Pandora’s Box?2017 4cc men's figure skating

[Fayruza]

Yes, that's precisely what I said. Oh my, you've hit the nail on the head with that one. :sarcasm:

Of course you're allowed to challenge Nathan's PCS. Or any score you see. Although, evidently, nobody is allowed to use CoC as an example of poor judging or even mention the event without being labelled insensitive.

Let me see - just how many people said that judging at CoC 2014 wasn't terribly good? You choose to ignore that - and just keep saying that if Yuzuru was awarded his PCS back then, then Nathan's score is OK. Neither is, in fact.
If one instance of bad judging is an excuse for another, sorry, your logic is twisted.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Two skaters bashing their heads together, one bleeding all over and losing consciousness on the ice and the other losing consciousness off ice, then later skating is exactly the same level of an outlier as a skater doing five quads, which he's done before, and four quads before that, when another skater did four quads before him?

Yes, that's totally comparable.

Hmm ... I am smelling something strange, wonder what that is.

Note that I said 5 falls lead to 84 PCS. I didn't say bleeding, unconsciousness, etc. etc. etc. etc.

I am comparing a skate with 5 falls -- which got 8.75 and even 9's, mind you -- with a skate with 5 quads that people are complaining has no business scoring 88 PCS. (the equivalent of 8.75-9).

Say someone who never saw the collision saw this protocol: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpchn2014/gpchn2014_Men_FS_Scores.pdf And they're like, uhhh... 5 falls = the highest artistic score of the event?! I thought in figure skating if you fall, it's a bad thing. So 5 falls should be especially marked down. But why didn't this skater get marked down?

THAT is why this example is continually condemned for the bad judging and while I acknowledge the circumstances surrounding it. When I refer to CoC 2014, I'm referring specifically - and ONLY - to the judging -- not the collision, not the bleeding, not the unconsciousness, not any of that.

 

[Fayruza]

Repeat over a hundred times again, my friend. That's a nice way to derail the thread you devised here...

 

[karne]

^But at least someone could then receive the explanation that Hanyu fell five times because he was concussed, even if that doesn't excuse the garbage scoring.

Chan has no such excuse for falling four times during Skate Canada...

 

[Yatagarasu]

BTW, Hanyu's post-collision PCS did have ripple effects.
If he had placed third at Cup of China, he would not have qualified for the GPF. Jason Brown would have qualified for the sixth GPF slot ... it would have been Jason's first GPF ... sigh ...

Hanyu had 10. 82 points ahead of Dornbush as the overall result.

Try again.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Let me see - just how many people said that judging at CoC 2014 wasn't terribly good? You choose to ignore that - and just keep saying that if Yuzuru was awarded his PCS back then, then Nathan's score is OK. Neither is, in fact.
If one instance of bad judging is an excuse for another, sorry, your logic is twisted.

You're comparing the judging of a 5-fall program getting 84 PCS, which is legitimately BAD judging, to the judging of a 5-quad technically spectacular FS not being held down enough on the artistic mark so that your favourite skater could win. i.e. it's only bad judging if it's another skater being the beneficiary, and if it's a horrific circumstance, then we should dismiss the bad judging altogether.

Basically, the CoC 2014 judging was horrendous (never mind the collision/etc. etc.) - the judging was truly awful. The judging at 4CC 2017 was not awful in comparison -- it's not like Nathan skated poorly and got 88... he was also kept sub-90. It is debatable as to whether Chen should have scored as high as 88, but it certainly was NOT propped up nearly as much as Hanyu's PCS was propped up at CoC 2014 (and the SP too, at that - 2 major errors and still the highest PCS).

My point it, if a skater could be propped up so massively for such an error-riddled program, then a skater going almost clean with way higher difficulty getting PCS for a technically astounding FS like that - though not 90+ top tier level - isn't nearly as egregious as some people have made it out to be. And it's hypocritical to saying this skater's (Chen's) PCS should be reduced so your favourite skater can win, but then disregard a prior competition where your favourite skater was held up on PCS (the very thing you're condemning Chen for).

I think we can all agree there were varying degrees of extremely bad judging but 2014 CoC and 2017 4CC are not even close to each other on that scale.

 

[ice coverage]

... Osmond fell 5 times in her FS at Skate Canada 2015... as a result of a horrific fall in her SP. If she were as popular as Hanyu at the time and got equivalent CoC judging treatment (84% PCS), her PCS would have been around 65-67 instead of 55 (which, IMO, was also still generous). At least she was placed last in the segment, and that's because the judges marked down her PCS - never mind her injury, never mind that she was on home ice. For Hanyu to have still been ahead of Ge, Nguyen and Dornbush in the FS segment (and arguably, Dornbush overall), was really bad judging. Ge was practically clean and his components were 10 points behind a guy who fell 5 times, Nam was almost clean with a quad and two 3As but his components were 16 points behind a guy who fell 5 times.

