Worlds: Men's FS

[oatmella]

Here are some random observations I noticed during the men’s FS.... if any of you can help me out with answers:

4- Why was Shoma’s coach Mihoko fanning herself constantly in the K&C during both the SP and the FS?? I mean it’s in an ice arena.....was she having hot flashes ??? Lol....And where was Machiko(the main coach)? I was happy to see her with Shoma at the nationals, and I get it she may not wish to travel internationally as frequent but Worlds was in Japan. Just thought it would be nice for Shoma to have her there too. But I love seeing Mihoko with Shoma....she seems like such a lovely lady. But again, why was she fanning herself constantly. Lol.

5- I noticed so many of the audience with their hands clutched together while Yuzuru skated.... did anyone else?

4- The arena was quite hot - seems far warmer than is usual.

5 - I noticed this too.

 

[Blades of Passion]

We all know you have a different definition of rotation than what the ISU is actually applying

Not really. They are supposed to look at where takeoff starts. If you do actually look at that, as I already said, then you see the jump starts before the skate is lined up to the back board and then lands perpendicular to the board.

It doesn't matter how minimal or not minimal his prerotation was. That is absolutely negligible.

No it isn't. More callers are looking for excessive pre-rotation now (not standardized well enough, but still) and we have seen jumps getting called underrotated because of it. While it's true they don't yet give any special consideration for jumps with significantly less pre-rotation than the standard 1/2 turn, that's beside the point with Hanyu's 4S; I was just talking about how much quicker he starts his takeoff after the 3-turn, and confirming how he doesn't spin around the takeoff any excessive amount.

Chen's 4F (which I'd have given a +2)

That was 0 GOE element. Forward landing that is unable to be held before he can get his back straight does not deserve bonus points (notice how Hanyu actually does get his back straight on Quad Sal despite the other landing issues). This crap is why the scores are rarely accurate. Nathan's quads in general tend to land forward on the blade and not have a really strong landing position or great flow out; most of his jumps are like that actually. He also doesn't cover much distance on his Quad Toe and the rotation is never completed entirely in the air, which again can be said of most his jumps. His GOE's are too high.

 

[GGFan]

PCS scoring is such an unbelievable joke. Hanyu is less than 1 point ahead of Chen there, it's just worthless. The artistry essentially counts for nothing at all and Hanyu is on a different level with his use of limbs, refinement of positions, intent of movement, and outward expression. Not to mention his basic skating across the ice. The GOE's are not being properly applied either and also the base values themselves are inaccurate, as Hanyu's 4Toe+3Axel sequence should be worth much more points than it currently is.

Hanyu won this Long Program. He went for the same number of Quads as Chen, yes slightly less difficult ones and slightly messing up one of them (the < call was wrong - he was far enough around, it was just too low of a landing), but he had an additional Triple Axel in the program over Chen...which the scoring system did not properly credit. Chen only should have been slightly ahead technically and Hanyu's second mark should have easily exceeded the gap.

Be careful with this. Yuzu has lovely flow but there are several problems with his artistry. He looks down a lot, he has bad posture, etc. I love him to death, but let's stop with this Yuzu is the 10 of PCS and everyone is below. He does not have anything near the lines or extension of a Guillaume Cizeron.

ETA: And no one can tell me the Yuzu had well constructed programs this year. Chopin and Seimei make these look like footnotes,

 

[Blades of Passion]

I didn't say Yuzu deserved 10's. He was significantly better though. Chen mid 8's and Yuzu low 9's would have been good. Like a 6 point differential.

 

[GGFan]

I didn't say Yuzu deserved 10's. He was significantly better though. Chen mid 8's and Yuzu low 9's would have been good. Like a 6 point differential.

That helps me get a better sense of the numbers. I don't mind there being that kind of differential between them.

 

[Mathman]

(Hanyu) does not have anything near the lines or extension of a Guillaume Cizeron.

Well ... Cizeron is a dancer (a dancer among dancers.) No surprise that he would have a dancer's carriage, compared to a single's skater.

And no one can tell me the Yuzu had well constructed programs this year. Chopin and Seimei make these look like footnotes,

True. But that's sort of like saying that Beethoven's 7th and 8th symphonies are not equal to his 5th and 9th.

That helps me get a better sense of the numbers.

By the way, the men's LP is the easiest (because of the factoring) to understand. If you get 8.50s, then your total PCS is 85. If you get 9.25s across the board, that's 92.5.

