Worlds: Men's FS

[GGFan]

I think there's a wide continuum between Nathan isn't artistic and that Nathan, for sure, deserves the PCS marks he got in the free skate.

I think also it's worth exploring --since we have that ability now--how judges see Nathan's from that side of things. It's interesting that the disucssion have been about THE JUDGES, when I don't think there's a universal agreement among juges either regarding Nathan's (or any skater for that matter) program componants. One judge placed him fifth in transitions (and incidently put Jason 2nd in that same category, behind Yuzuru). There's some variance that is worhty of discussion.

I guess where I differ is this very notion that only Nathan's PCS should be opened up for scrutiny. If we're going there then let's go there and let's acknowledge PCS inflation across the board for the top skaters.

 

[Mrs. P]

I guess where I differ is this very notion that only Nathan's PCS should be opened up for scrutiny. If we're going there then let's go there and let's acknowledge PCS inflation across the board for the top skaters.

My first point is that I don’t think the discussion should be that Nathan is or isn’t artistic. I also don’t think that it’s not unreasonable for people to have thoughtful disagreement with PCS scores.

Which is why I think it’s worth looking at the individual judges scores and not just Nathan, I just put him as a starting point.I think there is this back and forth of is Nathan and or any other skater artistic or not — I’m just suggesting a different means to look at it.

I was hoping for a more nuanced discussion, which maybe I can jump into when I have more than a moment. Using the example I put in my previous post, this judge ranked the following in transitions:1.) Yuzuru 2.) Jason 3.) Misha 4.) Shoma 5.) Nathan. Why did the judge go in that direction? What in the bullet point criteria did they focus on that might have influence her to give the scores she did? Could she perhaps more strict relative to the other judges? The outliers can always reveal some interesting things as well.

And if you were a judge would you be more inclined to judge this category this way. Why or why not... I think if you looked at it it would be clear that even the judges themselves aren’t unified in how they see a certain skater.

 

[el henry]

I don't understand the rush to ascribe motives (or lack thereof) to posters.

I base my opinion on what I see on the ice. I can describe the reasons for my opinions, but if someone were to say, well your opinion is only based because you feel X, or you like Y, it only makes me feel defensive. Like really? You know this about me how?

I will use Jason, since he is the skater I follow most closely. I think Jason's artistry, skating skills and spins are superior to Nathan's. Even with all the mistakes in the FP, Jason makes me feel the nuance of the program, extensions, lines, skating skills, spins. Nathan appears, to me, to get rushed and lose his posture. I don't know how else to put it. Even in this program.

That said, Nathan is a marvel at putting together a package. Jason does not have his jumping ability. At all. In any way. And Nathan has improved vastly as a performer. I can't believe he's the same skater that I couldn't even finish watching the program three years ago. And this is not backhanded praise, this is real praise. To improve that much in three years is pretty darn impressive.

It still doesn't mean he's Jason's equal in PCS. In my opinion. And it doesn't mean that I'm hating on Nathan, or throwing shade, or that I'm so blinded that I can't see his greatness.

It just means I have an opinion

 

[Mathman]

... Which is why I think it’s worth looking at the individual judges scores ...

Using the example I put in my previous post, this judge ranked the following in transitions:1.) Yuzuru 2.) Jason 3.) Misha 4.) Shoma 5.) Nathan. Why did the judge go in that direction? What in the bullet point criteria did they focus on that might have influence her to give the scores she did? Could she perhaps more strict relative to the other judges? The outliers can always reveal some interesting things as well.

One thing that I think could be examined from the protocols is which judges tend to peg the PCSs more closely or less closely to the Tech performance, relative to each other.

The scores of the Croatian judge (judge #2 in the SP, #6 in the LP) are interesting, for instance. Comparing Nathan Chen to Jason Brown, this judge came up huge for Nathan in both segments (giving him his only 10.00 -- for performance in the LP).

For Jason, she was a full point lower. In fact, in the SP her scores were

Nathan: 9.50, 9.25, 9.50, 9.50, 9.50
Jason::: 8.50, 8.25, 8.50, 8.50, 8.50

(She also buried vincent Zhou in the SP, being the only judge who gave him all 7s.).

