What are "good" skating skills?

[Bluediamonds09]

I'm not new to the sport, but I truly don't understand what good skating skills are. I know when a skater is going fast or awkwardly slow, but I don't know what the back position is supposed to look like. I don't know what "pumping" is, or what "shallow edges" are. I don't know how long a skater is supposed to remain on one foot before it's considered amazing. Truly can't even tell what is a level 2 footwork or a level 4! All I see on this topic is fighting amongst fans. Surely great skating skills is a straight Yes or No answer?
There are tons of detailed videos explaining what a Lutz is, or what pre-quarter rotation is. But NONE on good SS. I keep checking YouTube videos (Kiki the Red Panda, On Ice Perspectives, We Love Skating, figureskatingtea, Deep Outside Edge, etc.) to see if someone has posted a video on SS. But there's nothing. Please help!

 

[Coach Aimee]

I actually have a video on YouTube that dives into the definition of Skating Skills: https://youtu.be/jVM1HbS5dyc

However, how a judge marks this component is subjective, so there is no straight answer.

 

[gkelly]

Are you familiar with the ISU communications that come out each spring listing the scale of values, requirements for levels, and GOE and program components criteria?

ISU Communications - International Skating Union

The International Skating Union is the international sport federation administering Ice Skating sports throughout the world.

isu.org

See ISU Communication 2558 for the most recent Singles and Pairs guidelines (updated today!) for explanations of the program component criteria (what the judges do) and how step sequence levels are determined (what the technical panel does).
For Ice Dance, you can find the step sequence rules (as well as those for other elements) in Communication 2560.

If you've got the basic rules/published guidelines down, then we can seek out more detailed explanations of the components and step sequence requirements.

E.g., the basic definition of what is evaluated under skating skills under the current guidelines is:
The ability of the skater to execute the skating repertoire of steps, turns and skating movements with blade and body control.
Variety of edges, steps, turns, movements and directions
Clarity of edges, steps, turns, movements and body control
Balance and glide
Flow
Power and speed

ISU program component videos from several years ago, when there were still 5 components -- here are the ones about Skating Skills (see sidebar for the full list):

4.1.1. ISU components. Skating skills. Skating skills overview

www.youtube.com

Body positions can vary, so don't look at that first for understanding skating skills. Look mostly at the blades. Although the body alignment and balance over the blades is also relevant.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

The previous posters mostly covered what you need, so I won't reiterate.

If you want to see this kind of thing via youtube and in action. Go watch videos of Patrick Chan, Kurt Browning, Jeremy Abbott (especially his more recent pro work), Jean-Luc Baker, Paul Poirier, Zach Donohue and Madi Hubbell, Keegan Messing (his edge skills are amazing). There are others but that's just a few.

 

[WednesdayMarch]

Watch some top level ice dancers. They have great skating skills. Then watch top level free skaters and you should be able to judge for yourself who has any skating skills at all...

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Specifically on the scoring of a step sequence, I had been quite impressed by this article, alas in Russian, comparing the respective step sequences of Alexandra Trusova (correctly assessed as Level 3 because of a minor error) and Kamila Valieva (erroneously assessed as Level 4 with high GOE for a real Level 1 because of multiple errors, plus rather blurry steps, flat edges) during Grand Prix 2021:
https://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/ageofquads/2981825.html
DeepL automatic translation worked well, except that they mix rocker and counter (translating them as hook), but it seems to be крюки and выкрюки in the article (I don't read Russian).

 

[4everchan]

well... you will have guessed it but here I come.

Watch Patrick Chan.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

GOAT tier skating skills: https://youtu.be/qBaIP39KveA
Very good skating skills:

GUIGNARD / FABBRI (ITA) | Ice Dance Free Dance | Tokyo 2023 | #WTTFigure

To license ISU footage: https://bit.ly/3M7bcaFSUBSCRIBE to our channel:https://www.youtube.com/SkatingISU?sub_confirmation=1LIKE us on Facebook:https://www.f...

youtu.be

The difference between highest level of skating skills and just below that, is the completeness. Gabby and Guime have effortless flow, speed, power, deep edges, and the softest knees you could get.

Marco an Charlene have most of that. The flow from one movement to the next isn't quite sublime as Gabby/Guime, but they have some of the best edges, and lots of speed across the ice.

