2016 Skate Canada Short Dance

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Interesting that C/B received two scores in the 7.0s for PCS. The Canadian judge gave them a 7.75 for transitions while the Dutch judge gave them a 7.75 for skating skills. Despite being over two points higher than V/M in base value, V/M are only one point behind in TES and over two points over C/B in PCS. Which means that the judges themselves are thinking V/M were better than C/B. More interesting is that the Dutch judge gave Stepanova/Bukin a higher skating skills score than V/M, which simply confuses me. C/L got dinged on the partial step sequence. Their GOEs were a bit lower than C/B but their PCS were less than half a point higher.

 

[Astrid56]

Interesting that C/B received two scores in the 7.0s for PCS. The Canadian judge gave them a 7.75 for transitions while the Dutch judge gave them a 7.75 for skating skills. Despite being over two points higher than V/M in base value, V/M are only one point behind in TES and over two points over C/B in PCS. Which means that the judges themselves are thinking V/M were better than C/B. More interesting is that the Dutch judge gave Stepanova/Bukin a higher skating skills score than V/M, which simply confuses me. C/L got dinged on the partial step sequence. Their GOEs were a bit lower than C/B but their PCS were less than half a point higher.

The judges are, plain and simple, playing favorites. :eeking: Shock? No!

 

[Matt K]

I believe it is a travesty that the USA judge gave C/B and V/M the same mark for skating skills. This is extremely unjust.

Then, I saw the Italian judge and she gave C/L higher for Skating Skills and Transitions than V/M. This judge must have learned from the D/W school of skating. It is an even bigger travesty. Now I understand how the results in Sochi played out with these types of people on the panel.

 

[WeakAnkles]

C/B should have placed 1st in this event having danced a true Hip hop. If PCS has to do with presentation, then they should have ranked 1st. Hip hop is a street dance ... kind of a cultural expression or a lifestyle, a way of life so moves are usually improvised, funky, hitting the beat or moving through a beat. It's very rhythmic. Usually, a dancer moves a specific body part independently from other parts. The dance is characterized by movements and poses _ popping, locking, breaking, etc. Whoever choreographed C/B SD dance understood the culture very well.

Yup, I said it the first time I saw it that Rohene actually choreographed REAL hip hop moves into the piece, which is more than you can say for most of these dances.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

The judges are, plain and simple, playing favorites. :eeking: Shock? No!

Madison, to me, wins the award for hottest skater on the ice at SC. She was on fire in that SD. I can honestly watch her perform all day and I'm a straight woman.

 

[SunDae]

The protocols do reveal a lot.

The level 4 footwork awarded by the tech panel for Chock/Bates gave them an almost 2 point benefit vs Virtue/Moir and 4.5 points versus C/L just from that element.

Is there s GOE calculation mistake or is it "double jeopardy" calculus when you don't get the level on the PST?

C/L were really penalized for the level 1 PST. They lost 3 points in base value alone comparatively speaking (level 4=7.10, level 1=4.10). On top of which, I wonder if the way their GOE is calculated is correct? They are only credited with 1.20 points worth of GOE towards their score, even though if you look at the judges' GOE marks , they average a +2 which is more than any of the other top 5 teams per judge (other than a Virtue/Moir) but they are somehow given much lower points (1.20 vs. for example Chock/Bates, who had a lower average GOE score when all judges are considered but are credited with a full point more.

What's with that? Maybe somebody more familiar with the scoring rules can explain why they are seemingly twice penalized - base value AND lower, ummm GOE "multiplier"??

 

[Ice Diva]

Madison, to me, wins the award for hottest skater on the ice at SC. She was on fire in that SD. I can honestly watch her perform all day and I'm a straight woman.

To each her own. I find Madison over acts no matter what the music.