As horrific as the collision was, it's not all about Hanyu and Yan -- the judges still had a job to do, and had to be fair to the other competitors who were present, and fair in their assessment of all athletes. The circumstances leading up to the bad judging doesn't absolve the judges of poor scoring, nor does it automatically dismiss this event from the conversation surrounding bad judging.

Hanyu had 10. 82 points ahead of Dornbush as the overall result. ...

LOL, I already had double-checked the size of the gap btwn Hanyu and Dornbush before my comment about the GPF.

As CSG pointed out, Osmond lost at least ten points of PCS for her five falls.

So it is not ridiculous to suggest that fair scoring would have put Hanyu below Dornbush overall.

 

[Fayruza]

You're comparing the judging of a 5-fall program getting 84 PCS, which is legitimately BAD judging, to the judging of a 5-quad technically spectacular FS not being held down enough on the artistic mark so that your favourite skater could win. i.e. it's only bad judging if it's another skater being the beneficiary, and if it's a horrific circumstance, then we should dismiss the bad judging altogether.

Basically, the CoC 2014 judging was horrendous (never mind the collision/etc. etc.) - the judging was truly awful. The judging at 4CC 2017 was not awful in comparison -- it's not like Nathan skated poorly and got 88... he was also kept sub-90. It is debatable as to whether Chen should have scored as high as 88, but it is certainly was propped up nearly as much as Hanyu's PCS was propped up at CoC 2014 (and the SP too, at that - 2 major errors and still the highest PCS). My point it, if a skater could be propped up so massively for a 5-fall program, then a skater going almost clean getting PCS for a technically astounding FS like that - and still having transitions/choreo, though not 90+ top tier level - isn't nearly as egregious as some people have suggested it was.

Hello, I never said Yuzu should have won - I'm perfectly OK with his coming second, thank you very much - no problem for me. But the emptiness of Nathan's LP is glaringly obvious, sorry - jump-set-up-jump-set-up-jump-set-up - so I have every right to question his PCS.
And yeah, one case of bad judging is a perfect excuse for another case of bad judging for you. I'll remember this when you choose to rant over Yuzuru Hanyu's score next time - it seems you're perfectly all right with anyone else's overscoring.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I am comparing a skate with 5 falls -- which got 8.75 and even 9's, mind you -- with a skate with 5 quads that people are complaining has no business scoring 88 PCS. (the equivalent of 8.75-9).

Oh ffs, how can any human beings skull be this thick? And people agree that Yuzu should not have scored these PCS back then. So what is there to still prove with this argument? How does Yuzu's CoC PCS in any way relate to Nathans PCS here or if they are justified or whatever?

I'd say CSG got his goal, he completely derailed this thread (and ignored all the other stuff he's being asked about). It's enough CoC talk for me, especially since it's just repetition at this point.

 

[Yatagarasu]

Say someone who never saw the collision saw this protocol: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpchn2014/gpchn2014_Men_FS_Scores.pdf And they're like, uhhh... 5 falls = the highest artistic score of the event?! I thought in figure skating if you fall, it's a bad thing. So 5 falls should be especially marked down. But why didn't this skater get marked down?

And then, like any reasonable person, they'll look up information on CoC 2014, see what happened, and as any reasonable person, very strong emphasis on reasonable, they'll realize why that particular competition should not be looked at as normal circumstances because accidents like that, which are very much out of the ordinary, tend to throw everything out of whack. It truly was an outlier, due to circumstances very much out of the norm for a skating singles competition.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Hello, I never said Yuzu should have won - I'm perfectly OK with his coming second, thank you very much - no problem for me. But the emptiness of Nathan's LP is glaringly obvious, sorry - jump-set-up-jump-set-up-jump-set-up - so I have every right to question his PCS.
And yeah, one case of bad judging is a perfect excuse for another case of bad judging for you. I'll remember this when you choose to rant over Yuzuru Hanyu's score next time - it seems you're perfectly all right with anyone else's overscoring.

That's your option regarding the emptiness.

It's not about him coming in second. He was also second in the FS over guys who performed way better than him. It's demoralizing to a skater like Ge, Dornbush or Nam who skate their hearts out and are still placed behind a guy who falls 5 times. And that's not Hanyu's fault at all. That is the judges fault. Again, condemning the judges, not the skater.

And I'm not cool with anyone getting overscored. I've acknowledged 2013 Worlds was bs, and I'm a Chan fan. I've acknowledged 2014 Worlds was bs as a Kostner fan (over Pogo). Bad judging is bad judging and needs to be called out. But crying out "the judging was bad" when a skater actually did well, and trivializing their win because your fave didn't win... that's not cool either.

 

[Mrs. P]

Um....what happened to this thread?