 

[lzxnl]

^ I think something like 4T+4T, solo quad, 3A+3T, 3A, 3Lz+3Lo, 3F+2Lo+2T, 3S would be hard to beat. Plus, if you got past that first element the rest of the program piles up points without being insanely difficult.

Count how many combos you have there.

For your scenario, you could have your skater do a 3F-Eu-3S and have a solo 3Lo. The advantage of a 4T in combination is the lack of need to double a 3T to make up the three combinations. For Yuzuru, he could incorporate a 4T-4T as
4Lz
4Lo
4T-4T
4S
3Lo
3F-3T
3A-Eu-3S

In which I am making the dangerous assumption that Yuzuru keeps his word and gets his 4Lz back.

Nathan has that many quads to play with, so layouts are easy to formulate.
4Lz
4T-4T
4F
3A
4S/Lo
3A+3T
3Lz+Eu+3F
for instance. A comboed 4T essentially allows him to do a 3A instead of a 3T.

 

[shine]

The only two categories of PCS that Yuzuru has a clear edge over Nathan are SS and TR. I really don't see how he's so much better at interpretation and performance. His program is also not artistically special or orginal. I think with him people often mistaken his sheer technical brilliance for artistry--and by technical I don't mean just jumps but rather how perfectly he's able to execute every element and blends them seamlessly with his great skating skills--which I disagree with.

 

[Mathman]

4Lz
4Lo
4T-4T
4S
3Lo
3F-3T
3A-Eu-3S
----------------
4Lz
4T-4T
4F
3A
4S/Lo
3A+3T
3Lz+Eu+3F

To change gears for a minute, these layouts are making me think about whether Jason Brown would really benefit by getting his quad Salchow. I know he wants it for his own satisfaction, but in terms of results a 4S would still put him 20 points behind the very top guys in terms of base value, and well behind quite a few others. Suppose he did something like

3A
3A+3T
3Lz
3Lz+2T (safety valve -- put a 3T here if he missed his Axel combo)
3F+Eu+3S
3Lo
2A

OK, people would say, Who is this, Lysacek in 2010? Still, to replace the 2A with a 4S would gain only 6 points or so. Instead he could concentrate on making his triple Axels consistent and making up the difference in GOE (along with PCS). It seems like the quad Sal is high risk, not much reward.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The only two categories of PCS that Yuzuru has a clear edge over Nathan are SS and TR. I really don't see how he's so much better at interpretation and performance. His program is also not artistically special or orginal.

Highly disagree, Hanyu moves much better to the music than Nathan, shows better usage of arms (and whole body), more outward expression, more facial expression, better carriage, and a more developed style. Look at his sequence of movements after his opening 4Loop for example. The way he moves his arms while doing multiple spread eagles, how it ripples all the way through his hands, holding the positions clearly with interesting angles of the body, staring intently while doing so. He is very connected and giving a tailor-made expression to the music.

The same thing can be seen after his first spin of the program, the way he moves directly to the phrasing of the music, using nuances of body movement to convey feeling. Going into the footwork and in the footwork itself, you can see him trying to create much more distinct shapes and sequences of movement than what Nathan does. Now unfortunately Hanyu, like everyone else, is bogged down by how ridiculous the footwork rules are. So there are some movements in the steps that are there only to hit the level. The sequence could be more musical at some points, but Hanyu is doing more than Nathan to infuse it with meaning and to characterize the music.

As the program goes on, his intensity ramps up and reaches heights that Nathan has not shown himself capable of. Hanyu sells the elements more, taking the time to make each one important in the program, giving them their own moment beyond just the technical effort itself. Going back to that first spin, it can also be seen how more attention is given to using the limbs to create specific shapes, of the spin flowing with intent from one position to the next.

I don't think this LP is one of his absolute best programs, but it was still a good one, with much excitement to it, and Hanyu is still considerably ahead of the field. It's more difficult than ever for these guys to have really great programs though; 30 seconds have been lost but they need to keep all of the hardest jump elements and conform to the ridiculous footwork rules and all of the spin requirements. I do feel though that Hanyu's SP was not as artistically strong as his LP this year. There's a mysterious, mystical, and often sorrowful quality to that music and the program didn't capture it well enough. Although just in terms of executing body movements, Hanyu's qualities still poked through. I would say Nathan's SP was better as a program itself this year, but Nathan is sloppier. When you have faster, upbeat music then sometimes the sloppiness can be hidden better, but you can see plenty of areas where he could extend better and move his feet better and utilize his body more effectively.

