Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

They all have that option available to them.

Why not allow each athlete to make the decision that works best for him or her?

Every-four-years audiences will be seeing almost all new-to-them programs in any case.

Whose responsibility should it be to make sure that avid fans are entertained with new programs from their favorite skaters every year? The individual skaters'? The judges', by penalizing repeats? The ISU technical committees? (well, the short dance requirements ensure that short dances don't often get recycled, but then you have the problem of multiple teams choosing the same music in the same year) The TV networks? (how?)

Yeah, and it's totally their prerogative to do whatever programs they feel comfortable with. Fans can be mad, but it's the skaters' career at the end of the day.

Although, how much repeating is too much repeating? If a skater repeats a program 2 times? 3 times? 5 times? Their entire career?

 

[Violet Bliss]

Yeah, and it's totally their prerogative to do whatever programs they feel comfortable with. Fans can be mad, but it's the skaters' career at the end of the day.

Although, how much repeating is too much repeating? If a skater repeats a program 2 times? 3 times? 5 times? Their entire career?

Some skaters seem to be skating the same programs their entire careers, just to different music.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

You have to ask Joubert if he saved a ton of money and training time.

Hah, well, he did repeat a LOT of programs (arguably the one who did it the most), so he must have. His Clubbed to Death Matrix music was his only 3-peat though (and the 3rd instance was almost 5 seasons after the 2nd one, when he was struggling to find a program he was comfortable with). Which is a bit different than a 3-peat within the same quadrennial. My main issue with his skating was that his style never really evolved or changed. His music might change, but he'd still skate pretty much the same. Again, skaters don't owe it to us to change things up program-wise or overall skating-wise... but it still doesn't reprieve them from criticism for it.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Some skaters seem to be skating the same programs their entire careers, just to different music.

While I'm definitely not a fan of that, either... but not every skater develops artistically or has the same sense of originality or creativity.

I'm curious as to how Seimei and Chopin (and other guys who are repeating their past programs) will be made different in this Olympic season -- and I'm referring to outside of the elements.

 

[andromache]

at the end of the day figure skating is a sport that is comprised of fine art elements. This may be a little confusing to some but what this means is that when a skater finds a piece of music that they have been able to showcase said elements to the best of their abilities it would be stupid not to use it in the biggest competition of their lives. you can go on and on about "Artistic integrity" and "laziness" but the skaters do not owe you new programs, in fact the only thing they owe are good results and the only entity they owe anything to are to their own Feds.

I don't think anyone here has questioned Hanyu's artistic integrity or accused him of laziness. You're making that up out of thin air.

I'm curious as to how many people lauding Hanyu for his programs choices this season how ever dragged Javier for his use of many character-themed programs.....

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I mean...reusing the same two programs from two years ago, both of which have already been skating perfectly and beautifully, is an extremely unusual choice. One might even call the choice ridiculous. There's no need to get offended over it.

Yeah, I don't think they meant ridiculous as worthy of mockery. They meant it as in it's strange and unorthodox, and even open to criticism. People use the word ridiculous a lot around here, and it usually just refers to something they disagree with or find isn't in the norm. There's having two repeat programs in a season... and having two repeat programs from the same previous season... and then there's having two repeat programs from the same season that have already been skated perfectly. Certainly quite ridic-... sorry, unorthodox.

 

[evasorange]

I used the word ridiculous in the program discipline thread and I 100 percent stand by that! It is ridiculous,I honestly think it should be against the rules to repeat a program three seaons. one of the main arguments I see in defense of the two repeats is "now it can be done better, we will see a new interpretation" but was anyone on earth really wondering if Seimei and Chopin, programs that broke the world record MULTIPLE times, could be made new and better?! It really exposes how shook Yuzuru must be over the new guys and their endless quads. Obviously as a really big fan I like when Yuzu wins, and I root for him at every competition but I hope he gets some serious pushback this season from the guys who are challenging themselves with new content.

 

[Jaana]

I welcome Hanyu´s Olympic season programs!!! Have to admit not remembering that he has skated to Chopin earlier and about Seimei I remember only the name..., because it is such unusual word and also one which is easy to remember, IMO.

 

[gkelly]

I honestly think it should be against the rules to repeat a program three seaons.

Again, how could this be enforced?

How would "repeating a program" be defined, and who would be responsible for keeping track and applying penalties?

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Honestly, at this point I just hope Yuzu repeats an old EX* too. The only way this can get more worthy.


(*= that is not Bieber. I repeat, that is not Bieber).