There are lots of other skaters with weaker skating skills, I won't really go into that on this post.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

GOAT tier skating skills: https://youtu.be/qBaIP39KveA
Very good skating skills:

GUIGNARD / FABBRI (ITA) | Ice Dance Free Dance | Tokyo 2023 | #WTTFigure

To license ISU footage: https://bit.ly/3M7bcaFSUBSCRIBE to our channel:https://www.youtube.com/SkatingISU?sub_confirmation=1LIKE us on Facebook:https://www.f...

youtu.be

The difference between highest level of skating skills and just below that, is the completeness. Gabby and Guime have effortless flow, speed, power, deep edges, and the softest knees you could get.

Marco an Charlene have most of that. The flow from one movement to the next isn't quite sublime as Gabby/Guime, but they have some of the best edges, and lots of speed across the ice.

There are lots of other skaters with weaker skating skills, I won't really go into that on this post.

Also god-tier but in a different aspect:

Virtue & Moir - 2009 TEB CD - Golden Waltz

youtu.be

I feel like different categories of skating skills are considered more or less valuable at any one time. I think Virtue/Moir are better than Gabby/Guillaume when it comes to skill sets most emphasised in early 2010s ice dance (close hold, textbook footwork). That said, teams train to suit the rules of the era they are competing in, so I'm sure G/G would have skated differently if they had started their careers a decade earlier.

For singles skaters there are universally valued areas of skating skills like deep edges and flow, but out of the pool of 'good' skaters some may be more precise/agile with their footwork, some better at generating power etc. (For example, Satoko vs Kaori, or Nathan vs Yuzuru). And then there's Patrick Chan who basically ticks every box

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Also god-tier but in a different aspect:

Virtue & Moir - 2009 TEB CD - Golden Waltz

youtu.be

I feel like different categories of skating skills are considered more or less valuable at any one time. I think Virtue/Moir are better than Gabby/Guillaume when it comes to skill sets most emphasised in early 2010s ice dance (close hold, textbook footwork). That said, teams train to suit the rules of the era they are competing in, so I'm sure G/G would have skated differently if they had started their careers a decade earlier.

For singles skaters there are universally valued areas of skating skills like deep edges and flow, but out of the pool of 'good' skaters some may be more precise/agile with their footwork, some better at generating power etc. (For example, Satoko vs Kaori, or Nathan vs Yuzuru). And then there's Patrick Chan who basically ticks every box

Just a correction : you wrote Nathan instead of Patrick.
Yes, Patrick Chan had a deeper knee bend and such smooth turns, and more precision in his steps when they were rivals; Yuzuru Hanyu had always been exceptional in skating skills for his age, but the lack of experience and practice was blatant initially! At the end of their common competition time though, his turns had already become smoother, his knee bend had always been very good, and his strength was taking speed with very little strokes, and the speed in steps too, but he would still occasionally miss a step. Since then he's kept progressing though, to feats never seen even in Ice Dance I believe? Such as the variety and difficulty of twizzles, the ability to gain speed without basic strokes, the precision in steps... Of course ice dancers have to do everything together and, although Yuzuru Hanyu is extremely precise in his programs, ice dancers must adapt to each other's abilities.

 

[Minz]

Just a correction : you wrote Nathan instead of Patrick.
Yes, Patrick Chan had a deeper knee bend and such smooth turns, and more precision in his steps when they were rivals; Yuzuru Hanyu had always been exceptional in skating skills for his age, but the lack of experience and practice was blatant initially! At the end of their common competition time though, his turns had already become smoother, his knee bend had always been very good, and his strength was taking speed with very little strokes, and the speed in steps too, but he would still occasionally miss a step. Since then he's kept progressing though, to feats never seen even in Ice Dance I believe? Such as the variety and difficulty of twizzles, the ability to gain speed without basic strokes, the precision in steps... Of course ice dancers have to do everything together and, although Yuzuru Hanyu is extremely precise in his programs, ice dancers must adapt to each other's abilities.

I think they did mean Nathan. They mentioned Patrick separately.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

And they were accurate on both counts.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I think they did mean Nathan. They mentioned Patrick separately.

Yes. I would put Patrick on a different level from Nathan and Yuzuru, who I think are comparable but strong in different areas of skating skills. This is my opinion, everyone is entitled to their own view.

