2015-16 Grand Prix Final Mens SP

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It boggles my mind that any competitive skater would compete for so long without memorizing the rulebook from front to back.

There really is no excuse at this point, especially when he's aware of invalidated elements.

But perhaps he also felt that he wanted to do the 3-3 no matter what.

This season must be a record (not just for Chan) for invalidated elements. But these rules have been in place a while and these guys should know better.

This should be as automatic as "if you miss your first jump in combination, you must put your second jump in some sort of combination."

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I said this in the Hanyu/Patrick thread, but in case I'm wrong, I would like someone to clarify something for me. It's my understanding that the rule that invalidated Chan's 3Lutz/3Toe is not the same rule as the "Zayak" rule but rather rules made regarding the short program requirements. Repeating a jump element simply wasn't/isn't allowed for reasons not Zayak-related. I'm just wondering because people keep saying "Zayak" rule but I don't think it's the same rule.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Zayaking usually refers to a jump being invalidated because of previous attempt(s). But yes it's a slightly different case in the SP.

Technically you are allowed to do two triple toes.... a 3T+3T, 3Z, 3A layout is fine - a 3T, 3Z+3T, 3A is not.

Generally in the SP you Zayak if you try the same jump in two different jumping passes; in the FS you Zayak if you try the same jump three times.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Zayaking usually refers to a jump being invalidated because of previous attempt(s). But yes it's a slightly different case in the SP.

Technically you are allowed to do two triple toes.... a 3T+3T, 3Z, 3A layout is fine - a 3T, 3Z+3T, 3A is not.

Generally in the SP you Zayak if you try the same jump in two different jumping passes; in the FS you Zayak if you try the same jump three times.

So it's colloquial? I never thought that the term "Zayak" or "Zayaking" was used that broadly but was used for the specific instance of when a jump was invalidated because a skater repeated a triple jump in the free skate without one of them being in combination. I also thought the term was used to talk about the rule effectively limited the number of triples that was allowed to be performed in a program, through the invalidation through the prohibition of how many triples one could repeat and how they could repeat it. I just never thought to use it in the context of a SP invalidation.

 

[MIM]

Yuzu became a next level skater, not because he landed all planned quads, but because he made every element a part of his program. The quads were not the highlight of his program, it was the seamlessly integrated entire program. That made him a true master, IMO.

Some people may or may not agree, but I think this it the quality BO tries to bring in the figure skating. Most successfully done with Yuna's Gershwin LP in Vancouver Olympic and Yuzu's Chopin SP here. I think this vision makes Brian the best coach/artistic director and makes his students special.

 

[wasabi]

OMG just came on the site to see Patrick behind by 40 points and in last place:shocked:

Now to read back and see how!

 

[sabinfire]

OMG just came on the site to see Patrick behind by 40 points and in last place:shocked:

Now to read back and see how!

I think Patrick summed it up best himself: "I don’t really think about the rules going into the program,” Chan said. “I don’t study the rulebook off the ice.”

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I think Patrick summed it up best himself: "I don’t really think about the rules going into the program,” Chan said. “I don’t study the rulebook off the ice.”

As long as he doesn't come to GS with that attitude he'll be fine

 

[zebobes]

Some people may or may not agree, but I think this it the quality BO tries to bring in the figure skating. Most successfully done with Yuna's Gershwin LP in Vancouver Olympic and Yuzu's Chopin SP here. I think this vision makes Brian the best coach/artistic director and makes his students special.

I think Brian also works really well with people who have a constant desire to improve and better themselves. I remember after Vancouver, Brian was so excited, and was talking about how maybe the next challenge would be for Yuna to learn the Triple Axel, and when Yuna was asked about it later, she was like, "My coach said WHAT?!?" I think if Brian says, "We're going to do the Quad Axel now," Yuzu will be just like, "Sign me up!"

So, Yuzu is constantly tryiing to improve, but he's running into the problem that there's no more room in the scores. Once Yuzu gets everything perfect, he won't be satisfied, and will change something to make it even more harder. First he's going to start moving one of the quads into the second half, and then both... and then he's going to switch out one of them for a higher base value quad.

Compare this to Patrick and Yuna. Once they had gotten so far ahead of the field, they didn't really see a need to improve technically, and let things slide. Yuna stopped trying to consistently get L4 spins, and gave up on the triple loop. You can win a few competitions this way, but after a while, your competitors will catch up.

I don't know how long Yuzu can stay this hungry either... at some point, is he going to be satisfied with maintaining this high level without trying to get even better?

 

[andromache]

I think Patrick summed it up best himself: "I don’t really think about the rules going into the program,” Chan said. “I don’t study the rulebook off the ice.”

I'm not one to nitpick at what skaters say in interviews, but Patrick could've really endeared himself to me if he just said "Yeah I ****ed up."

 

[noskates]

Two observations: the first is, Patrick Chan could say the sky was blue and people would criticize him because he didn't say it was azure!

Second observation (and this won't be a popular one) Yuzu skated lights out - no question about it. But the scoring is ridiculous. Basically he could skate his LP on his butt and still win the competition. This will be like last year when he fell twice and still won. I really don't like that possibility. Yuzu hasn't always been the most consistent skater and the reality is he could have a bad LP and win. And there's something intrinsically wrong with that scenario. I think the judges need to calm down!!!

 

[Mathman]

This should be as automatic as "if you miss your first jump in combination, you must put your second jump in some sort of combination."

I think it is not so easy to keep every possibility in mind throughout the program. In the case of missing the combination and tacking it on later, I bet the skaters practice two versions of the program in order not to have to improvise on the fly.

There is also a psychological point. You don't want to practice flubbing your jumps or to enter the program with the mind set, "Well, I am probably going to mess up my quad, so I better have my plan B ready to go."

