Mirai Nagasu to try triple Axel @ nationals

[drivingmissdaisy]

The number of women who accomplished 3A in international competition can be counted on two hands. The number of American women who have accomplished can be counted on two fingers. It's a big deal for any coach to have a ladies skater land a fully rotated 3A, especially in the US. Many have tried only a few have succeeded.

It's fine to post it, but to commit her to doing it at Nationals is different.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

It's not like Frank, Bryan, or Rafael have any girls doing 3A at the moment.

To be fair, they have skaters who can rotate 5 triples in the LP.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

That looked amazing. She has nothing to lose and is definitely one of the top skaters. Would love to see her and Mariah at Worlds. Go Mirai!!!

Um....Mirai and Mariah might be amusingly confusing

 

[Gullygirl84]

I feel like Mirai is at a similar point right now where she was at this time last year at the end of the GP season, and her triples were cleaner towards the end of the season (rotated 6 triples in the LP at Nationals, rotated 7 triples in the LP at 4 Continents, rotated 5 triples in the LP at Worlds). I hope that she is able to peak similarly this year...I also am scared that her attempting a 3 Axel at Nationals this year will make her lose focus, but obviously it's something that Tom and her will have to decide and live with. Regardless of whether she does it in competition, the only place it will "count" obviously, it's still pretty cool that she is able to land one in practice, and I don't know why Tom shouldn't boast about it. But I also don't want him to put more pressure on her.

 

[Tolstoj]

Agreed. Mirai is my favorite American woman and I love her to death, but I don't think this is a smart decision considering her UR and inconsistency problems. Mao Asada is a prime example of the 3A doing her no favors. With M*dv*d*v* on the brink of beating Mao's WR score (which I suspect she'll break this week if she skates clean... whether she deserves it is an entirely other question), the judges are sending a clear message to skaters: be consistent and we'll jack up your scores.

I think after Tuktamysheva won Worlds, skaters saw the 3A as an "easy" pass towards inflated scores. The big difference is that Liza only added the 3A after a season of 38,000 nailed competitions so her components, GOEs, and clean jumps were already well established. Landing the 3A isn't going to make the judges overlook Mirai's other URs or boost her PCS.

It'll be exciting for sure, but we've seen how Mao and Liza have trekked on in their programs after a mistake on the 3A... and it's almost never good. Big risk, little reward, IMO. I would love to be proved wrong though.

Polina Edmunds was so consistent before the injury and her marks were always pretty low, Medvedeva isn't there just because of consistency.

URs affect the score whether a skater is consistent or not.

I'm concerned for Mirai: 3A for a lady is a big ask, she should backload the combo instead (maybe with an easier 3t-3t). Liza practiced the 3A for so many years before attempting it at Worlds 2015.

 

[frida80]

It's fine to post it, but to commit her to doing it at Nationals is different.

To be fair, they have skaters who can rotate 5 triples in the LP.

I've said this on another thread that I think Mirai will be doing in practice but not competing with it. And yeah they do have skaters that can rotate jumps. But if they do that, they won't be making history will they? (You need at 7 triples to win anything major anyway.) There are lots of world medalist, Olympians, and such. There are only seven women that have landed a 3A. Just seven. Teaching a US lady to do a 3A is incredible. My hats off to him, because count me in as one of the ones that didn't think it was possible at her age. And I love Mirai!

What this means for ladies FS as a whole is huge. If Tom's technique can be duplicated, we can finally enter in a new age where the technical difficulty of women finally increases. Ladies have been doing 3Lz+3T since Kristi! Meanwhile, men are landing quad lutzes and quad Flips! We definitely needed to jump forward in terms of technical content.

As for Mirai, I hope she takes it slow. Next year she can start early and compete with the jump. Once it's solid, then it will be ready for major competition.

 

[noidont]

I wouldn't call Miss 3F<1lo<3S< rotating jumps at this point.
Mirai's 3A looks good, though trying it at Nationals is so risky. US judges treat her unfairly. She will end up getting a 3A< with minus 2 GOE even with a clean jump. Not encouraging.

 

[gkelly]

Ladies have been doing 3Lz+3T since Kristi!

Aside from Yamaguchi and Ito in 1991-92, who was the next skater to land 3Lz+3T?

Nicole Bobek 1995, with edge change and double three on second landing?

Elena Ivanova 1996, under on 3T?

Shizuka Arakawa 1998, possibly under on 3T?

I'm pretty sure Surya Bonaly tried it sometimes but I can't quickly find examples -- not sure if she ever got it cleaner than Ivanova or Arakawa.