Since then he's kept progressing though, to feats never seen even in Ice Dance I believe? Such as the variety and difficulty of twizzles, the ability to gain speed without basic strokes, the precision in steps... Of course ice dancers have to do everything together and, although Yuzuru Hanyu is extremely precise in his programs, ice dancers must adapt to each other's abilities.

Regarding the comparison to ice dance, see Daisuke Takahashi - one of the best at skating skills in the males singles field, outside top 10 at Worlds (which is still extremely respectable given how late he switched). Also, he had to step it up to match Kana, not the other way round. Sometimes ice dance demands skating skills seen in singles but to a much higher standard (e.g. any sign of checking* or scratching is much more severely penalised), sometimes it is more apples to oranges (e.g. keypoints in patterns). This applies to solo dance too, it's not just the partnering aspect that makes things different.

[*ETA: in twizzles, I mean!]

The competitive ice dancers on this forum can probably go into more technical detail about this if you're curious. I only do pattern dance for tests, but at least from these I can say there's no opportunity for 'basic strokes' to gain speed (watch some old compulsories to see what I mean).

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Also god-tier but in a different aspect:

Virtue & Moir - 2009 TEB CD - Golden Waltz

youtu.be

I feel like different categories of skating skills are considered more or less valuable at any one time. I think Virtue/Moir are better than Gabby/Guillaume when it comes to skill sets most emphasised in early 2010s ice dance (close hold, textbook footwork). That said, teams train to suit the rules of the era they are competing in, so I'm sure G/G would have skated differently if they had started their careers a decade earlier.

I do miss the step sequences of those eras etc vs now, and there was definitely more variety and complexity in holds even 9-10years ago. I can appreciate the modern, long held edges, open style but I just wish we had more couples doing different things. But they wouldn't be rewarded for it.

On pure skating skill levels I put gabbyn& Guime on another level (along with Hubble/Donehue). But tessa and scott were extremely complete skaters (had more complexity, better lifts, better performance imo). Even back in the day you can argue for other teams being on V/Ms level when it came to pure skating skills (davis/White with speed, flow, deep edges - yet not having the same effortless guide V/M had).

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Yes. I would put Patrick on a different level from Nathan and Yuzuru, who I think are comparable but strong in different areas of skating skills. This is my opinion, everyone is entitled to their own view.

Regarding the comparison to ice dance, see Daisuke Takahashi - one of the best at skating skills in the males singles field, outside top 10 at Worlds (which is still extremely respectable given how late he switched). Also, he had to step it up to match Kana, not the other way round. Sometimes ice dance demands skating skills seen in singles but to a much higher standard (e.g. any sign of checking* or scratching is much more severely penalised), sometimes it is more apples to oranges (e.g. keypoints in patterns). This applies to solo dance too, it's not just the partnering aspect that makes things different.

[*ETA: in twizzles, I mean!]

The competitive ice dancers on this forum can probably go into more technical detail about this if you're curious. I only do pattern dance for tests, but at least from these I can say there's no opportunity for 'basic strokes' to gain speed (watch some old compulsories to see what I mean).

Indeed everyone is entitled to their own view, or lack of it, Yuzuru Hanyu having long out-skilled Patrick Chan (in average in 16-17 but this is necessarily a subjective opinion, depending on the weight one puts in each part of Skating Skills; in every part but the depth of knee bend, in fact I find Yuzuru Hanyu's perfect for him while Patrick Chan's perfect for him, since about 2020, and he's hugely improved since 2021). I would agree to debate on Yuzuru Hanyu vs Patrick Chan, since the latter deserves so much praise, and would like to learn more on both; but do you really want to list Nathan Chen's Skating Skills deficiencies? Is it really necessary in this topic? Although I'm not a specialist and wouldn't be exhaustive, and I don't have Youtube or the ability of making GIFs, which would make the discussion rather boring. What are you at?

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I do miss the step sequences of those eras etc vs now, and there was definitely more variety and complexity in holds even 9-10years ago. I can appreciate the modern, long held edges, open style but I just wish we had more couples doing different things. But they wouldn't be rewarded for it.

On pure skating skill levels I put gabbyn& Guime on another level (along with Hubble/Donehue). But tessa and scott were extremely complete skaters (had more complexity, better lifts, better performance imo). Even back in the day you can argue for other teams being on V/Ms level when it came to pure skating skills (davis/White with speed, flow, deep edges - yet not having the same effortless guide V/M had).

