Yuzuru Hanyu: 2019-2021

[pianistliz]

Oh are they talking like that in competition thread? It's interesting we are seeing the same things but have different opinions. That is all I can say here And yes, his programs were way harder than the other medalists in this competition.

That's what I thought! Thank you!

 

[JuliettaG]

I read some quotes on Twitter and I'm between pissed and crying for what they did to him today. For me it was the best Origin version, and the calls were a joke.
I hope he doesn't feel discouraged and keeps fighting.
What it's clear for me it's that the moment he retires ( he is talking about going to Beijing ) I'll quit watching this sport that I loved since I was little, I cannot enjoy it anymore.

 

[ankifeather]

So someone on the competition thread thought that Yuzu was overscored on both segments and Kevin should have challenged for gold with his performances. Also a couple people mentioning how he wasn't 100% into his performance and didn't deserve higher PCS than he got. But on this thread, the consensus is he was underscored, right? I have no figure skating experience myself, but aside from three of the jumps not being their best, it was my favorite Origin yet, and choreographically/artistically I felt it was even more defined and mature than Worlds. I'm so confused, am I just biased or did he really not do as well as I perceived? I watched it twice and loved it just as much the 2nd time. And his program was harder than the other medallists, right? I'm used to commentators calling out jumps and stuff during the performances so today I didn't follow the layouts of the competitors quite as well and I don't know what to think.

Also does an underrotation call count as a "major error that affects the PCS cap"? Or is it just falls/pops?

The technical difference between Kevin and Hanyu are such that barring a complete major meltdown, Kevin would not have the chance to win against Hanyu at all, anyone who thinks so must be joking. Only mistakes that majorly impact the continuation of a program are counted in the 90 cap, which don't include URs (as they don't disrupt anything) and usually judges don't count step outs and tight landings either - because if they do, a lot of skaters wouldn't get the PCS they got last season. And for people who don't like Hanyu, they will not be able to see a performance anyways.

Rather than what he say or she say, to give you an idea of how underscored his FP PCS was today, past numbers explain best (and these numbers are already low).

Past PCS of Hanyu competing 1st half of season in Canada:
SC 2016: some tight landings, 1 fall 1 pop - 88.12
ACI 2017: some bad landings, 1 pop 1 fall - 89.5
ACI 2018: some bad landings, 1 pop 1 fall - 87.9

Today is only 2-3 bad landings but no pop and fall and he got the same PCS as if he also popped and fell - this means even compared to past ACI/SC, the North American judges are treating him harsher.

Then you compare to say when he skated in Europe, which is more neutral ground, the comparison becomes even worse:
Helsinki 2018: 3 bad landings - 92.42
RoC 2018: 1 fall 1 pop a tight landing - 90.64

The jump mistakes are closer to Helsinki 2018 today, which is why I said earlier 92 PCS is the bottom line. And when you add the obvious additional choreography and transitions he added, even 92 PCS would be considered stingy.

 

[Beckaboomer]

Scoring discourse is something I try to avoid, since it just raises my blood pressure. However, I would say that the UR calls were not fair given that his blade was angled the same at takeoff & landing on all toeloops. The salchow was borderline, but normally when it’s close like that they’ll rule in favor of the skater so I found the tech calling today pretty suspect.

Even given that, he still won and I know it’ll just make him fight harder. The PCS was what I found myself really shocked by. But the way judges score PCS now barely makes sense to me anyway. Vincent Zhou got 87 PCS at Worlds 2019. Are the judges seriously trying to say that Yuzuru Hanyu was only 2 points better than him today in skating skills, interpretation, and transitions. It’s a bit ridiculous.

Kevin was wonderful and deserved every single point of PCS he got today. But saying Yuzu should’ve been higher in PCS isn’t necessarily saying Kevin couldn’t have challenged for gold. Had Kevin been clean his GOEs might’ve done it but he had bad landings too.

 

[firal]

I am so happy about his performances this weekend; I think having two familiar performances really helped; he is already able to polish up on the details that make a program truly memorable.