Anyone else in the 90s I'm forgetting?

I wouldn't be surprised if there have been more 3Lz+3T combinations landed by ladies in the last 3 months than in the entire 6.0 era.

There's exceptional skaters pushing the envelope well ahead of their time, ahead of the pack they were competing against. And then there's the rest of the pack catching up. There's been a lot of progress in ladies' jumping on the second front, not so much on the first.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

She will end up getting a 3A< with minus 2 GOE even with a clean jump. Not encouraging.

The one posted to Instagram would get full credit. You can pause it where she lands and she is within 1/4 rotation on the landing, but not all the way around. She would have little margin for error there, and would have to proceed to do several more difficult jumps and spins well to get any benefit from the attempt.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I'm pretty sure Surya Bonaly tried it sometimes but I can't quickly find examples -- not sure if she ever got it cleaner than Ivanova or Arakawa.

Bonaly landed them at the 1995 and 1996 Europeans in the LP, but both would be judged < today.

 

[andromache]

What this means for ladies FS as a whole is huge. If Tom's technique can be duplicated, we can finally enter in a new age where the technical difficulty of women finally increases. Ladies have been doing 3Lz+3T since Kristi! Meanwhile, men are landing quad lutzes and quad Flips! We definitely needed to jump forward in terms of technical content.

Presumably the technique of the coaches of Liza, Mao, Tonya, Midori etc. could've been duplicated and started this new age....?

I don't think Mirai's gorgeous practice 3A necessarily means anything huge for the sport - but it could be something huge for Mirai. But it does make me wonder if she would be better off focusing her training time on rotating the rest of her jumps. No one needs a 3A to be on top - and it certainly wouldn't take a 3A to be the number 1 US lady. A cleanish non-3A Mirai has a very realistic shot to make the Worlds team, and that doesn't warrant a go-for-broke 3A strategy, IMO.

 

[chuckm]

Mirai got FIVE URs at NHK: one in the SP and four in the FS. At least that was some improvement over the 7 URs and 1 DG she got at SC.

IMO, it is FAR more important to work on what isn't working in her skating than to add a 3A that might be rotated and landed, or possibly just one more UR + massive program disrupter.

Just because Mirai can land a 3a cleanly in practice does not mean she can do so in competition, and a Nationals competition is the toughest of them all. If Mirai were a skater with iron nerves, trying the 3a at Nationals might be a good move, but clearly she is not. As it is, she starts off her program with 3f+3t which lately gets scored as 3f<+3t< because nerves get to her, eat at her confidence. and she backs off. That does not bode well for a 3a which usually is done near the beginning of a program to ensure sufficient energy.

Trying the 3a at Nationals could cause another failure to make the 2017 world team that could further hurt her chances to make the Olympic team next year.

 

[Alchamei]

Not a good idea. She can't rotate other jumps on their own, let alone the triple Axel. All her practise attempts seem underrotated and she might mess up the whole skate after that, just Mao does.

 

[frida80]

Presumably the technique of the coaches of Liza, Mao, Tonya, Midori etc. could've been duplicated and started this new age....?

I don't think Mirai's gorgeous practice 3A necessarily means anything huge for the sport - but it could be something huge for Mirai. But it does make me wonder if she would be better off focusing her training time on rotating the rest of her jumps. No one needs a 3A to be on top - and it certainly wouldn't take a 3A to be the number 1 US lady. A cleanish non-3A Mirai has a very realistic shot to make the Worlds team, and that doesn't warrant a go-for-broke 3A strategy, IMO.

In the US no, it could not have been duplicated because grace always ranked higher than technical content. It's why we've lagged behind so much when IJS was instituted. However, many coaches believe that you can't teach a 3A after puberty and don't bother with it. If To, proves that he can teach 3A and his technique is adopted, it could mean great things for ladies fogure skating.

Once again, I still don't believe that Mirai is going to attempt it in competition. It makes no sense to put it in at nationals when she's never competed with it. It will be in practice only. To do otherwise is just foolish.

 

[andromache]

In the US no, it could not have been duplicated because grace always ranked higher than technical content. It's why we've lagged behind so much when IJS was instituted. However, many coaches believe that you can't teach a 3A after puberty and don't bother with it. If To, proves that he can teach 3A and his technique is adopted, it could mean great things for ladies fogure skating.

Once again, I still don't believe that Mirai is going to attempt it in competition. It makes no sense to put it in at nationals when she's never competed with it. It will be in practice only. To do otherwise is just foolish.