Now if we look at this judge's score for Jason in the LP:

9.00, 8.75, 8.50, 8.75, 8.75

This judge thought that Jason's performance in the LP was better than his performance in the SP in every PCS category. Huh? What was going on in her mind? What did she see in Jason's choreography and musical interpretation in the LP that made it better than his SP? Did she appreciate the fact that at least he went for a quad instead of playing it safe?

 

[century2009]

Whether someone is artistic or musical or not is (1) pretty subjective; and (2) not the same as whether he deserves high PCS. It’s kind of silly to argue about whether someone is artistic or musical, because there’s no proof. As a former professional / highly trained ballet dancer, Oatmella may respond to things differently than I (former professional musician / highly trained singer) do. So may all of you, regardless of your backgrounds, as well as high level skaters and former champions Robin Cousins, Brian Boitano, various broadcasters, etc.

Me, personally, I love the first minute or so of Nathan’s SP. I love Yuzuru’s Ina Bauer. That’s all I’m gonna say.

No matter how these fans are arguing about it, Nathan just proved through his performance he is a complete skater and the judges, through Nathan high PCs, agree. And that is what counts and matters in the end.

For example, I will say this about some people's nonbelief of Vincent to this day. We know he has UR but people dont want to believe that he has improved, when he has. Yes, he does it sometimes but not all the time and it is not like he isnt trying to fix it. But no, all jumps must be UR right??

It is like they want to bring skaters down for the benefit of their idol when these skaters are working hard and do improve their skills.

 

[Bookseller]

One thing that I think could be examined from the protocols is which judges tend to peg the PCSs more closely or less closely to the Tech performance, relative to each other.

The scores of the Croatian judge (judge #2 in the SP, #6 in the LP) are interesting, for instance. Comparing Nathan Chen to Jason Brown, this judge came up huge for Nathan in both segments (giving him his only 10.00 -- for performance in the LP).

For Jason, she was a full point lower. In fact, in the SP her scores were

Nathan: 9.50, 9.25, 9.50, 9.50, 9.50
Jason::: 8.50, 8.25, 8.50, 8.50, 8.50

(She also buried vincent Zhou in the SP, being the only judge who gave him all 7s.).

Now if we look at this judge's score for Jason in the LP:

9.00, 8.75, 8.50, 8.75, 8.75

This judge thought that Jason's performance in the LP was better than his performance in the SP in every PCS category. Huh? What was going on in her mind? What did she see in Jason's choreography and musical interpretation in the LP that made it better than his SP? Did she appreciate the fact that at least he went for a quad instead of playing it safe?

I haven't studied the individual judges scores closely yet, but I am seeing a correlation in PCs to the tech level overall. It's an interesting question. Should the PCs be tied to tech content, making the assumption that higher tech content challenges the program components more, or should they be judged separately? It does seem to me that the gradation on the GOEs takes care of the tech difficulty by awarding more points based on the base value of the element and that the higher the base value the more difficult the element. So should that extend to the PCs? I have mixed feelings about that. The PCs are the most objective part of the overall score. I recognize that landing 4 quads well takes a lot of energy that might make it harder to be as nuanced and precise in the PCs. But PCs are different and should be looked at differently than the elements. I think most judges do that, but some don't. That might be an area that could be improved in the judging.

 

[largeman]

“How he goes in and out of his jumps”? Bourne is funny.

Yeah, she is HILARIOUS. My stomach hurts from all the laughing I’m doing.

 

[Blades of Passion]

This will be very long:

2002: you're rewriting history. We'll never know what would have happened because Plushenko messed up in the short. That made it quite easy for the judges to put Yagudin over. In the free Yagudin also followed Plushenko who'd made errors. I loved Yagudin and I was rooting for him, but it wasn't as if he had inferior content and they put him over on artistry. He landed his content while Plushenko made mistakes. This was not the victory of the artist.

Once again, Yagudin beat Plushenko at the GPF despite Plushenko jumping better in that competition. He won Euros despite being outjumped. I am not rewriting history, his programs were the most acclaimed of the season and he was winning because of that perceived superior artistry.