 

[Sorrento]

Well, his doesn't surprise me if certain people have thrown shade at Uno for repeating Turandot (and don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of him doing it either), but have a double standard when it comes to Yuzuru or other skaters repeating past program. Basically, be consistent. If you're going to flay a skater for repeating a program, it should apply to all. Although, bringing back one program is far less unorthodox than bringing back two (and from the same season at that).

And to answer Andromache's comment, I would absolutely be fine with him bringing back just Seimei (thrilled, in fact - because yes, more people need to see that particular program). But he could have done something other than Chopin for his SP - it'll be his SP for 3 out of the past 4 seasons. He's not resting on his laurels (I mean, his difficulty will be cray), but he's certainly not challenging himself the way other guys showcasing new program(s) are.

I agree with you on the most of what you have said here but let me ask you this: why new program is exactly a challenge, an artistical challenge? Do they choose to perform to a music style that is very unusual, alien to them? Skaters don't experiment like that. You need to like the peice you are skating to- you'll have to listen to it so many times that it shouldn't drive you crazy. And it should help a skater to achieve his or her sport goals. So honestly- new program and new music (to me) is not a challenge, especially in Olympic season when everyone wants to portray the best version of themselves using the music that would serve this matter. Everyone is playing safe, just check the music that has been already declared by all top skaters in all disciplines. It's the technical aspect that would be a challenge for all of them with no exception.

 

[Sorrento]

I used the word ridiculous in the program discipline thread and I 100 percent stand by that! It is ridiculous,I honestly think it should be against the rules to repeat a program three seaons. one of the main arguments I see in defense of the two repeats is "now it can be done better, we will see a new interpretation" but was anyone on earth really wondering if Seimei and Chopin, programs that broke the world record MULTIPLE times, could be made new and better?! It really exposes how shook Yuzuru must be over the new guys and their endless quads. Obviously as a really big fan I like when Yuzu wins, and I root for him at every competition but I hope he gets some serious pushback this season from the guys who are challenging themselves with new content.

Only new content is all that matters to you? Well, his content is new as well.

 

[NoNameFace]

You're welcome, and also thanks for confirming you do cherry pick. Your words



So this is factually incorrect. The previous thread had some harsh words said about Yuzuru, so no, the commentators there did not take just "any" opinion negatively (as it was actually pointed out there).

The simple fact of the matter is that Yuzuru Hanyu does not owe you anything. Literally nothing. You are not his sponsors, not his coach, not his team. That you, or anyone else is disappointed, is your problem, not his.
And I actually, like many others, do not have an issue with this disappointment (or simple disagreement with repeated programs) being expressed. Quite a few Hanyu fans are disappointed as well; new programs are limited after all, especially as he's probably nearing retirement so there is that. Or simply put, they just dislike repeated programs. Or they disliked these particular programs, so are unhappy, even if usually repeating may not bother them. Many people, many reasons and this is all normal, we're human. Nobody will like everything, even as a fan, never mind if they're not.

This is all fine and well, and you'll find this talk has been going on since Chopin was announced. But there's a difference between that and either acting as if Yuzuru actually owes it to them to fulfill their desires or simply going after Yuzuru, as is par for the course for some. Not to mention, generalizing Hanyu fans, ignoring what is being written, etc.

And well, when you post your "'arbitrary individual' opinion" in which you paint an entire group of people with a certain brush, chances are, you'll get another "arbitrary individual opinion" as an answer.

again, it's your choice, your freedom to take out my particular words and interpret/see them in that 'cherry picking' way, but I will repeat that 'usually' is a key word there, if you're sticking to that quote. I did not say by those word - or any other ones - that ALL of non-enthusiastic opinions about Yuzuru repeating his programs were ALWAYS taken as a hate/critique/negativity by those having different opinion. Moreover - I did not give myself a right and a priviledge to ever judge those 'going after' non-enthusiastic opinions to say generally and to opine on their motives/reasoning. If anyone felt/feels 'geeralized', offended by this quote of mine, or any words of mine used in this thread, I apologise - the intention of this 'arbitrary individual quote' was to express my feelings about the tendency I see there and how I receive the 'movement' of discussion seen there, not Yuzuru's decision even, to whom I have a respect, already expressed.

