lessons of the horrific failures that enabled Larry Nassar’s abuse of young gymnasts for almost 30 years,” wrote Blumenthal, D-Conn., the ranking member of the Senate subcommittee investigating the Olympic sexual abuse scandal.

[...]

“SafeSport’s sharp remarks on the culture of abuse in USFS must prompt immediate change, not deafening silence or finger-pointing,” he said. “Rigorous oversight, increased transparency, and full accountability are needed to protect the safety of young athletes, build a culture that encourages survivors to come forward, and restore the reputations of these institutions.”

Civil rights attorney Nancy Hogshead-Makar, an Olympic gold-medal winning swimmer and CEO of Champion Women, also criticized USFS’s silence.

“U.S. Figure Skating is sending a clear message that they don’t care about victims,” Hogshead-Makar said in a phone interview. “There is a culture of coaches molesting and ‘dating’ their athletes, and older athletes ‘dating’ younger athletes, and of course in both cases it’s about power — the power an older athlete has over a younger athlete. USFS has done nothing to address that issue. It’s very revealing how badly they don’t want to upset the current status quo of who has the power.”

“Larry Nassar gave the Olympic movement a gift — a gift of the opportunity to take something so horrible and be able to change a very damaging culture into something better. NGBs can either use that gift and make it happen or it can be as torturous and as damaging as can be imagined.

"Either USFS can have integrity and investigate its culture and come clean and apologize and make it right with the victims, or they can let John Manly do all that.”

In his email, Blumenthal also called out the U.S. Olympic Committee, saying both USFS and the USOC “still seem to be sleepwalking through the sex abuse nightmare.”

Read more here: https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...re-skating-needs-immediate-change/3352261002/

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

The civil rights attorney brings up some good points, but I think it's hard for an organization like USFS to police undesirable, but legal, behavior. If a 40 year old coach is dating his 18 year old student, for example, there could be a power disparity that the elder might be taking advantage of. Maybe the student has been groomed for years, but nothing inappropriate happened while they were a minor. This relationship would be legal anywhere in the world, but it isn't ideal, and I don't know what role USFS would play in addressing this.

 

[louisa05]

The civil rights attorney brings up some good points, but I think it's hard for an organization like USFS to police undesirable, but legal, behavior. If a 40 year old coach is dating his 18 year old student, for example, there could be a power disparity that the elder might be taking advantage of. Maybe the student has been groomed for years, but nothing inappropriate happened while they were a minor. This relationship would be legal anywhere in the world, but it isn't ideal, and I don't know what role USFS would play in addressing this.

This made me contemplate the large age differences we sometimes see in pair skating. Caydee Denney's two partners were 9 and 8 years older than her respectively. She was a minor the entire time she competed with Jeremy Barrett. She was a minor when she paired up with Coughlin. Rockne Brubaker skated with Mary Beth Marley for a season when she was 15 and he was 9 years older. Todd Sand's first senior level partner was 12 years younger than him. This list could go on forever.

Not saying anything inappropriate happened in any of these pairings, BUT a power differential could certainly be in play between pair skaters particularly given the scarcity of strong male pair skaters. A young girl who wants to compete pairs and needs a partner certainly could feel pressure to do anything a partner wants to keep him around. Perhaps limiting age differences, particularly when one partner is a minor would be a good step for the ISU as a whole as well as making it completely clear that romantic relationships between pairs that start with large age gaps when one is a minor are not ethically acceptable. If two adults skating together want to get involved, so be it--Meno and Sand or Inoue and Baldwin being examples of pairs who didn't have a large age gap and began skating together when both were adults. But if one is 27 and the other is 18 and they've been skating together since the younger was 16, that could be a problematic dynamic.

I would say that coaches with a lot of elite skaters at their training facility should make it clear that romantic relationships between adult skaters and minor skaters are not acceptable--within reason. If they start dating at 15 and 17 and are still dating at 17 and 19, that's a different situation. But starting a relationship at the rink at 21 and 16 should never be acceptable.