Yagudin at the Olympics did have inferior content to both Goebel and Plushenko. They each had an additional Quad or 3Axel over him in that LP, and Plushenko went for crazy difficult combinations. Plushenko "made mistakes" on a much higher level of content and not that big of mistakes. He tried a freaking 4Toe+3Toe+3Loop, completely unheard of before or since him. He did 3Axel+3Flip combo, also unheard of before him and only recently attempted again in the sport. In the end he landed more big ticket items than Yagudin. Also note that Yagudin was not 100% squeaky clean, as his 3Flip came down with a big lean (but he sold it well).

Nathan's program very much had a concept and parts to it, and built to an awesome choreographic sequence by Sam Chouinard. Empty in parts yes, but so were many other programs over the years and Yuzu was doing crossovers end to end at the beginning of his program as well.

NOT true, and it's something I already brought up to showcase an aspect of Yuzu's superior artistry over Nathan. Look at how Yuzu moves following his 4Loop, the way he utilizes arm and body positions and outward expression, while doing spread eagles. He is completely into the music and trying to personify its essence, with his own point of view, in a way that Nathan never is. Nathan's choreo sequence is energetic and interesting, but not soul baring or fully with the music. It's applied movement, something he was told to do by a choreographer. It doesn't flow out of him effortlessly, it's him trying to be "exciting". People suddenly trying to sell a program after all the jumps are done is a long-standing tradition and that's part of what could be seen with Nathan there.

--

Elvis had several uninspired programs. Yagudin and Plushenko got by on charm and a lot of hand movements several years. We can go back to the videos of Dick Button calling them out. Joubert won on the strength of his first mark and some Yagudin-wanna-be footwork. Even someone like Kurt repeated his 1989 program and used his charm and musicality to pull it off.

Here you ignore the superior qualities shown in those performances, things that deserve to score points in PCS. Charm, hand movements, musicality -- this is part of what I am talking about. They were INTO the performance and program for the whole duration, in a way that Nathan isn't.

Elvis in his 1995 performance had more shortcomings, as I already talked about, but his 1994 Bruce Lee program displays much better full commitment to an overall performance and choreographic statement than what Nathan did. He was moving his body meaningfully and conveying a concept and personal expression throughout. Nathan generally does not.

Joubert did not win Worlds under 6.0 (nor did he ever win a LP at Worlds), but while we're there, his career-best performance in 2004 did display a more complete choreographic concept and musical personification. He was generally in-character and portraying his own personal interests and vision, TO the music. The guy recreated an exact scene from the The Matrix with his own movement, creating a body shape and movement that was unique and immediately evoked something to the audience. He similarly showed emotional sensitivity and conveyed specific ideas in his slow sections, first of waking up to a new reality and then the struggle of death surrounding you. That is real choreography and interpretation.

Nathan is not an outlier despite your attempts to make that case. Just because you do not enjoy him as much as some of us do does not mean that he is somehow inferior or less than past World Champions.

His qualities of performance, choreography, interpretation are less than past World Champions, to me. Don't try to twist the argument as someone saying his entire skating is inferior. The discussion is about the artistic and performing aspects, and how they should be scored.

I guess where I differ is this very notion that only Nathan's PCS should be opened up for scrutiny. If we're going there then let's go there and let's acknowledge PCS inflation across the board for the top skaters.

There is no notion that only Nathan's PCS should be scrutinized, and I have constantly talked about PCS inflation and how it's being judged incorrectly in general. It seems like you are trying to sidestep the very real reasoning and examples of why Hanyu should be scored significantly higher on PCS. Both of them being overscored is irrelevant to what the actual scoring differential should be.

Everyone acknowledges the growth in his maturity and presentation. No one has said this is akin to Tim Goebel winning worlds.

Again, "growth" does not mean 94 PCS is deserved or that his PCS should be close to Hanyu's (or whoever else shows significantly better quality).