 

[Yatagarasu]

LOL, I already had double-checked the size of the gap btwn Hanyu and Dornbush before my comment about the GPF.
As CSG pointed out, Osmond lost at least ten points of PCS for her five falls.
So it is not ridiculous to suggest that fair scoring would have put Hanyu below Dornbush overall.

Yes, of course you have.

And really, it is ridiculous.

But I do congratulate both you and CSG on derailing the thread. The sad fact for both of you is that GS aside, this talk is happening in many places, especially after AWG and it will more than likely continue to happen with an even stronger intensity post Worlds. You cannot derail that, no matter how much you try because people are neither blind nor stupid about what's happening with Nathan's scores.

 

[Pamigena]

Um....what happened to this thread?

the usual :sarcasm:

 

[Ares]

CSG's point is valid to me.

Collision or no collision, the job of the judges was to give scores to the free skate that Hanyu presented.
(And as always, scores that do not cut any slack to an injured skater.)

Obviously, the collision was dangerous. Hanyu chose to go forward with competing -- without anyone requiring or asking him to.
If any official could have intervened, it was the referee, not the judges.
Whether Hanyu should have competed after the collision was not a decision for the judges to make. And the question should not have been a consideration for the judges as they were giving scores.

So what I wrote before in this thread still holds water. I don't think it is ok to point out at others' faves (like CanadianSkaterGuy) did to make your point. Some ridiculous scoring of Hanyu from 2014 CoC does not make Chen's scoring justified and neither makes Yuzuru fans hypocrites. I don't see majority of Yuzuru fans trivializing Nathan either. Moreover I do wonder whether arguing with this poster in this specific discussion makes sense.

 

[Fayruza]

That's your option regarding the emptiness.

It's not about him coming in second. He was also second in the FS over guys who performed way better than him. It's demoralizing to a skater like Ge, Dornbush or Nam who skate their hearts out and are still placed behind a guy who falls 5 times. And that's not Hanyu's fault at all. That is the judges fault. Again, condemning the judges, not the skater.

And I'm not cool with anyone getting overscored. I've acknowledged 2013 Worlds was bs, and I'm a Chan fan. I've acknowledged 2014 Worlds was bs as a Kostner fan (over Pogo). Bad judging is bad judging and needs to be called out. But crying out "the judging was bad" when a skater actually did well, and trivializing their win because your fave didn't win... that's not cool either.

Hello, I was referring to this year's 4CC, not CoC2014- I'm perfectly OK with Yuzu coming second there. No questionable winning in the way it happened to Chan loads of times. Back in 2014 I was past caring whether Yuzu came last - I just wanted him out. That's it. I still shudder when I think about it.
Don't bloody ascribe opinions to me which are not mine.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

That's your option regarding the emptiness.

It's not about him coming in second. He was also second in the FS over guys who performed way better than him. It's demoralizing to a skater like Ge, Dornbush or Nam who skate their hearts out and are still placed behind a guy who falls 5 times. And that's not Hanyu's fault at all. That is the judges fault. Again, condemning the judges, not the skater.

And I'm not cool with anyone getting overscored. I've acknowledged 2013 Worlds was bs, and I'm a Chan fan. I've acknowledged 2014 Worlds was bs as a Kostner fan (over Pogo). Bad judging is bad judging and needs to be called out. But crying out "the judging was bad" when a skater actually did well, and trivializing their win because your fave didn't win... that's not cool either.

That you are still writing this, despite Fayruza specifically telling you she is fine with Nathan winning 4CC. Reading/comprehension skills - helping... some people, since middle school

And you're not 'fair' and 'criticizing any overscoring the same way' in the least, don't give me this crap. You literally went on for pages about how horrible Yuzuru's score was at 2015 nationals, while simultaneously defending Maxim Kovtuns 2015 nationals score with "it's nationals, of course he's overscored" :sarcasm:

 

[ice coverage]

... It truly was an outlier, due to circumstances very much out of the norm for a skating singles competition.

The original phrase from Lys (re Hanyu) was "outlier for its circumstances."

Per https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/outlier, "An outlier refers to anything that strays from, or isn’t part of, the norm."

IMO, "outlier for its circumstances" is an apt description (for a different reason) for Nathan's FS at Four Continents as well. YMMV.

 

[unico]

I'm not even arguing with the results but some of the logical fallacies in this thread are astonishing. WARNING: LONG POST :eeking:

THAT is why this example is continually condemned for the bad judging and while I acknowledge the circumstances surrounding it. When I refer to CoC 2014, I'm referring specifically - and ONLY - to the judging -- not the collision, not the bleeding, not the unconsciousness, not any of that.

What people are arguing is that you can't separate the circumstances of a bloody and terrifying collision from the results. In fact, a few weeks later at NHK, Hanyu fell once in his LP and got lower PCS than at Cup of China. Harping on it over and over is not proving your point, use a different example. Plenty exist.