First off, I disagree with your assumptions regarding why the US has struggled in the IJS era. American ladies haven't worked on the 3A because to many of them have had too many other technical or consistency issues to work on, but that's not because "grace" has always ranked higher than technical content here. Just look at Rachael Flatt, who was essentially the epitome of technical content over grace - she did extremely well nationally.

I don't think it's impossible to teach 3A post-puberty, but I do believe that it's probably impossible to "get" a consistent 3A post-puberty. Then again, for a skater like Mirai, it could be a new jump like the 3A is especially beneficial because it's new - which means that bad technique has not been ingrained into her muscle memory just yet. But even if Tom Z. somehow revolutionizes figure skating by teaching a grown lady a new jump, so what? Will Ashley or Gracie or Anna (three of the top international ladies with fully-developed bodies) suddenly start doing it? It's not as if the sport was revolutionized by Raf proving he could teach Ashley to do a 3-3 at such a late age.

If some of Tom's junior or novice ladies are working on that 3A as well, then that's another story.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

However, many coaches believe that you can't teach a 3A after puberty and don't bother with it. If To, proves that he can teach 3A and his technique is adopted, it could mean great things for ladies fogure skating.

Tonya Harding was 20 when she first landed hers, and I know she attempted it before (but I don't think she attempted it in competition before puberty). Maria Butyrskaya landed many in practices, and she definitely wasn't doing them as a teenager because the flip and lutz were later additions to her jump arsenal. I think the fewer attempts reflects that skaters rarely need it to win. I think 1989 Worlds was the only World or Olympic event ever in which a skater must have had a 3A to win.

 

[frida80]

First off, I disagree with your assumptions regarding why the US has struggled in the IJS era. American ladies haven't worked on the 3A because to many of them have had too many other technical or consistency issues to work on, but that's not because "grace" has always ranked higher than technical content here. Just look at Rachael Flatt, who was essentially the epitome of technical content over grace - she did extremely well nationally.

I don't think it's impossible to teach 3A post-puberty, but I do believe that it's probably impossible to "get" a consistent 3A post-puberty. Then again, for a skater like Mirai, it could be a new jump like the 3A is especially beneficial because it's new - which means that bad technique has not been ingrained into her muscle memory just yet. But even if Tom Z. somehow revolutionizes figure skating by teaching a grown lady a new jump, so what? Will Ashley or Gracie or Anna (three of the top international ladies with fully-developed bodies) suddenly start doing it? It's not as if the sport was revolutionized by Raf proving he could teach Ashley to do a 3-3 at such a late age.

If some of Tom's junior or novice ladies are working on that 3A as well, then that's another story.

I never said the 3A was the reason US ladies struggled in IJS. I said our focus on artistic components rather than improving technically put us way behind. When IJS did come, it took us a long time to get girls that could even touch the top skaters. What are the things remember from the Mao/Yuna years? Yuna's perfect technique and massive 3Lz+3T and Mao's 3A. Until Gracie, none of our ladies could do a consistent triple triple. I think now USFSA wants to focus more on technical content rather than have a Artistic performance.

As for what Mirai 3A means for the future. Of course I doubt that Gracie or Ashley will ever attempt a 3A. It's far too late in their careers and they don't need it. No I'm looking to up and coming ladies who want to make a mark in the age of Evgenia. 12 and 13 year olds like Kaitlyn Nguyen and Audrey Shin who want to make their mark. Girls like those will most likely learn either a 3A or quad.

 

[frida80]

Tonya Harding was 20 when she first landed hers, and I know she attempted it before (but I don't think she attempted it in competition before puberty). Maria Butyrskaya landed many in practices, and she definitely wasn't doing them as a teenager because the flip and lutz were later additions to her jump arsenal. I think the fewer attempts reflects that skaters rarely need it to win. I think 1989 Worlds was the only World or Olympic event ever in which a skater must have had a 3A to win.

I never said that you need a triple axel a to win. For me this is an about winning or losing a competition but advancing the sport which has stagnated in my opinion.

 

[icellist]

I think Mirai can rotate her jumps. just not reliably in competition. She tenses up and can't snap into position fast enough in competition but looks much more relaxed and rotated even in most practices before a competition.

 

[chuckm]

I think Mirai can rotate her jumps. just not reliably in competition. She tenses up and can't snap into position fast enough in competition but looks much more relaxed and rotated even in most practices before a competition.

All the more reason why she should NOT attempt 3a at Nationals.