As for the scoring, I read prior (maybe during ladies?) that ACI has a reputation of being stingy, so I guess in the back of my mind I had already decided to careless about the score , so I am less angry now at the moment. I doubt he will be discouraged! He should fired up!

I did not think he can out-bling out-feather the original Origin costume, but he proved me wrong! He certainly likes his blue/purple shades doesn't he?? I love it, it's spectacularly Yuzuru and yes I am biased.

 

[hisori]

Unpopular opinion but I don't know what he expected to happen other than this when he recycled the programs. The fact that he was doing tributes despite not intending to retire was already an odd choice last season. Now he brings them back and they're not even that improved, Origin has even lost some of its emotional charge this time around and it's not the gimmicky violin move that's going to make a difference there. I love the guy but he miscalculated for the current climate and I hope he won't break himself again trying to make up for losing favor by trying more and more difficult jumps.

 

[Imov]

Still in zombie mode and disappointed because of how this unfair judging has been dominant in the sport for so long.
Its not just for Yuzu but for other skaters too, but I cannot mention their names because it might violate the forum rules.
Yuzu please stay confident, you are doing well.
Its not game over yet.
And for those people who corruptly devalue the hardwork of devoted skaters, the universe will deal with you accordingly.

 

[hanyuufan5]

Unpopular opinion but I don't know what he expected to happen other than this when he recycled the programs. The fact that he was doing tributes despite not intending to retire was already an odd choice last season. Now he brings them back and they're not even that improved, Origin has even lost some of its emotional charge this time around and it's not the gimmicky violin move that's going to make a difference there. I love the guy but he miscalculated for the current climate and I hope he won't break himself again trying to make up for losing favor by trying more and more difficult jumps.

I think he expected to be judged fairly on what he did on the ice at this specific competition rather than how many times he's done the programs before or what they represent.

It's his first competition of the season. He's probably pretty nervous given his ankle and the new jumps and such. Give him some time. As Brian Orser says, "The first pancake is the worst." I already see improvement, don't find the violin move "gimmicky" at all, and he's certainly not losing any favor with his fans.

As for doing tributes being "odd", look how many young (and old!) skaters (and dancers, and unicyclists, and musicians) are already doing tributes to him. There's nothing odd about gratitude. He's lucky that he can thank the people who have inspired him on such a grand scale. I wish I had some big, showy way of thanking all the people I wouldn't be where I am without.

 

[pianistliz]

Unpopular opinion but I don't know what he expected to happen other than this when he recycled the programs. The fact that he was doing tributes despite not intending to retire was already an odd choice last season. Now he brings them back and they're not even that improved, Origin has even lost some of its emotional charge this time around and it's not the gimmicky violin move that's going to make a difference there. I love the guy but he miscalculated for the current climate and I hope he won't break himself again trying to make up for losing favor by trying more and more difficult jumps.

I respectfully disagree. I liked the violin move, I thought it was poignant and I think it made my heart skip a beat, esp since it wasn't expected. Although I'm a musician and play the violin, so maybe I'm a little biased there

But as far as recycling his programs goes, I'd understand the judges rolling their eyes at him if he brought back Chopin yet again, or maybe if he competed with these programs all last season and had a cleaner world's showing. But he only got to skate half a season with these, and he never got to fully enjoy the process of creating tributes he himself would be proud of. I think it would be wrong to dock points for that. Plus his jump content in Origin is way different, in addition to altering some of the choreo. It's obvious he is pushing himself and experimenting as he works toward his idea of perfection, which is what I'd hope the judges look for and appreciate.

 

[hanyuufan5]

I liked the violin move, I thought it was poignant and I think it made my heart skip a beat, esp since it wasn't expected. Although I'm a musician and play the violin, so maybe I'm a little biased there

Nah, I had the same reaction for the same reason, and I'm awful at the violin.