 

[oly2018]

I mean, at most universities, professors/faculty are not allowed to engage romantically with the student body. In most cases, students themselves are adults, but the power dynamic that exists is too big to ignore. I don't see why a similar thing couldn't be implemented within sports organizations. The above post brings up a good point. the age gaps in some pair teams is a bit of a recipe for something to go wrong, even if it is accidental. Those relationships are inherently more intimate than most and that is supposed to just be accepted, even if someone involved is a minor. You never know what makes someone feel uncomfortable, but if your job relies on touching other people, it is easy for things to get misconstrued or for someone to seriously groom a minor or young adult.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I would say that coaches with a lot of elite skaters at their training facility should make it clear that romantic relationships between adult skaters and minor skaters are not acceptable--within reason. If they start dating at 15 and 17 and are still dating at 17 and 19, that's a different situation. But starting a relationship at the rink at 21 and 16 should never be acceptable.

I agree with everything you said. I just don't know what enforcement would look like if the behavior isn't prohibited by law. 21 and 16 is illegal most places, but 17 is the age of consent in many US states. Does USFS ban a skater who dates a 17 year old? What about a coach who does so? Does it matter if the parent approves of the relationship? A lot of this depends on factors particular to each situation, so it's a big challenge.

 

[skylark]

--Meno and Sand or Inoue and Baldwin being examples of pairs who didn't have a large age gap and began skating together when both were adults. But if one is 27 and the other is 18 and they've been skating together since the younger was 16, that could be a problematic dynamic.

Meno and Sand have a 7-year age difference, but yes they were both adults.

I would say that coaches with a lot of elite skaters at their training facility should make it clear that romantic relationships between adult skaters and minor skaters are not acceptable--within reason. If they start dating at 15 and 17 and are still dating at 17 and 19, that's a different situation. But starting a relationship at the rink at 21 and 16 should never be acceptable.

Gordeeva was 17 and Grinkov was one month shy of 22 when they began seeing each other romantically. I'm just saying, once it's decided to legislate such things, we don't know if we're cutting off potentially wonderful partnerships. And they'd been skating together since she was 11. So the suggested limit of, "not allowed even when she's 18" if they've been skating together since the man was 21 and the woman 16, also would have been cut off, if limits such as are being suggested here were in effect. It makes more sense to me to take the persons into account.

To bring these bits of trivia together, Jenni Meno switched to pairs after seeing G & G.

 

[Sugar Coated]

Most companies have HR policies in place for coworkers who may become romantically involved. I'm not sure why similar policies couldn't be implemented for figure skating. Romantic relationships must be reported to protect against potential power differentials. And absolutely no dating among coaches and their personal skaters. If the athlete is an adult and wants to pursue a relationship, get a new coach.

 

[Mathman]

I just don't know what enforcement would look like if the behavior isn't prohibited by law.

The USFSA could say, "Law, schmaw, just don't do it. If you do you will be decertified (or whatever) as a USFSA-approved coach.

(But Possibly the sanctioned coach would be able to bring suit on the basis that the USFSA is preventing them from earning a living at their profession?)

 

[louisa05]

Meno and Sand have a 7-year age difference, but yes they were both adults.



Gordeeva was 17 and Grinkov was one month shy of 22 when they began seeing each other romantically. I'm just saying, once it's decided to legislate such things, we don't know if we're cutting off potentially wonderful partnerships. And they'd been skating together since she was 11. So the suggested limit of, "not allowed even when she's 18" if they've been skating together since the man was 21 and the woman 16, also would have been cut off, if limits such as are being suggested here were in effect. It makes more sense to me to take the persons into account.

To bring these bits of trivia together, Jenni Meno switched to pairs after seeing G & G.

Initial reports were that Coughlin was accused of inappropriate or grooming behavior in what he interpreted as a consensual relationship with a minor when he was older. That doesn't mean it was a partner. But these partnerships with large age gaps--essentially an adult skating with a teen absolutely could become problematic.

As for G & G...well, who are we to assume it wasn't ever an unhealthy dynamic? We don't know. It's been romanticized, particularly due to his untimely death. But in reality, most parents would be less than comfortable with a romantic relationship between a 17 year old and a 22 year old, for very good reasons. I do, however, suspect the power dynamic between pair skaters may be different in the U.S. where good male partners are in short supply in contrast to the situation in Russia in their time when partners were available and essentially assigned with no option to change. In the very fraught situations here, it would be easy for a girl in a partnership to feel some pressure to do what she had to do to keep a partner--a situation that would make exploitation easy. We've seen good skaters have their careers end for lack of a strong partner, after all. You want to go to the Olympics, you have to make it work, right? Or he can find another partner while you might not be able to.