Speaking of Goebel, his Olympic performance shows better choreography and interpretation than Nathan's program. From the very start of the program, with the cheery attitude and the swivels into the opening 3Lutz, the feeling of "An American in Paris" is being brought forth. The transitions in Goebel's program all actually have purpose to the music and overall concept, and the jumps and steps are more with the music. Throughout that program were moments of laid-back joy and fun, not only in planned movement but also in Goebel's expression and body language. So yet again, we see how these qualities are being lost, how even a performer like Goebel was able to reach a peak of showing more personality and full choreographic concept than what is displayed in Nathan's program.

And compared to Nathan's 2018 skating, which did unfortunately win a World Title, Goebel at 2002 Olympics was on a whole different planet. Goebel didn't even win a world medal until that American in Paris program, and the judges didn't score him high on presentation, so let's not use Goebel as the example of someone's presentation being horrifyingly overrated. The real low bar for lack of artistry at the top of a World podium, and PCS being overinflated, is Nathan last year.

This is not said to disparage Nathan himself, btw. This is about the state of the sport and the judging and the programs. Maybe he will continue to improve more on the presentation and artistry. However, because of the rules and the judging, it seems unlikely that these aspects of his skating will receive enough attention. I do not like seeing people be taken in a wrong direction and their potential never fulfilled. And I'm not going to sit around listening to superficial (or blatantly wrong) crap that is meant to try and inflate what Nathan is actually doing.

--

Just because Chen doesnt pick classical/instrumental songs like very much a lot of skaters, does not make Chen less artistic. Chen is very unique that he has a modern approach to his music and interpretation, bringing something different.

Nobody has said this. Another example of a poster using a straw-man. Nathan's LP musical selection was very welcome to me, but his actual artistry is not "unique", his movement shows hardly anything "modern" or trying to showcase a unique point of view. Here is an example, using Nathan's LP music, of a performer who actually is trying to do something like you are talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm98afryPf4

That is free-form dance rather than competitive ice skating, but the overall artistic comparison is relevant. This shows a much more fully considered choreographic concept than what Nathan is doing. I don't think this dance is even particularly great interpretation of the music, but the commitment to showing choreography is definitely greater. A far, far more interesting competitive ice skating program could have been created to this music.

I think this music is perfect for skating actually! There is both emotion and range, it is deeply introspective and quite elegiac, like a memory or vision of something hopeful that was lost or never came to be, but then it also moves into something faster and harsher. The music could be expressed beautifully and perhaps better than in dance, with the glide and flow that skating provides for the slower part, and then very sharp movements for the more jagged part. We literally cut the ice as we skate and the look of a skate doing certain movements is something that "land" dance can not achieve.

The amount of longing and expression of life being lived in this music should bring someone nearly to tears, if a skating program and performance had that amount of refinement and emotion being poured into it. Nathan does not. He's nowhere close. We are all being robbed of seeing this, as skaters are no longer trying to achieve this level of artistry, and the judges marks are allowing them to remain complacent.

 

[GGFan]

BoP I'm not going to respond to this because you're not even conceding simple things that anyone can check on by doing google searches.

Plushenko was in 4th after the short program. And this was 6.0 where mistakes were a huge deal. He needed to beat Yagudin and have someone else beat Yagudin as well. He made mistakes. During Yagudin's program Scott Hamilton talks about him watering down his long program because he knew he just needed to go clean. This whole narrative about Yagudin being an artist that beat the athletes is not true.

The fact that you insist on making up a narrative about those Olympics just shows me that there's an axe to grind here. You're rewriting history for your purposes, but fortunately it does not change anything. Nathan is still a 2-time World Champion.

ETA: I just noticed that you're even extolling the virtues of Tim Goebel to put Nathan down. You're trying so hard. . . and it's not working.

 

[moriel]

For me its kinda simple here. Nathan skated his best.
Hanyu clearly did not skate his best. He didn't look well, he didnt perform, he just skated through it. Since he looked somewhat like a zombie in K&C, and because of all the injury stuff, it all makes sense.
If he skated like he skated Seimei at GPF, sure he would have deserved to win here. But he didn't.