 

[lyndichee]

I didn't understand what the judges loved about Chock and Bates performance. I was so excited to see this program in person because it looked really good and Madison is so fierce but I felt it was really underwhelming and kind of slow. The crowd didn't even know when to clap because their elements were so random. The only time I felt like the audience was into their performance was the ending. Bates sucked the life out of me in person; he looks like he's incredibly out of place at a club.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

To each her own. I find Madison over acts no matter what the music.

I usually agree with you, but I think it really works for the SD. I also think if she had a male partner who was more of a performer himself, she wouldn't look so OTT. I find after all these years and despite his superior skating skills, Evan has regressed a lot in terms of performance since his days with Emily. And Igor possibly encourages it. Yes I know Rohene Ward did the SD and Chris Dean did the FD, but Igor's the one with them every day fine tuning their programs and probably telling them how to sell it. I also really think Madison is a good student and teachable and if she had a teacher to teach her how to tone it down a bit, she'd be able to do it. But again, I find that she works in this SD.

 

[lyndichee]

I usually agree with you, but I think it really works for the SD. I also think if she had a male partner who was more of a performer himself, she wouldn't look so OTT. I find after all these years and despite his superior skating skills, Evan has regressed a lot in terms of performance since his days with Emily. And Igor possibly encourages it. Yes I know Rohene Ward did the SD and Chris Dean did the FD, but Igor's the one with them every day fine tuning their programs and probably telling them how to sell it. I also really think Madison is a good student and teachable and if she had a teacher to teach her how to tone it down a bit, she'd be able to do it. But again, I find that she works in this SD.

I think it is really just contrast with Evan. He is in the background the whole time. I felt like every girl was trying to oversell their program and have fun with it. Madison didn't stand out to me as over-expressive, she is just really hot (as a straight female as well).

 

[Mango]

Another in person report here. I thought that Chock/Bates' SD is stronger than their FD but seeing it live I was wondering why their midnight blues pattern was so slow. Judges clearly liked Anna/Luca, and the crowd found them charming too. If it weren't for the level 1 they would likely be ahead of Chock/Bates. Madison gives face but face doesn't equate to speed. And Evan needed wilder hair and a better costume. His hair is so nicely done like a proper Oxford school boy. Completely not bad to the bone. Anna/Luca sold their SD with their entire look. Chock/Bates did not.

 

[Alex D]

Opinion

I don´t think all of you play fair with Madi & Evan. Yes, their skating style is different and out of the box, you don´t need to like it, but to put them as "bad" dancers, is really unfair.

They have incredible speed (and that´s what other skaters say as well, I don´t make this up ), very good transitions and always go a high risk, as with the entry to their twizzle sequence or by putting hip hop as second, with that huge no touch line. Do you know how hard it is, to stay so well aligned after two minutes of skating, still selling the hell out of that program, with good edges and effortless expression, while your legs are tired and just want to rest? It´s not something that we should just ignore, this is great ice dancing Ladies and Gentleman!

Of course, also Tessa and Scott have strong elements and I am a huge fan of the music that they have chosen for their twizzles and lift. The end is perfect, so uplifting and made for gold medal winners - smart choice and I am honest with you, the way how the Canadians sneak over the ice, is very special and they have so much grace in their movements, wonderful extensions and a very mature expression, with edge quality that is second to none, while the Americans have such strong skills in their upper body and just skate in the moment with great joy and alignment.

For me, both pairs are so different, that it all comes down to the personal preference and a bit the old story, speed vs. deep edges, Drama vs. Fun. In my opinion, we can be very happy to have such quality on ice, no matter who you prefer, you can only win. Sadly, Madison and Evan, always had a hard standing at the Forum here, So I try to hold up their flag a bit, not because of Madison smile or Evans hair, but because they are really talented and bring so many new aspects to the sport that I like.

Of course, the other pairs were also great, but I need to get some sleep now. That being said, it was a great Ice Dance competition and tomorrow is another day!

 

[Ice Diva]

I don´t think all of you play fair with Madi & Evan. Yes, their skating style is different and out of the box, you don´t need to like it, but to put them as "bad" dancers, is really unfair.