Many institutions and organizations have rules about people engaging in relationships. There's no reason that rules could not be made for athletes in situations where one or both could be exploited. But, really, limiting large age differences may be a better step. We have seen gaps over a decade before. Anything over 3-4 years should maybe be avoided, unless the partnership begins when both are adults.

 

[el henry]

The USFSA could say, "Law, schmaw, just don't do it. If you do you will be decertified (or whatever) as a USFSA-approved coach.

(But Possibly the sanctioned coach would be able to bring suit on the basis that the USFSA is preventing them from earning a living at their profession?)

Theoretically (and I would hope in practice, although I have no knowledge of the practice), the USFSA would require a signed document from a prospective coach:

"I have passed XYZ tests (here is the proof)
I have taken all classes (here is the proof)
I agree to abide by all guidelines issued by USFSA and I have read the attached 83 pages of legal gobbledygook with those guidelines.
I have been advised to further enrich the legal profession and have had the opportunity to consult with my paid shill of a lawyer. I sign this document voluntary"

Signed/ Skater Coach Wannabe X.

And this should be a defense, if written correctly, against the suit about "earning a living". It would, however, be subject to suits that USFS did not follow its own 83 pages of legal gobbledygook.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

The USFSA could say, "Law, schmaw, just don't do it. If you do you will be decertified (or whatever) as a USFSA-approved coach.

(But Possibly the sanctioned coach would be able to bring suit on the basis that the USFSA is preventing them from earning a living at their profession?)

It's tough. Personally, I wouldn't be in favor of a blanket rule like that because there probably will be times in which two consenting adults enter a relationship, and merely being a coach/student situation shouldn't be the reason it's prohibited. If a skater met her coach when she was 23, and fell in love with him at 24, do we want to ban him from the sport? In practice, I don't think that's a situation anyone would raise a stink about, but it shows that these rules have to cover a wide variety of scenarios.

 

[eaglehelang]

China's Zhao HB & Shen Xue have a 5 year age gap. They started pairing in 1992, when Zhao was 19 and Shen 14.

As we know, they got romatically involved and married each other. But Shen & Zhao is seldom used as as example in the west, probably cos of China athletes domitory style living quarters.

The men & women live in separate dorms. As far as I know, China coaches dont prohibit the athletes from dating, as long as it doesnt interfere with training. Training & results take priority. If the coaches deem it's distracting from training or there's a conflict in the relationship, they can step in.

That's between training partners & team mates, if its between coach & student its harder due to the power balance.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Can't really use G & G and S/Z as legit examples since their cultures and the time period was very different than the discussion at hand.

 

[tothepointe]

The civil rights attorney brings up some good points, but I think it's hard for an organization like USFS to police undesirable, but legal, behavior. If a 40 year old coach is dating his 18 year old student, for example, there could be a power disparity that the elder might be taking advantage of. Maybe the student has been groomed for years, but nothing inappropriate happened while they were a minor. This relationship would be legal anywhere in the world, but it isn't ideal, and I don't know what role USFS would play in addressing this.

That kind of thing would almost fall under the PSA authority. Psychologist/therapists I know have a professional obligation to not date their clients within 5 years of them being clients. I'm trying to remember if the nursing boards have similar clauses.

You don't HAVE to date your students. Yet it happens so often you have to give it at least a little side eye.

In high school at least two of my classmates ended up (publically) dating teachers after school had finished yet people in the know were aware that the relationships started much earlier.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

That kind of thing would almost fall under the PSA authority. Psychologist/therapists I know have a professional obligation to not date their clients within 5 years of them being clients. I'm trying to remember if the nursing boards have similar clauses.

What are the consequences for violating these obligations? In a lot of professions, certain relationships are frowned upon but the rules have no "teeth" (i.e. there is no real consequence for violating them). When I was in college, professors weren't supposed to have relations with students, but they did. Especially for tenured faculty, nothing was really done about it. In regards to figure skating, I think there is already skepticism anytime a coach dates a pupil. When these relationships break any laws, something has to be done. When they don't, I'm not so sure, and it likely depends on a variety of other factors.