 

[oatmella]

Seems that we have moved past the point of healthy discussion

 

[alexaa]

There seems little point in arguing, and I posted those quotes not to ‘pump up his artistry’ but more to illustrate he is not as inartistic as some claim.

And I am hardly the only one with a ballet background who is a fan of Nathan. Isabella Boylston, principal dancer with ABT (and also has appeared a guest artist all over the world, including at the Mariinsky) left a comment on his IG that she is a big fan ... and there are others.

I will address his hands - his ballet training is very obvious in the way that he holds and shapes his hands and fingers. He also has nice and fluid articulation of his wrists. Hands act as an extension of the arms, maintaining the line, and should appear natural. Dramatic articulation of the hands with strong or exaggerated gestures, and broken wrists - is not balletic (at least classical ballet)

Of course you are not the only one, I remembered reading at least 2 comments from 2 Ballet schools in one of his posts gushing about his worlds performance several days ago. Glad to know Isabella Boylston is also a fan. Phillip Mills wrote about his skills in his blogs.

As to Shae-Lynn, she spent some time at Yale with Nathan and was in Lakewood last December, she knows what he is capable of doing much better than most of people who just watched Nathan’s competition performances. Nathan did have good flow out in some practice clips, as well as some crazy combos like 4t3t3lo, 4T+1eu+3S,4t3t3t. He had successful run through of his long program with 4s, and RAF even mentioned he can had done 4lo. Just because he didn’t deliver something in competition doesn’t mean he didn’t succeed in doing it in practice, which Raf and Shae-Lynn probably seen lot when Nathan was with them.

 

[shine]

Hanyu would showcase better movement if he wasn't bogged down by the footwork/spin rules and overall busywork-obsessed choreography. Purely in terms of performance, I think he's already on the same level of ability, and in terms of his interpretation I think so too, when it's actually allowed to be showcased. His 2011-2012 LP displays this best, being able to transition effortlessly between vulnerable delicacy and volcanic intensity.

So we are talking about what they COULD be now? Well, Chen would showcase better movement if he wasn't bogged down by quads. Chen at his artistic best is a better artistic skater than Hanyu--who always appeared rather one-dimensional to me whose interpretation consisted primarily of hitting the strong beats while skating to rather simplistic music--carrying real nuances, sensitivity, layers and richness in the actual phrasing and interpretation of music. Just as an example, in terms of depth of interpretation and nuances, Nathan's Chopin Concerto No. 1 from 2015 as a 15-year-old beats Yuzuru's Chopin Ballade No. 1 any day, and Yuzuru's R&J doesn't even come anywhere close artistically to his Ballade No. 1.

 

[Mrs. P]

One thing that I think could be examined from the protocols is which judges tend to peg the PCSs more closely or less closely to the Tech performance, relative to each other.

The scores of the Croatian judge (judge #2 in the SP, #6 in the LP) are interesting, for instance. Comparing Nathan Chen to Jason Brown, this judge came up huge for Nathan in both segments (giving him his only 10.00 -- for performance in the LP).

For Jason, she was a full point lower. In fact, in the SP her scores were

Nathan: 9.50, 9.25, 9.50, 9.50, 9.50
Jason::: 8.50, 8.25, 8.50, 8.50, 8.50

(She also buried vincent Zhou in the SP, being the only judge who gave him all 7s.).

Now if we look at this judge's score for Jason in the LP:

9.00, 8.75, 8.50, 8.75, 8.75

This judge thought that Jason's performance in the LP was better than his performance in the SP in every PCS category. Huh? What was going on in her mind? What did she see in Jason's choreography and musical interpretation in the LP that made it better than his SP? Did she appreciate the fact that at least he went for a quad instead of playing it safe?

The other interesting thing about the Croatian judge is that she ended up ranking Jason 4th in Skating Skills and Transitions but 8th in the other three categories. And her total PCS score put Jason in 9th.

If you look at Nathan's scores for the FS
9.75 9.75 10 9.75 9.75 (98.00)
Not only did rank Nathan first among all the competitions, she also gave him the highest PCS and it was several points higher than the rest of the judging panel.

I don't think it's that she scored Jason higher, but for whatever reason, she scored everybody higher.