 

[pianistliz]

The technical difference between Kevin and Hanyu are such that barring a complete major meltdown, Kevin would not have the chance to win against Hanyu at all, anyone who thinks so must be joking. Only mistakes that majorly impact the continuation of a program are counted in the 90 cap, which don't include URs (as they don't disrupt anything) and usually judges don't count step outs and tight landings either - because if they do, a lot of skaters wouldn't get the PCS they got last season. And for people who don't like Hanyu, they will not be able to see a performance anyways.

Rather than what he say or she say, to give you an idea of how underscored his FP PCS was today, past numbers explain best (and these numbers are already low).

Past PCS of Hanyu competing 1st half of season in Canada:
SC 2016: some tight landings, 1 fall 1 pop - 88.12
ACI 2017: some bad landings, 1 pop 1 fall - 89.5
ACI 2018: some bad landings, 1 pop 1 fall - 87.9

Today is only 2-3 bad landings but no pop and fall and he got the same PCS as if he also popped and fell - this means even compared to past ACI/SC, the North American judges are treating him harsher.

Then you compare to say when he skated in Europe, which is more neutral ground, the comparison becomes even worse:
Helsinki 2018: 3 bad landings - 92.42
RoC 2018: 1 fall 1 pop a tight landing - 90.64

The jump mistakes are closer to Helsinki 2018 today, which is why I said earlier 92 PCS is the bottom line. And when you add the obvious additional choreography and transitions he added, even 92 PCS would be considered stingy.

This is very helpful, thank you so much! Though now that I'm looking at the numbers, it makes me more upset for him.

 

[Ophelia]

Unpopular opinion but I don't know what he expected to happen other than this when he recycled the programs. The fact that he was doing tributes despite not intending to retire was already an odd choice last season. Now he brings them back and they're not even that improved, Origin has even lost some of its emotional charge this time around and it's not the gimmicky violin move that's going to make a difference there. I love the guy but he miscalculated for the current climate and I hope he won't break himself again trying to make up for losing favor by trying more and more difficult jumps.

I have to agree with you. Someone wondered aloud if he's getting dinged for repeating programs too much and I think there might be some truth to it.

 

[msteach3]

Unpopular opinion but I don't know what he expected to happen other than this when he recycled the programs. The fact that he was doing tributes despite not intending to retire was already an odd choice last season. Now he brings them back and they're not even that improved, Origin has even lost some of its emotional charge this time around and it's not the gimmicky violin move that's going to make a difference there. I love the guy but he miscalculated for the current climate and I hope he won't break himself again trying to make up for losing favor by trying more and more difficult jumps.

I don't think the recycled programs had anything to do with the score...but, I must say I'm disappointed he chose to use both. He's done this before and in a way it's a bit of a cop-out. Sure, he only competed half of last season, but I would expect one new program from the Olympic champ. My vote would have been a new SP as Otonal has been done many times by other skaters, and I find the choreography and costume over the top. It's the beginning of the season so hopefully he can work out the jump issues as he will need them to beat Nathan, Shoma and possibly Vincent.

 

[eaglehelang]

That's what I thought! Thank you!

Yuzuru did 4 quads in the LP. 3 combos with 10% bonus. His 4T was never ever called UR in his career - even last year when there was a change of rules.
This year, the rules supposed to be slightly more lenient compared to last year.

Kevin Aymoz did 2 quads, just 4T and 4T combo. Keegan Messing did 3 quads.
Just on tech alone, Yuzuru's BV is higher.

The PCS, <facepalm>. He didnt have a fall & some judges put his scores at 8.75 ???

 

[eaglehelang]

Unpopular opinion but I don't know what he expected to happen other than this when he recycled the programs. The fact that he was doing tributes despite not intending to retire was already an odd choice last season. Now he brings them back and they're not even that improved, Origin has even lost some of its emotional charge this time around and it's not the gimmicky violin move that's going to make a difference there. I love the guy but he miscalculated for the current climate and I hope he won't break himself again trying to make up for losing favor by trying more and more difficult jumps.