Oh yeah, Hubbell/Donohue were great! A bit unlucky in that throughout their career they had V/M and Gabby/Guillaume to contend with. I'm so glad they are sticking around as coaches to pass their knowledge on.

And good point about Davis/White (btw I love their polka and finnsteps). I wonder if physique plays a slight factor in glide and power (providing you use it to advantage)? H/D, P/C, V/M are all rather tall and evenly matched while Meryl at least - and Shibs from the same era - are more petite.

but do you really want to list Nathan Chen's Skating Skills deficiencies? Is it really necessary in this topic? Although I'm not a specialist and wouldn't be exhaustive, and I don't have Youtube or the ability of making GIFs, which would make the discussion rather boring. What are you at?

No I don't, I've only been listing strengths of different skaters so far as this is a thread about good skating skills. I don't think it's necessary to go from comparing two skaters who you disagree are at the same level to tearing down one skater specifically because you think them far below. E.g. poster above regards P/C as a different level, but still complimentary about V/M's strengths - and I see his point, as he is talking about specific areas within skating skills. It also helps that I like both teams, which I am guessing is not the case for you with Nathan and Yuzuru?

Let's keep it positive. I think everyone in this thread would be happy to see videos of Yuzuru demonstrating great skating skills (e.g. I think his Worlds 2021 SP was a great illustration of power and flow).

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Oh yeah, Hubbell/Donohue were great! A bit unlucky in that throughout their career they had V/M and Gabby/Guillaume to contend with. I'm so glad they are sticking around as coaches to pass their knowledge on.

And good point about Davis/White (btw I love their polka and finnsteps). I wonder if physique plays a slight factor in glide and power (providing you use it to advantage)? H/D, P/C, V/M are all rather tall and evenly matched while Meryl at least - and Shibs from the same era - are more petite.


No I don't, I've only been listing strengths of different skaters so far as this is a thread about good skating skills. I don't think it's necessary to go from comparing two skaters who you disagree are at the same level to tearing down one skater specifically because you think them far below. E.g. poster above regards P/C as a different level, but still complimentary about V/M's strengths - and I see his point, as he is talking about specific areas within skating skills. It also helps that I like both teams, which I am guessing is not the case for you with Nathan and Yuzuru?

Let's keep it positive. I think everyone in this thread would be happy to see videos of Yuzuru demonstrating great skating skills (e.g. I think his Worlds 2021 SP was a great illustration of power and flow).

FWIW, I first mentioned Hubbell/Donohue in this thread.
Physique does not have much of a factor in glide and power btw...especially when you know how to properly do so.
As far as comparing V/M to D/W-they literally are an inch apart in height each. Virtue is 5'4, Davis 5'3, Moir 5'10/11", White 5'9 LOL so that doesn't have anything to do with it. Shibs are 5'3.5" and 5'11" respectively.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

FWIW, I first mentioned Hubbell/Donohue in this thread.
Physique does not have much of a factor in glide and power btw...especially when you know how to properly do so.
As far as comparing V/M to D/W-they literally are an inch apart in height each. Virtue is 5'4, Davis 5'3, Moir 5'8, White 5'9 LOL so that doesn't have anything to do with it. Shibs are 5'3.5" and 5'11" respectively.

Thanks for the clarification! Wow, I didn't know Alex was taller than Scott and Charlie
I wish I had been able to see these teams live when they were still competing...

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Oh yeah, Hubbell/Donohue were great! A bit unlucky in that throughout their career they had V/M and Gabby/Guillaume to contend with. I'm so glad they are sticking around as coaches to pass their knowledge on.

And good point about Davis/White (btw I love their polka and finnsteps). I wonder if physique plays a slight factor in glide and power (providing you use it to advantage)? H/D, P/C, V/M are all rather tall and evenly matched while Meryl at least - and Shibs from the same era - are more petite.


No I don't, I've only been listing strengths of different skaters so far as this is a thread about good skating skills. I don't think it's necessary to go from comparing two skaters who you disagree are at the same level to tearing down one skater specifically because you think them far below. E.g. poster above regards P/C as a different level, but still complimentary about V/M's strengths - and I see his point, as he is talking about specific areas within skating skills. It also helps that I like both teams, which I am guessing is not the case for you with Nathan and Yuzuru?