If the assessment is objective, you wouldn't see so many different people give different opinions on the GOE, SS and TR. Those are also subjective because different people give different weight to different quality & features. Nobody has all the qualities. Depending on which quality or feature that person values more, you will see different scores being given to the same element or skill. If it's absolutely objective, you won't see so many differences in the scores on GOE, SS and TR from different judges and fans.

There exists such things as national/cultural bias or concerted efforts to undermark or overmark which go beyond "subjectivity". Not saying it happened here (although the American judge giving higher PCS to Chen than Hanyu is noteworthy), but it exists, so this argument isn't bulletproof. See: 2002 Olympics.

ETA: What I'm saying is that a person's judgement through live performance is still a subjective assessment based on his/her preferences and values. That kind of assessment isn't objective in anyway. But some people think a live performance assessment is some kind of objective assessment.

The point isn't that people are completely objective when watching live, but that you're getting the purest and closest view point similar to the judges when you're able to watch live, therefore you're able to make assessments that cameras hide or exacerbate, especially things like speed and ice coverage. Because of that, your view is more objective than your view watching through cameras. Of course nobody is completely objective but you can get closer to it with live viewing, so live reports can be really informative.

But Shoma has been labeled as an artist whereas Nathan hasn't. FWIW, it's clear that Shoma's focus on the jumps has lowered the quality of his performances in comparison to last year, but his ability to do the insane number of and types of quads means he gets a PCS boost, too.

Nathan has performed better and better with each competition this season, but everyone wants to pretend that he isn't working on his PCS because it suits their narrative .

In a perfect world, PCS would've ranked the men at 4CCs in the following order:

Patrick>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hanyu>>Jason>>>>>>>>>>>>Shoma>>>>>>Nathan>>>>>Boyang

Only a world in which tech determines PCS to some extent (as it does now) can Hanyu receives higher scores in SS than Patrick Chan. And yet we've all accepted that that is the case. But Nathan gets PCS boost and it's the end of the world.

1) Uno's scores have been argued ad nauseum. Same like Brown's, who is even more of the "artist" archetype.
2) Would you genuinely argue that Chen's LP was better performed than at Nationals and GPF where landings and spins were much more secure and clean?
3) So because PCS is all wrong anyway, we shouldn't argue about Chen? Improper judging of Chan means that Chen received proper judging isn't a solid argument.
4) Everyone has their own narrative, and your interpretation also suits your own narrative, as you put it. I think it's better to argue on the merits of the performances than the merits of the narratives of the posters.

And I'm not cool with anyone getting overscored. I've acknowledged 2013 Worlds was bs, and I'm a Chan fan. I've acknowledged 2014 Worlds was bs as a Kostner fan (over Pogo). Bad judging is bad judging and needs to be called out. But crying out "the judging was bad" when a skater actually did well, and trivializing their win because your fave didn't win... that's not cool either.

Critiques of judging shouldn't just be limited to when the skaters do well or do bad. Come ooooooooooooooon. You can be the best employee ever and still have to go through performance reviews and still adhere to the rules. Narrowing down people's arguments into "your fav this, your fav that!" is so petulant.

Hanyu had 10. 82 points ahead of Dornbush as the overall result.

Try again.

But that's totally not the same as arguing that Hanyu should receive X points over Chen in order to win, right? Hanyu should have scored 10.83 points lower to be in 3rd! That's not double standards at all! Here, look at my completely objective math calculations. (This is sarcasm.)

 

[Yatagarasu]

IMO, "outlier for its circumstances" is an apt description (for a different reason) for Nathan's FS at Four Continents as well. YMMV.

That is simply factually incorrect.
Nathan had already skated a 4 and a 5 quad program. Before him, Hanyu showed a 4 quad program (and attempted five).

Now if Nathan had done all jumping passes with quads, I'd consider it. If he had suddenly shown a quint, that'd certainly have been out of the norm. But a program skated before, that held just one quad more compared to two programs before it, and that everyone was already aware of, is not out of the norm.

But that's totally not the same as arguing that Hanyu should receive X points over Chen in order to win, right? Hanyu should have scored 10.83 points lower to be in 3rd! That's not double standards at all! Here, look at my completely objective math calculations. (This is sarcasm.)

No, it is not.
Hanyu's PCS at CoC 2014 were over-scored. Literally nobody is denying that here but nothing would have changed if he had received the correct PCS. The order would have been the same, thanks to the huge advantage.

Now that we've cleared that up, if you are still having trouble understanding why that one time event cannot be compared to the situation of PCS inflation and that people here aren't arguing that Hanyu should receive X points over Chen in order to win after all the posts in this thread, then really, there is no-one here that can help you further. And possibly, no-one at all.