They have incredible speed (and that´s what other skaters say as well, I don´t make this up ), very good transitions and always go a high risk, as with the entry to their twizzle sequence or by putting hip hop as second, with that huge no touch line. Do you know how hard it is, to stay so well aligned after two minutes of skating, still selling the hell out of that program, with good edges and effortless expression, while your legs are tired and just want to rest? It´s not something that we should just ignore, this is great ice dancing Ladies and Gentleman!

Of course, also Tessa and Scott have strong elements and I am a huge fan of the music that they have chosen for their twizzles and lift. The end is perfect, so uplifting and made for gold medal winners - smart choice and I am honest with you, the way how the Canadians sneak over the ice, is very special and they have so much grace in their movements, wonderful extensions and a very mature expression, with edge quality that is second to none, while the Americans have such strong skills in their upper body and just skate in the moment with great joy and alignment.

For me, both pairs are so different, that it all comes down to the personal preference and a bit the old story, speed vs. deep edges, Drama vs. Fun. In my opinion, we can be very happy to have such quality on ice, no matter who you prefer, you can only win. Sadly, Madison and Evan, always had a hard standing at the Forum here, So I try to hold up their flag a bit, not because of Madison smile or Evans hair, but because they are really talented and bring so many new aspects to the sport that I like.

Of course, the other pairs were also great, but I need to get some sleep now. That being said, it was a great Ice Dance competition and tomorrow is another day!

Don't know if it's not playing fair, Alex. I personally want to like them, but whenever I watch Madi and Evan I'm left unmoved - there's just something missing and that's lack of connection to each other and often to the music. And perhaps, as some posters have said, Madi gives a lot of face because Evan is deadpan most of the time. As for speed - well, that SD was very slow. I always watch ice dancers' feet and they don't IMHO have great skating skills - good, not great - certainly not close to V/M. Granted C/B's program is full of technical difficulty, lifts and transitions which they executed well and smoothly.

 

[sowcow]

The protocols do reveal a lot.

Is there s GOE calculation mistake or is it "double jeopardy" calculus when you don't get the level on the PST?

C/L were really penalized for the level 1 PST. They lost 3 points in base value alone comparatively speaking (level 4=7.10, level 1=4.10). On top of which, I wonder if the way their GOE is calculated is correct? They are only credited with 1.20 points worth of GOE towards their score, even though if you look at the judges' GOE marks , they average a +2 which is more than any of the other top 5 teams per judge (other than a Virtue/Moir) but they are somehow given much lower points (1.20 vs. for example Chock/Bates, who had a lower average GOE score when all judges are considered but are credited with a full point more.

What's with that? Maybe somebody more familiar with the scoring rules can explain why they are seemingly twice penalized - base value AND lower, ummm GOE "multiplier"??

I'll give it a try...

So, looking at the protocols, we see the following scores for C/L and C/B for the Partial Step Sequence (PSt):

Team......Element.....Base......±GOE.....j1...j2...j3...j4...j5...j6...j7...j8...j9.......total
C/L..........PSt1........4.10........1.20......1....2....2....2....2....3....2....2....2.......5.30
C/B.........PSt3........7.10........2.20......1....2....2....2....2..22....2....2....2.......9.30


The Basics — How are the scores calculated??

• The computer randomly choose 7 of 9 judges.
• Of the remaining 7 GOE scores, the highest & lowest are thrown out;
  ...➔ So, given the C/L vs. C/B case above, each couple would end up with 5 identical GOE scores:.. 2....2....2....2..22
• Each of the 5 GOE scores that remain is converted to a real number (based on the Scale of Values table); which then gets added/subtracted to the base value for that element [as assigned by the technical panel].
• The 5 newly calculated "base value ± GOE" scores for that element are then averaged [which is how you arrive at the 5.30 vs. 9.30 points in the final column above].