Let's keep it positive. I think everyone in this thread would be happy to see videos of Yuzuru demonstrating great skating skills (e.g. I think his Worlds 2021 SP was a great illustration of power and flow).

Please, what do you call physique when you're speaking of glide and power? Do you mean innate abilities in general? Because, much as a correct training from the beginning then practice are huge factors (which, alas, make that rather exceptional skaters like previously mentioned Alexandra Trusova, Anna Shcherbakova and Alina Zagitova could never get a good glide), being "well wired" is a must-have in Figure Skating, and I have the impression that some skaters have more of it than others. Or do you mean the overall size? I don't think it matters as much as in jumps and lifts? Or do you mean the evenness in size match?

Regarding Nathan Chen's skating skills, it is not a matter of thinking (in the meaning of believing), it's a matter of fact, in each and every category. The example you give of V/M vs P/C would fit only a PC/YH (or Jason Brown, or lately Deniss Vasiljevs maybe) debate, or you should suggesting comparing V/M or P/C with Diana Davis and Gleb Smolkin. I thank you for inviting me to embed a video showing Yuzuru Hanyu's great skating skills, I would say they all do, except the most recent ones which show his so-much-above-others skating skills. But maybe the innovations, on top of all the rest, in Introduction & Rondo Capriccioso, his Short Program for 2021-2022, may illustrate them. Warning : this is the skate where a big hole in the ice makes him pop his 4S, which was a bit traumatic for some because of their empathy for his feelings, but for those who are not so invested, it looks just like any cleanly popped jump.


Here is, not a Skating Skills analysis, but a Transitions analysis. Easier transitions don't necessarily indicate poor skating skills, because a skater with good skating skills may spare his stamina to challenge more jumps, and I would say that among the four skaters analysed in this thread, it's Shoma Uno who went farther on that respect, but not in his Short, in his Free Program. In his Short, he's sparing stamina in a more reasonable way. Nevertheless, Olympic or not, quads or not, I believe the transitions in Rondo are something never seen before, simply because I believe no other skater has the skating skills to do them all in a Short Program, and that's only part of it (the video is from All-Japan Nationals for the sake of the 4S, of course you can compare with the Olympic skate):


Particularly, without being into Physics unlike the author of the thread above, I do believe that no skater with flat edges, just correct glide, poor balance, stiff legs... could skate these steps in a program, be it quadless; even a "very basic" (at Worlds/Olympic level) set of transitions takes them so much stamina. Not even skaters with gorgeous skating skills, like Jason Brown here or Patrick Chan, because they wouldn't gain enough power in their steps to jump, even triples. But to do it like Yuzuru Hanyu, with such balance-endangering moves, such flow, effortlessness, ice-covering, etc, is simply mind-blowing.

Ah, another "first time" in this program. showing also never-seen skating skills, is his arm on the chest when he lands his 3A, though I've seen Robert Wagenhoffer landing a 2T, and lately Mone Chiba a 2A, and probably some others with less rotation jumps, with a hand on the waist.

 

[eclipse]

Ah, another "first time" in this program. showing also never-seen skating skills, is his arm on the chest when he lands his 3A, though I've seen Robert Wagenhoffer landing a 2T, and lately Mone Chiba a 2A, and probably some others with less rotation jumps, with a hand on the waist.

This is hardly a first time, a significant chunk of skaters are made to practice their jumps landing in a frame or with their arms still in even on their harder jumps because to stop that level of rotation consistently you need to learn to control your core. What he did is essentially a 1 armed version of this with his free side arm.

I do believe that no skater with flat edges, just correct glide, poor balance, stiff legs... could skate these steps in a program,

Pretty obvious, no skater mentioned in this thread has these characteristics?

Not even skaters with gorgeous skating skills, like Jason Brown here or Patrick Chan, because they wouldn't gain enough power in their steps to jump, even triples. But to do it like Yuzuru Hanyu, with such balance-endangering moves, such flow, effortlessness, ice-covering, etc, is simply mind-blowing.

This is clearly false, Jason brown and Patrick chan both have superior ice coverage and speed to Yuzuru Hanyu later in his career a characteristic which did deteriorate as it progressed whereas the two aforementioned skaters have only gotten better as their career progressed. The depth of edge between Patrick and Jason is also substantially better than Yuzuru Hanyu which can most predominantly be seen in steps because of the lack of speed he cannot hold a deep edge for a long portion of time or perform a turn off of it