 

[ElSoteroLoco]

Thanks for the answers so far but I don’t believe anyone has answered why the president of jsf was there. I mean , that country’s main star was participating ::::he should have been there. I’m not a yuzo fan-atic but I respect what he has done and accomplished::::...I’m American and I’m mad that NBC didn’t have media there to interview Nathan and Vincent ::::after all, they were medalists.::::I am not biased. It’s about deserved respect:

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Not really. They are supposed to look at where takeoff starts. If you do actually look at that, as I already said, then you see the jump starts before the skate is lined up to the back board and then lands perpendicular to the board.

No it isn't. More callers are looking for excessive pre-rotation now (not standardized well enough, but still) and we have seen jumps getting called underrotated because of it. While it's true they don't yet give any special consideration for jumps with significantly less pre-rotation than the standard 1/2 turn, that's beside the point with Hanyu's 4S; I was just talking about how much quicker he starts his takeoff after the 3-turn, and confirming how he doesn't spin around the takeoff any excessive amount.

That was 0 GOE element. Forward landing that is unable to be held before he can get his back straight does not deserve bonus points (notice how Hanyu actually does get his back straight on Quad Sal despite the other landing issues). This crap is why the scores are rarely accurate. Nathan's quads in general tend to land forward on the blade and not have a really strong landing position or great flow out; most of his jumps are like that actually. He also doesn't cover much distance on his Quad Toe and the rotation is never completed entirely in the air, which again can be said of most his jumps. His GOE's are too high.

Where in the rules does it say judges are supposed to look at where takeoff starts when determining if an insufficiently can be compensated for? The salchow is obviously not pre-rotated to a degree which it's considered a cheated takeoff so no <<. But on the landing he lands with a quarter if not more to go. If you're acknowledging that the landing had a quarter or more then you acknowledge that the < call was correct because the minimal pre-rotation is absolutely negligible. A lack of pre rotation does not compensate for an under rotation on the landing . Saying strong lack of
Pre-rotation makes up for under rotation on the landing is like saying "that biellmann had better extension than I've ever seen -- so I'll just ignore the fact that it wasn't centred".

It's also odd for you to acknowledge Chen had a forward landing position on his 4F and drop his GOE to a 0, but in the next breath dismiss Hanyu's way sloppier landing position and absolve it from appropriate GOE reduction. Chen's 4F (cleanly rotated) with a bit of a scratch on the landing, and a bit of a lean forward on the landing is definitely more than +2 GOE better than Hanyu's 4S< with a UR, low landing with a more severe lean forward that almost made him touch his right hand down on the landing (and arguably a lean in the air too), scratchy toe on the landing, and foot down. But hey... you do you, boo.

 

[ElSoteroLoco]

I meant why the president of JSF was NOT there. Lol

 

[GGFan]

Well ... Cizeron is a dancer (a dancer among dancers.) No surprise that he would have a dancer's carriage, compared to a single's skater.



True. But that's sort of like saying that Beethoven's 7th and 8th symphonies are not equal to his 5th and 9th.



By the way, the men's LP is the easiest (because of the factoring) to understand. If you get 8.50s, then your total PCS is 85. If you get 9.25s across the board, that's 92.5.

I think my basic point is that Yuzu is not the king of artistry. Guillaume was just one example but there are many single men that have better posture, lines, etc. We can go from Curry to Cousins to folks like Buttle or even Kolyada today who all do it much better. Yuzu is wonderful in many ways, but I think the narrative gets out of hand. Yuzu goes through whole swaths of programs hunched, with eyes down, etc. We could also get into his questionable taste in music that undersells his skating. This is not meant to crucify him, but to keep things realistic.

I was debunking the narrative of Yuzu as an artist and Nathan as just a jumper. I don't mind a presentation of facts--Yuzu using more difficult entrances for jumps like his axel for example, but just painting with broad strokes here is inaccurate.

 

[Interspectator]

--This just highlights how different people view artistry, and what the judges think of these skills in regards to PCS scoring seems completely removed from that.

For example, I would not put Kolyada's interpretation of music or over-all artistry above Yuzuru's. But his Skating skills, posture and technique are among the top guys -and in posture he beats everyone.
Musical selection isn't even part of judging at all. So though I love some music choices and hate others, it doesn't have a bearing on how programs are scored.