Also, there is some confusion for me seeing you have no issue with disappointment and then stating that 'Yuzuru Hanyu does not owe you anything' and so on. Firstly, I am aware that Yuzuru - or any other skater - is not audience's desires prisoner and I nowhere stated that Yuzuru 'owes' anything to anyone, as he never was supposed to do that even. Actually, I feel quite the opposite myself - he's at such point of his athletic and artistic self-cosciousness and a person, skater and performer to not really bother about what others are saying. He's already a creator, not only an imitator of movement, music or expression and that's giving him an extra freedom in terms of decisions like this about 'Seimei' FS. And yes - 'my disappointment' is 'my problem' only, but I'm just surprised that some people seem to treat is as their problem too or to question others' right to express that feeling at all.

And about 'cherry picking'...People here or elsewhere will 'pick' up stuff they see as 'convenient' or right up their alley and looking at the other side of the barricade - well, what about critique/negativity/hate/shade expressed by some over other skaters than Yuzuru re-using their programs, a distaste over re-using particular music/programs by other skaters, generalizations that some expressing mere disappointment about sole decision to use 'Seimei' FS are going after Yuzuru? Vive la difference, but in equal measure and with being respectful.

as I said - apologies for anyone who got offended by anything I posted there

 

[kiches]

While I'm definitely not a fan of that, either... but not every skater develops artistically or has the same sense of originality or creativity.

I'm curious as to how Seimei and Chopin (and other guys who are repeating their past programs) will be made different in this Olympic season -- and I'm referring to outside of the elements.

You can see what Chopin looked like when he skated at Fantasy on Ice this summer, could be other changes made as this was in May and June.

Chopin from Fantasy on Ice in Makuhari (May)
[May 26th Performance] [May 28th Performance (clean)]

Chopin from Fantasy on Ice in Niigata (June)
[June 18th Performance]

There hasn't been enough footage of Seimei to tell how similar or different the program is as a whole, but there's enough of Chopin for me to say that I enjoyed it a lot and I found the feeling it gave to be different from his last two clean performances of it in 2015/2016. Of the links I shared the clean performance of it is the most technically impressive, but I'm partial to the video from Niigata since he introduced some gorgeous hand movements into his spin that was well complimented by the lighting (but the rest of the camera work is pretty bad).

I think as long as a skater can improve upon their program then generally I will be okay with them repeating it so long as there is still something to be gained (although I don't think every repeated program has shown improvement). Some may think that Chopin and Seimei were skated perfectly in 2015/2016 and can't really be improved upon. My personal take was that Seimei could be improved upon, but that Chopin was skated to near perfection. So while I'm a Yuzu fan, I too, was disappointed to hear he was repeating Chopin again since I wanted to see more collaborations with Jeff Buttle (I'm mostly neutral on repeating Seimei, though). After watching these show versions it did change my opinion a bit as I did think there was enough change to show an improvement, and it's not like it was any less beautiful because it was a program he'd done before.

For another example, I hadn't followed Boyang Jin's junior career very closely, but I did watch him since his final junior year and remembered being surprised that he repeated his Tango Amore SP and How to Train Your Dragon 2 FS his first senior year. I liked Tango Amore but wasn't quite sure why they kept How to Train Your Dragon as a program as it wasn't particularly exciting. Maybe it would've been to his benefit to change programs that season, maybe not, but he did come away with the bronze medal at Worlds and then went on to try different programs the season after since there were other aspects of his skating that needed to be improved that those programs probably wouldn't have addressed. Since 2016/2017 was the first season he's worked with Lori, maybe repeating those programs before was what he was able to do with the resources at his disposal at the time (I honestly don't know).

As a personal story, it was a repeat program (Yuzuru's Parisienne Walkways SP) that hooked me into this sport. I saw it on TV for the first time during the team event in Sochi and at the time I had no idea he had done the program the season before. When I watched the first version of that program some time after, I could clearly see the difference even though all the jump elements are the same, yet I'm not sure if I had seen that version first if it would've caught my attention the same way it did when he repeated it even though he had a lot of success with it the first season. In that case, I'm glad he repeated that program for the Olympics and polished it to what it became, otherwise I probably would've remained a casual fan only watching every four years. Each skater wants to find the right vehicle to showcase their ability and gain points, for some that vehicle may be a new program, for others it may be a repeat. We will just have to see how things unfold to judge how successful these strategies turn out to be, and if we're lucky we'll get to see some amazing performances on the biggest stage.

 

[andromache]

So honestly- new program and new music (to me) is not a challenge, especially in Olympic season when everyone wants to portray the best version of themselves using the music that would serve this matter. Everyone is playing safe, just check the music that has been already declared by all top skaters in all disciplines. It's the technical aspect that would be a challenge for all of them with no exception.