I do not think so at all. They already dinged him last year just for continuing & not retiring. With over the top scores for Nathan like 330 at WC.
The message was, and still is "Retire, you have 2 OG Gold already. We want a champion from North America". It is that blatantly obvious.

As a follower of other sports, I would consider ISU treats the 2X OG champ in a dismal manner, compared to how other sports treat their star champion.

 

[ankifeather]

Unpopular opinion but I don't know what he expected to happen other than this when he recycled the programs. The fact that he was doing tributes despite not intending to retire was already an odd choice last season.

I have to agree with you. Someone wondered aloud if he's getting dinged for repeating programs too much and I think there might be some truth to it.

On recycling, most people complaining are comparing him to the generation with only 1-3 years in senior, who of course have new programs, as they don't even have a repertoire to recycle from yet. In his first three senior years, Hanyu didn't recycle anything either. You move on to a 4 year senior like Shoma, and he has recycled two programs already.

If you want to compare, compare with someone who had 10 or more adult seasons and you will realise Hanyu didn't do anything extraordinary. Javi recycled 4 programs including one for three times, and both on the Olympic like Hanyu. Patrick recycled 6 programs, plus one song he used three times. But have you seen people saying Javi and Patrick should get less PCS just because they recycled, or skated a song three times? People are just playing double standards.

Chopin, Semei, and PW were recycled because its the Olympics - on the Olympics it is common sense to bring your best programs. Many Olympic champions won with recycled programs. As for Origin and Otonal, he only skated it 4 times last season. Most men skated their programs 8-10 times in 2018/19. So there is no reason for judges to be tired of the program already. Most of them probably never saw it live before, and unless they like to follow Hanyu's every competition, probably only saw it before on Worlds on TV. So it is far from a reason to ding his PCS. The real reason is clear, which I have already pointed out

 

[Lamente Ariane]

I support both Yuzuru and Kevin (and Camden, and Keegan, and Junhwan!) so for me today was full of rich performances that I enjoyed. In the end, Yuzuru won and that was correct. I'm not gonna stress out over the scoring details on the first competition of the season, personally. He's only going to improve from here

 

[yude]

We can watch very short comment from him.

https://www.olympicchannel.com/ja/stories/news/detail/動画-aci制した羽生結弦-今の構成と目指している完成形は違う/

 

[yude]

I support both Yuzuru and Kevin (and Camden, and Keegan, and Junhwan!) so for me today was full of rich performances that I enjoyed. In the end, Yuzuru won and that was correct. I'm not gonna stress out over the scoring details on the first competition of the season, personally. He's only going to improve from here

I am glad you could enjoy the competition

 

[SnowWhite]

Not that I agree with the PCS scores (and I haven't rewatch, so I have no opinion on the ur calls), but some of the comments here about the judging/tech panel aren't really accurate.

The tech panel was USA, Mexico and Canada. The ref was also American, but the ref isn't really involved in calling jumps. So it's not a bunch of American plus a Canadian. It's people from 3 different countries. It's quite common to see an all-European tech panel, so I'm not sure why it should be some sort of scandal for the tech panel to be North American.

And I saw people saying the North American judges were the ones being super hard on his PCS, but the two judges giving the lowest PCS scores were the judges from Iceland and Germany. 3 judges had him 2nd in PCS to Kevin - USA, Mexico and Iceland. Every judges except the Japanese one had his PCS total between 88.50 and 90.50 (ISL, GER, USA, MEX, CAN, AUS).

So it's not really correct to just blame it on North American judging. It's not like Mexico or even Canada have any men who can compete with him anyways.

---

Anyways, on the subject of the repeated programs, I was a little disappointed, but I don't mind too much. These are some of my favourites of his, and he did miss a lot of the season. Watching how intense he is in Origin (and especially Masquerade this summer) made me think how fun it would be to see him skate to one of the really intense pieces from Game of Thrones. Only because there are a few that I really like, but they'd be too big for almost any skater and he's one of the only ones I could imagine skating to them without being overwhelmed. Not that I think he would.