In the end, I would like the judges to use their own handbook to judge and apply points in PCS and TES.

What the judges score their top skaters really sets the tone for how the rest of the field will try to structure their programs for the next season.

When they indicate that it's ok to ignore various PCS bullets (skating skills, quality transitions, program construction etc.) as long as the difficult quads are completed, then that's what skaters are going to do.
When they indicate that PCS will be awarded as a by-product of TES, then skaters will work on what gives them solid points without having to depend on the whims of what a judge may 'like'.
-All this to the detriment of the balance of the sport.

However, if ISU truly thinks figure skating is better off as a jumps-centric sport, then they should make it clear in a memo or something. -At least then the skaters will know for sure that all they need is as many clean quads as possible.

I will use Hanyu's SP as an example (as he is my favorite, and I won't be accused of being critical for the sake of it)
At the beginning of the season, he said he'd focus on just the enjoyment of skating, and constructed his programs to suit the music, all jumps in the front, spins and steps at the back. At the autumn classic, though he was not in the best condition, the program flowed seamlessly. The music really did call for the jumps to match the cadence of his chosen music, the steps at the end were a super highlight and it all felt right.

However, due to Yuzu being very competitive, after studying his scores for this competition, he decided that this kind of approach would lose him too many points. The next time we saw the SP, the music had been cut different, a jump was moved to the second half, the final step sequence was now not a perfect fit. Still, it's quite a good program. And I absolutely loved it when he skated it clean at Helsinki and COR. It's one of my favorite programs. But it can't be denied that it would have been even better if he had not wanted to make the most of the TES half of point system and changed things around. -However, he has the highest scores in skating for his SP. The judges give no indication that the remastered SP is in any way inferior to the original. -This is just anecdotal, because Yuzu hadn't skated the original SP truly clean. But this happens all the time across the sport, and I'm not sure if it's a flaw or a feature in judging.

Nathan's programs also often look more nuanced, have more transitions and better pacing on their debut than when he gets his highest PCS scores for them usually at the end of the season. -He gets more quads in, but the program has suffered.

To go beyond these examples, the inconsistencies in the judging can build up to ruin the sport for the audience but most importantly for the skaters who are training to win or to compete when GOEs, PCS and TES are granted for ANYTHING OTHER than what is written in the rulebook. When I see comments or find my self making suppositions like TES=PCS boost, or Consistency boost or Federation boost, or anything else that isn't codified, it means that there's something wrong in the way the scores are being applied.

As a fan, I can say 'I don't care that this program lacks transitions, I love it anyway!' But judges need to actually look and score it by the book.

 

[GGFan]

--This just highlights how different people view artistry, and what the judges think of these skills in regards to PCS scoring seems completely removed from that.

For example, I would not put Kolyada's interpretation of music or over-all artistry above Yuzuru's. But his Skating skills, posture and technique are among the top guys -and in posture he beats everyone.
Musical selection isn't even part of judging at all. So though I love some music choices and hate others, it doesn't have a bearing on how programs are scored.

In the end, I would like the judges to use their own handbook to judge and apply points in PCS.

I just want to clarify that I was only talking about Misha's posture and lines.

In terms of music I just meant that some music choices highlight skating better than others. It is not a part of the scoring explicitly but subjectively it impacts how the program is viewed.

Personally I feel like artistry is something that can be achieved in many ways. Kevin Aymoz's posture, e.g, does not bother me nearly as much as it should because he uses interesting moves and he really gets into his music. I don't think either Nathan or Yuzu are slouches in the artistry department. One thing to say that PCS should be scored more accurately and I have no problem with Yuzu scoring higher than Nathan, but it's another to make Nathan sound like he's a Ryan Bradley artistry wise (lovely guy but not an artist in the least).

 

[TontoK]

To change gears for a minute, these layouts are making me think about whether Jason Brown would really benefit by getting his quad Salchow. I know he wants it for his own satisfaction, but in terms of results a 4S would still put him 20 points behind the very top guys in terms of base value, and well behind quite a few others. Suppose he did something like

3A
3A+3T
3Lz
3Lz+2T (safety valve -- put a 3T here if he missed his Axel combo)
3F+Eu+3S
3Lo
2A

OK, people would say, Who is this, Lysacek in 2010? Still, to replace the 2A with a 4S would gain only 6 points or so. Instead he could concentrate on making his triple Axels consistent and making up the difference in GOE (along with PCS). It seems like the quad Sal is high risk, not much reward.