Tell that to anyone who has ever had to memorize new choreography and every little nuance in a new piece of music, as well as figure out how to most effectively present and interpret the theme of a particular piece.

I guess learning the Prince SP for Yuzuru was soooooooooooo easy and not at all a challenge.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Tell that to anyone who has ever had to memorize new choreography and every little nuance in a new piece of music, as well as figure out how to most effectively present and interpret the theme of a particular piece.

We all accept early season errors and inadequate interpretation of the music but expect the program to progress and mature as the season goes on. Skaters hope to peak at the last competition of the season. They also often phase in more difficult technical contents as they progress through the season. Often a program is repeated because the skater feels its potential has not been achieved, due to a shortened season for various reasons. Yes, it's obvious a new program is much more of a challenge and a risk.

However, I wouldn't criticize Hanyu's decision since everybody should do what s/he deems best for the Olympic glory. As well, I assume he's adding jumps, so there will be modification.

The ultimate goal is to win, which depends on many factors, including those out of the competitor's control.

 

[riminin]

Why is it necessary for fans to decide how many repetitions are too many? For what? Some of you sound like you are paying for their programs and entitled to get entertained. So ridiculous. They are amateur athletes remember...I, knowing nothing about this sport, saw Hanyu's SP at Sochi just by coincidence and thought it fantastic, next moment I was a fan and didn't care if it was a repeated program or not. I even didn't have that concept. I didn't know Shizuka's Turandot was a repeated program either but it also fascinated me. Millions of people who watch Olympics are just like that.

Hanyu must have been working out very hard and sincerely how to win the Olympic Gold for himself in this increasingly competitive men's field. And this is his answer. And it's not like he's stagnating. If he thought he could do clean 7 quad programs with Hanyu-worthy quality with new music and totally new choreography I honestly believe he would have done that. But this is a tall order and even Hanyu has his limitations and it's about all or nothing for his competitive life. So why don't some of you stop being over-critical of his realistic strategy to reach the dream of his life and support him instead? Why are new programs so important for some of you? I think he's determined to skate cleanly partly due to his suboptimal FS outing at Sochi. That disappointment sits deeply in him. Who can blame that when he wants to avoid that this time? I don't think many of you were indulgent and forgiving about how he performed the FS. As far as I saw from the shows and news clips both programs will be powerful and compelling, with impeccable quads. I totally look forward to his first competition!

 

[Mrs. P]

So I'd love to get this off Yuzu; I think everyone's said their piece regarding this. I really would love somebody to answer my earlier question: Have there been other periods in skating history where skaters repeated their programs more frequently?

I believe Viktor Petrenko repeated his FS several times? And someone mentioned that Surya Bonaly did a FS three times. I seem to recall that the late 1980s and early 1990s were a period of major change in the sport, namely with the end of compulsery figures and the last major technical growth spurt, especially among the men (where 3As and harder triple combinations became more commonplace).

GKelly mentioned that Dick Button often repeated programs (or at least that was implied) and Button was a technical pioneer for the sport having done the first 2A among the men and other triples.

So it does seem like there may be a correlation between technical content advancement and skaters' decisions to repeat programs more frequently.

 

[andromache]

So I'd love to get this off Yuzu; I think everyone's said their piece regarding this. I really would love somebody to answer my earlier question: Have there been other periods in skating history where skaters repeated their programs more frequently?

I believe Viktor Petrenko repeated his FS several times? And someone mentioned that Surya Bonaly did a FS three times. I seem to recall that the late 1980s and early 1990s were a period of major change in the sport, namely with the end of compulsery figures and the last major technical growth spurt, especially among the men (where 3As and harder triple combinations became more commonplace).

GKelly mentioned that Dick Button often repeated programs (or at least that was implied) and Button was a technical pioneer for the sport having done the first 2A among the men and other triples.

So it does seem like there may be a correlation between technical content advancement and skaters' decisions to repeat programs more frequently.

I'm actually wondering if, in the era when figures were paramount, the free skating program(s) were just considered far less important. When you're practicing figures however many hours a day because they're 80% (just making that number up) of your score, who really cares about the part that is only worth 20%?

 

[Violet Bliss]

I'm actually wondering if, in the era when figures were paramount, the free skating program(s) were just considered far less important. When you're practicing figures however many hours a day because they're 80% (just making that number up) of your score, who really cares about the part that is only worth 20%?

Once upon the time, figure/artistic skating was all about what the blades did on the ice. Nowadays it is what happens when the blades are off the ice that matters.