 

[Victura]

I'm not one to nitpick at what skaters say in interviews, but Patrick could've really endeared himself to me if he just said "Yeah I ****ed up."

He did. See http://www.thestar.com/sports/skati...ing-sixth-out-of-six-at-grand-prix-final.html

“I messed up,’’ admitted 24-year-old Chan, of the botch on a quad toe jump — he tripled it — that doomed the planned quad-triple combination, opening salvo in his breezy “Mack the Knife” routine.
“I tried to add the combo on the Lutz because you never want to give up. I tried to feel the program, feel the jumps but it wasn’t successful.”

 

[HanDomi]

Two observations: the first is, Patrick Chan could say the sky was blue and people would criticize him because he didn't say it was azure!

Second observation (and this won't be a popular one) Yuzu skated lights out - no question about it. But the scoring is ridiculous. Basically he could skate his LP on his butt and still win the competition. This will be like last year when he fell twice and still won. I really don't like that possibility. Yuzu hasn't always been the most consistent skater and the reality is he could have a bad LP and win. And there's something intrinsically wrong with that scenario. I think the judges need to calm down!!!

yhm ? He did what he did here, and he deserved to have such advance in front of competitors, and that's why I like current system. 6.0 wouldnt be enough to reflect the level of this performance in regard to others

 

[Victura]

This should be as automatic as "if you miss your first jump in combination, you must put your second jump in some sort of combination."

Wait, isn't that what Patrick tried to do? He was supposed to have a 4T-3T and did only a 3T, but since he also did a 3Lz-3T, the second toe invalidated the whole combo? Or do you mean he should've added the toe to the axel - wouldn't that also have invalidated that combo?

If my understanding of the rules is correct, the only option after his single 3T would've been if he did the combination with a 2T so as not to repeat the jump. I feel like someone actually did this sometime this season, but I don't remember who.

 

[bara1968]

I remember after Vancouver, Brian was so excited, and was talking about how maybe the next challenge would be for Yuna to learn the Triple Axel, and when Yuna was asked about it later, she was like, "My coach said WHAT?!?"
.

Compare this to Patrick and Yuna

Well I must first say that I was very happy to see Yuzu's performance here. I do not wat to talk about other skater who did not participate in this competition. But I will just point out few points which sound somewhat invalid here.

what you are saying here is unfair, especially regarding Yuna. Didn't you know that the reason why she tried BO as a couch was to practice that jump, Triple Axel? Years before Vancouver, she came to Toronto to work with Wilson and then asked BO to become her coach. What they did little later was to practice 3A. Unfortunately, Yuna could not continue to do so due to her consistent "severe injury" during 2006-2008, NOT because of the lack of desire to improve. She had to be very careful afterwards as it would be Olympics after one season.. Stopping 3A was really necessary for her back then . Rather, she put multiple 3Lz with 3Lz3T later, and concentrated on having clean programs. Let me remind you that she won Vancouver by more than 20 points with three WR.

The reason why she got upset with BO's interview after the Olympics was because she had never discussed such matter with him before the press conference, and later on, during their break-up, it was indeed revealed that their contract was indeed upto Vancouver- it was unclear whether the contract would be renewed after the Olympics; of course she would be upset when she did not even make up her mind whether to continue to compete yet, but her coach (who may not be her coach any more very soon) was saying something completely new to her in "press conference".

Yuna achieved similar to what Yuzu is achieving now, before Vancouver, by breaking WR more than 10 times. Vancouver was her peak. After Vancouver, it was more important to keep her physically healthy enough to compete, and she put more importance to do a program that pleases her. (I guess the same with Patrick.) Even with that, she won Worlds by 20 points few months after her comeback with 148 in LP. Winning a few competitions? Going into Sochi, before her injury, she was the most dominant contender. (And I have no intention to talk about Sochi results.) Unlike Patrick now, Yuna's contents were good enough to win any competition, as long as she could skate two clean programs back then.

Please do not make comparisons between skaters who are/were in completely different situation. Yuzu is peaking now and I am happy to witness that. But again, comparing his situation with the others' after their peak sounds unfair to me.

Let us please go back to discuss Men's SP.

 

[treeloving]

I have to say Fernandez's program choreography is amazing, the best of men field imo. I wish to see more involvement of real professional dancer in choreographing skating program, it could be seen that the program looks really different.

 

[zebobes]

Please do not make comparisons between skaters who are/were in completely different situation. Yuzu is peaking now and I am happy to witness that. But again, comparing his situation with the others' after their peak sounds unfair to me.

Let us please go back to discuss Men's SP.

Hahah, true. I actually love both Yuna and Patrick, so I didn't mean to put them into a negative light.

It is also true, I'm discussing skaters at different points of their careers. I guess my question is, how much more room is left for Yuzu to peak? How much further is he going to try to push himself? How long can his body sustain such high level abilities before physical limitations force him to slow down?

 

[xibsuarz]

Hahah, true. I actually love both Yuna and Patrick, so I didn't mean to put them into a negative light.

It is also true, I'm discussing skaters at different points of their careers. I guess my question is, how much more room is left for Yuzu to peak? How much further is he going to try to push himself? How long can his body sustain such high level abilities before physical limitations force him to slow down?

Guess that's one of the reasons why he plans to retire after 2018, before his body really starts to suffer.

 

[zebobes]

Guess that's one of the reasons why he plans to retire after 2018, before his body really starts to suffer.

Except he's never actually said that he's going to retire after 2018. True, he's only committed to skating to 2018 Olympics, but he hasn't ruled out continuing to compete. I remember reading an article where he told fans to calm down, he wasn't going to just completely stop skating after 2018.

He loves competing so much, I can imagine him being like Plushenko, constantly coming back as his body allows.