Was she in a better mood? Did she feel the free skates were an improvement from the short program as a whole? Not sure.

Actually, outside of a few performances, the free skates were a notable improvement -- on the whole the field actually did pretty well and really when you think about it we didn't see like any major meltdowns like last year. There were skaters who underperformed, but on the whole the field did well here.

Consider: The top 15 free skates at worlds last year: Scores ranged from 148.66 to 219.46.

This year, the 19th place free skate actually had a higher score than one that ranked 15th last year. On the whole, the men's field did quite well!

I haven't studied the individual judges scores closely yet, but I am seeing a correlation in PCs to the tech level overall. It's an interesting question. Should the PCs be tied to tech content, making the assumption that higher tech content challenges the program components more, or should they be judged separately? It does seem to me that the gradation on the GOEs takes care of the tech difficulty by awarding more points based on the base value of the element and that the higher the base value the more difficult the element. So should that extend to the PCs? I have mixed feelings about that. The PCs are the most objective part of the overall score. I recognize that landing 4 quads well takes a lot of energy that might make it harder to be as nuanced and precise in the PCs. But PCs are different and should be looked at differently than the elements. I think most judges do that, but some don't. That might be an area that could be improved in the judging.

I think what makes it difficult is that quads can enhance the program as a whole. Having seen Nathan nail his FS at a few competitions -- there is a definitely WOW factor and perhaps that makes it influential on some of the PCS components, such as performance and choreography.

And to an extent, you can attribute good skating skills to hitting quads. I remember Jason talking about how Tracy puts a lot of emphasis on using skating skills and tries to encourage her students to use those skills to help boost their ability to jump. When you think about some beautiful landings of some of the Japanese skaters, it's because of the soft knees they have, which is a quality of someone with good skating skills.

Honestly, I know there's a frustration that a skater like Jason (I have it sometimes, lol) doesn't get higher PCS scores, but the fact he gets the PCS he does get in spite of not having the huge technical content is actually a testament of how good he is outside of the big jumps. It's a big reason why he's even a factor despite the quad not being there. You've seen him live -- he does have a way of commanding the ice outside of jumps (and most of his jumps are pretty solid and the 3A's gotten a lot better, it's kinda sad he reverted to bad habits in the FS here) and basically he has an ability to articulate to judges that he deserve those 8s and 9s for the PCS categories without the "wow" big jumps.

 

[Mathman]

But PCs are different and should be looked at differently than the elements. I think most judges do that, but some don't. That might be an area that could be improved in the judging.

My impression is that judges generally have no problem with factoring in the difficulty and quality of the elements with the program components. There has to be a huge discrepancy, as in the case of Jason Brown, before we see much meaningful separation.

It could also occur for a skater like Shoma Uno who presents a high technical content and outstanding presentation. If he falls a couple of times this will reduce his tech but probably not his components much.

Whether this should be the case, to me that is a different question altogether (and one that I do not pretend to any expertise about). In any endeavor there are the rules, then there are the unwritten rules behind the official rules, then there are the shadow rules about when you can ignore the rules and when you can't, etc.

For me, it is hard enough to figure out what is actually going on with the judging, much less to decide how it ought to be. (But plenty of posters here rise to that challenge, so my two cents are not missed. )

 

[GGFan]

My impression is that judges generally have no problem with factoring in the difficulty and quality of the elements with the program components. There has to be a huge discrepancy, as in the case of Jason Brown, before we see much meaningful separation.

It could also occur for a skater like Shoma Uno who presents a high technical content and outstanding presentation. If he falls a couple of times this will reduce his tech but probably not his components much.

Whether this should be the case, to me that is a different question altogether (and one that I do not pretend to any expertise about). In any endeavor there are the rules, then there are the unwritten rules behind the official rules, then there are the shadow rules about when you can ignore the rules and when you can't, etc.

For me, it is hard enough to figure out what is actually going on with the judging, much less to decide how it ought to be. (But plenty of posters here rise to that challenge, so my two cents are not missed. )

You know that at the end of the when we really get down to it I'm all about 6.0 in the sense that there was no hiding behind the math. Under that system you knew that the placements were an opinion and then you could just argue it out with your friends.