If, at this point, Jason has hopes of being a World medalist, the people who are surrounding him are doing him a great disservice.

In terms of jump difficulty, the sport has passed him by. Even a Quad Sal is not going to make a significant change in the score, when compared to the four being done by the top men (plus two in the SP). Next year the issues will get worse for him, as I can't imagine the very best men will still limit themselves to 4 quads - and there will be even more men doing more quads.

Sure, he might be able to hang close in the SP, like he did here, and sincere congrats for that, but in the LP, the other skaters have so many more chances to rack up big points.

My point is that he has to set his own goals for his skating, in light of what he does well and enjoys. If that goal is to land a quad, then by all means, he should pursue it. If his goal is to thrill the crowds and deliver artistically relevant programs, that's what he needs to do.

 

[Mrs. P]

If, at this point, Jason has hopes of being a World medalist, the people who are surrounding him are doing him a great disservice.

In terms of jump difficulty, the sport has passed him by. Even a Quad Sal is not going to make a significant change in the score, when compared to the four being done by the top men (plus two in the SP). Next year the issues will get worse for him, as I can't imagine the very best men will still limit themselves to 4 quads - and there will be even more men doing more quads.

Sure, he might be able to hang close in the SP, like he did here, and sincere congrats for that, but in the LP, the other skaters have so many more chances to rack up big points.

My point is that he has to set his own goals for his skating, in light of what he does well and enjoys. If that goal is to land a quad, then by all means, he should pursue it. If his goal is to thrill the crowds and deliver artistically relevant programs, that's what he needs to do.

Why would he switch coaches, and move to Toronto if he doesn't have goals? Just because he doesn't state them doesn't me he has them.

I don't understand why landing quads and delivering crowd-pleasing programs have to be a mutually exclusive thing either.

I mean all he can do is see what he can do....why does he need to choose one or the other? I think he wants to be competitive and staking the steps toward it. Also I doubt a single 4S in a FS is even the final finish line.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Where in the rules does it say judges are supposed to look at where takeoff starts

The rules don't say anything, but obviously they need to decide where a jump starts to determine if it was short or not on the landing. If you do look at where Hanyu starts the jump, not even talking about having less pre-rotation but where he turns into the salchow, then you will see his landing point is in the margin. Someone turning on a landing doesn't inherently mean the rotation was lacking enough for a < call. Any blade will dig into the ice and continue turning if the skater doesn't check it. You can land completely "backwards", but if you don't break out of rotational position, then your blade will keep going (and you will fall).

Saying strong lack of pre-rotation makes up for under rotation on the landing is like saying "that biellmann had better extension than I've ever seen -- so I'll just ignore the fact that it wasn't centred"

That's not what is being said, but nice to see another straw-man from you. All jumps exist within a circle. You can take-off and land at any point within the circle, and a skater who pre-rotates less is factually rotating more in the air (depending on landing point in comparison to the person who pre-rotates more, of course). I believe the rules should account for this and have clear mathematical principles about it, but Hanyu's 4S was "okay" even if you go by a method of only looking at where the blade is at the start of the jump.

While this is a separate point of discussion now, your inaccurate analogy might be useful for looking at how we should score elements. If there is a biellmann spin with the best extension and speed ever, but isn't perfectly centered, would it deserve to score higher than a biellmann which is slow and has lackluster extension, but centered? Yes, it would. All aspects are taken into account for a reason. Jumps should follow a similar principal. You should not ignore what is happening at the start of a jump.

It's also odd for you to acknowledge Chen had a forward landing position on his 4F and drop his GOE to a 0, but in the next breath dismiss Hanyu's way sloppier landing position and absolve it from appropriate GOE reduction.

I would give one jump a 0 and the other jump a -2. What are you even talking about. :noshake:

 

[GGFan]

Why would he switch coaches, and move to Toronto if he doesn't have goals? Just because he doesn't state them doesn't me he has them.

I don't understand why landing quads and delivering crowd-pleasing programs have to be a mutually exclusive thing either.

Agreed. I think sometimes we do a disservice to these skaters by putting them in boxes. That is, as the artist, Jason should not worry as much about his content. But Jason is in a sport and I don't think he's just out here to perform. There's a lot more grit in him than he gets credit for.