For me, it is easier to understand the "twice penalized" scenario if I think of the jump elements performed by singles skaters:

• The jump elements most similar to the 'base value' points of the PSt1 (= 4.10) versus the PSt3 (= 7.10) are:
  • the double-lutz (= 2.10) versus the triple-lutz (= 6.00); OR
  • the double-axel (= 3.30) versus triple-axel (= 8.50).

Now, imagine a scenario where instead of performing partial step sequences, C/L performed a double-lutz (or double-axel) versus C/B who performed a triple-lutz (or triple-axel).

• If both teams perform their respective jump element ~equally as well (e.g. both teams end up with 5 identical GOE scores of . 2....2....2....2..22), then their respective "base value ± GOE" scores for the jump element would be:
  • 2.70 vs. 7.40 (if the jumps were lutzes); OR
  • 4.30 vs. 10.50 (if the jumps were axels).

Team.......Element......Base......±GOE.....j1...j2...j3...j4...j5...j6...j7...j8...j9.......total
C/L.......double-lutz....2.10........0.60......1....2....2....2....2....3....2....2....2.......2.70
C/B.......triple-lutz....6.00........1.40......1....2....2....2....2..22....2....2....2.......7.40


Team.......Element......Base......±GOE.....j1...j2...j3...j4...j5...j6...j7...j8...j9.......total
C/L.......double-axel....3.30........1.00......1....2....2....2....2....3....2....2....2.......4.30
C/B...... triple-axel....8.50........2.00......1....2....2....2....2..22....2....2....2......10.50


For myself, equating certain dance elements to 'jumps' makes it easier for me to understand why teams are "twice penalized" under the COP system.

 

[4everchan]

i was at work... but i mention it now

... what, no mention here of Paul's butt yet in those red pants? I'm shocked!

 

[4everchan]

he's mine LOL

Patrice!!!

 

[4everchan]

saw them up close at aci : they look even better in person... both of them

The Danish couple is ridiculously good-looking.

 

[4everchan]

that woman is tracy wilson, olympic medalist, and on tcc coaching staff... she's very knowledgeable and kind to all skaters.. not sure what you find annoying?

that woman on the Canadian stream is SO ANNOYING

 

[reneerose]

Also a bit puzzled, since Tracy Wilson is widely regarded as an excellent commentator. I always enjoy her on TV.
She explains the technical stuff a bit for the newer viewers, offers a lot of support and positive feedback, and respectfully points out areas where skaters could improve.
Keep in mind that the TSN audience is largely casual skating fans who are just tuning in to see the Canadians win, which is why you may feel she's biased.

As an American viewer, and fan of Tracy during her competitive years, I just LOVE her commentary. It's pleasant and all her points are well made and made at just the right times. At least for me personally. I also love most of the Eurosport commentators. Sadly I can listen to her or them only if I watch You Tube skating videos.

 

[Snow63]

Another in person report here. I thought that Chock/Bates' SD is stronger than their FD but seeing it live I was wondering why their midnight blues pattern was so slow. Judges clearly liked Anna/Luca, and the crowd found them charming too. If it weren't for the level 1 they would likely be ahead of Chock/Bates. Madison gives face but face doesn't equate to speed. And Evan needed wilder hair and a better costume. His hair is so nicely done like a proper Oxford school boy. Completely not bad to the bone. Anna/Luca sold their SD with their entire look. Chock/Bates did not.

It's impossible. All teams' patterns have the exact same tempo, and if you'll take a watch to check you'll see that the pattern dance is taking to same time to execute for every team. Besides each step and turn is executed to the prescribed beat of the music, and if someone takes slower pace they receive a timing mistake penalty. Chock and Bates pattern was not slower than the pattern of any other team. Unless you mean different element, Partial Step Sequence tha follow the pattern, for example.

In short, I REALLY enjoyed Chock and Bates, they skated lights out in my opinion. Just as Virtue/Moir, who did pretty amazing too. But the best presentation for me personally had Anna and Luca. They know how to work their short dances, that's for sure. And I like their music a lot