I completely accept that the IJS has been better for the skaters in terms of providing them feedback, but it's a lot of complication for what often comes down to close judgment calls anyway. At the end of the day I do not believe that human beings are equipped to do everything judges are required to do under the current system, but hopefully technology will assist in some of these tasks in the future.

 

[GGFan]

Same. No one was trying to take away Chen's world championship; citing someone's extolment of the subject under discussion without context and without reasoning of your own isn't the assertion you seem to believe it is. I liked some of your earlier responses, but recently you seem to be approaching this as a mere battle to be won for the honour for your preferred skater, and it shows in your emotional appeals.

Hello. Welcome to the board. I hope you enjoy your time here.

 

[Mrs. P]

So looking into individual judges further, the one skater that had a lot of variance on was Vincent Zhou. His PCS scores ranged from 82 to 91, that's a 9 point difference. [edited cause math]

The Israel judge put him 11th among all the men in the free skate. Speaking of the Croatian judge, Vincent got the highest PCS from that judge (91.00) and that was 3rd among all the skaters. The Turkish judge also put him in 3rd with a PCS score of 90.

Another skater who had a lot of variance was Kevin Aymoz of France. HIs PCS ranged from 79 to 87, an 8 point difference. The Turkish judge had him as high as 6th in PCS among all skaters while the Croatian judge, who scored him in 79, put him in 14th among the men.

So again "THE JUDGES" is a bit of a misnomer considering that there is such a wide gap in scores within a single skater. Yes, the "high-low" throw out is expected to balance it out, but the problem is when you have, as you saw with both Kevin and Vincent, multiple judges scoring on the low and high end, which can influence the final PCS score.

 

[GGFan]

So looking into individual judges further, the one skater that had a lot of variance on was Vincent Zhou. His PCS scores ranged from 82 to 91, that's a 7 point difference.

The Israel judge put him 11th among all the men in the free skate. Speaking of the Croatian judge, Vincent got the highest PCS from that judge (91.00) and that was 3rd among all the skaters. The Turkish judge also put him in 3rd with a PCS score of 90.

Another skater who had a lot of variance was Kevin Aymoz of France. HIs PCS ranged from 79 to 87, an 8 point difference. The Turkish judge had him as high as 6th in PCS among all skaters while the Croatian judge, who scored him in 79, put him in 14th among the men.

So again "THE JUDGES" is a bit of a misnomer considering that there is such a wide gap in scores. Yes, the "high-low" throw out is expected to balance it out, but the problem is when you have, as you saw with both Kevin and Vincent, multiple judges scoring on the low and high end, which can influence the final PCS score.

I've been thinking about your posts and I wonder if this is a PCS is issue or a legitimate difference of opinion? For example with Kevin Aymoz I can see myself giving him high PCS because I really value his commitment to the music. His entire body commits to the program.

On the other hand I can see someone legitimately arguing that by their standards his bent over posture and some of his "awkward" moves are not effective. I don't know how the math works out, but I think both the high and the low could be defensible in this case.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Yagudin and Plushenko got by on charm and a lot of hand movements several years. We can go back to the videos of Dick Button calling them out.

So off topic it's not funny, but that always irritated me in Plushy's case when Dick would start in on the arm movements...Like, I respect you, Dick, but it got beyond a joke sometimes. Incidentally having watched Dick's skating on YouTube...well, let's say his arms were like two wooden planks, so I dunno he doesn't sound like the go-to-guy for judgement on that. Especially when one considers if you look at photos of Plushy mid-arm "wave" he's always perfectly posed right down to his fingertips, work of art if you ask me.

Don't diss what you didn't have, Dick

On topic...I was very impressed by Nathan! After Yuzu's incredible skate I wasn't sure he could do it, but he rose to the pressure and put on an amazing performance! He's grown a lot since the Olympics (as a person, I mean, not sure if he's grown in height or anything) and after such a disappointment there I was really happy for him!

Although...Yuzu still should have got way more points for that 4T-3A, that was insane!