2014 Worlds - Free Dance

[WeakAnkles]

Oh Doris... what would the world do without a scientist like you? All mired in subjective, wishful thinking. We need truth!

Totally. I never understood the argument that a hop, which is UP, is somehow going to increase your speed forward. And now I know why! I feel much smarter today.

And frankly I went back to look at programs. The little hops seem to be characteristic of both Marina's and Igor's choreography, and seem to be used not only for musical emphasis, but for small turns within a larger pattern. And it seems like ALL of their teams do it, to a greater or lesser extent.

 

[BlackPack]

Hops not only add excitement but they're also difficult and dangerous. It's hard enough to stand still on the ice in very hard skates... jumping on the ice is a difficult maneuver.

 

[carey579]

My nickname for him is Ken Doll.

Thanks YagsFan for the compliment.

That's a great compliment to Nikita actually.

IMO he's the sexiest ice dancer today and also the best candidate to take the reigns after King Charlie White.

 

[WeakAnkles]

That's a great compliment to Nikita actually.

IMO he's the sexiest ice dancer today and also the best candidate to take the reigns after King Charlie White.

Well he wouldn't make my top ten, but De gustibus non est disputandum.

 

[Ryan O]

Yes, she has improved but she is, still, pretty bad. Being as vested in Poirier as you are, I think you are missing the forest for the trees. He is pulling her up into the top 10, not a result reflective of the "team" effort". With three top teams not skating, top 10 result is by attrition.

"Not many girls would be good enough to skate with Paul Poirier" - really???? What kind of skating super hero is he?

What I mean about not many girls could skate with Poirier is that there are only a small number of ice dance girls at his level in Canada. Other than Kaitlyn Weaver & Alexandra Paul, what other female ice dancer currently competing in Canada is as strong as he is? (I guess we could include Tessa Virtue since she's not officially retired). The same situation applies to the other top guys too - most ice dance girls in Canada are not at the level that Poje & Islam are. I just mentioned Poirier because he's the one under discussion in relation to Piper.

And it is a team effort, btw, because Paul would not be where he is this month without Piper. He's very talented, but like a lot of people in a competitive sport, he gets stressed and anxious and is a perfectionist. Piper's personality and friendship with him have helped him relax and work better.

Btw, I've also seen threads (including on FSU) were some people have suggested that Asher Hill should drop Kharis Ralph. Some people think he's stronger than she is and that he should shop around for someone else. What surprises me about this is that I'd assume most skating observers would know there are only a handful of skaters in a country who can skate at the top of the Senior Dance level. You can't just find another partner the way you pick a loaf of bread off a shelf in a store.

 

[BlackPack]

Piper Gilles may have started out as a weaker skater than many top ice dancers, but I think she will get there. C&L weren't considered naturally talented either but they're World Championships now. Like I said before, it's not always about natural ability and having Patrick Chan or Tessa-esque knee bend that makes a champion ice dancer; the total packaging - the disguising of weaknesses, magnification of strengths, costuming, music, choreographer, nerves to perform all these elements perfectly under pressure, judges' favor, astute coaching, work ethic, partnership compatibility, etc. that determine the winners.

 

[emdee]

I agree that Piper has made tremendous strides in the last year. She does has a way to go too. I remember when Kaitlin had the same issues and she has come a very long way.

 

[KKonas]

Both Evan and Madison are World Jr. champs with other partners so their basic skating is solid, despite those who think they know better. They have not been together so long and Evan has worked hard on the height difference and continues to improve so it is less distracting. I expect them to continue to improve and be on the international podium soon.

 

[sisinka]

Also I do not think Evan Bates is as bad a skater as you paint him. Check out his ability to hold speed and a really good curved edge going backwards on one foot while lifting Madison while she changes positions in a most astonishing way. What you see in his basic skating is the fact that he is still in the process of learning to match his movements to Madison's, given that she is much shorter than his previous partner. They have only been paired for a relatively short time, the same or less than Gilles & Poirier. You write as though he will not be able to improve at all, and that is seldom true of any athlete that really works on a problem.

And saying you would give him a 5 for skating skills is too harsh. You are saying that C&B are so bad that they should not qualify to skate the free dance, since a team's skating skills is to be judged at the level of the weaker of the two team members. If you check the SD protocols, you will find that teams that get a 5 for skating skills go home without skating the FD. That is not to say that Evan is a Scott Moir in the making, but he is not Florian Roost either.

First I would like to excuse if I made my words looking like that Evan will never improve. That is definitely not what I wanted to say. I described situation how I see it know. But I never had in mind that Evan would stay on this level. I expect that a couple will train hard to improve their skating, Madison is good, Evan is poor technician, she needs to improve to get on level of for example all three top Russians, Kaitlyn…and Evan needs to improve more than Madison to keep her level and to keep level of top dancers.

Looking at lifts – they are both very good, Evan is balancing well, his rotations in lifts are normal I would say (not great), but overall he is very good in lifts…and Madison is helping him being small enought and she is talented as to lifts (coming into it, keeping balance in difficult positions etc.) – simply I can say only nice words about the couple as to lifts. But I am not very optimistic about the idea that lifts are saying much about partners skating skills. Yes, it leads to an opinion that if you can balance yourself with your lady in your arms well, then you are skilled very well…but I see Coomes & Buckland having great lifts and that is a couple with very poor technique. So I don’t think that great skating skills and great lifts are necessary to go hand in hand.
I realise that his height is not an advantage if a couple skates close together, but it can’t excuse that he bends his upper body forward, they he doesn’t extend free leg, that he has poor knee action, that he is not sure in his skating…he is doing all of this even while skating in open holds or not in touch with Madison.

As to mark 5 for Skating Skills for Evan…this means (looking at Handbook for judges) an average skating skills, which I persist that Evan has so far. But I DEFINITELY DON’T AGREE WITH THE WAY JUDGES GIVE THOSE MARKS TO ALL COUPLES. I don’t understand why are judges so generous. I would put a couple like Shtork & Rand with poor Skating Skills meaning 2 points (they got 5.96 for FD), Reeds for fair SS - a little over 4 points (they got 6.79 for FD), I rewatched more Tobias & Stagniunas – I would go lower than I previously noted to fair SS - around 4 points (they got 6.79 for FD like Reeds). Then it would be OK, Coomes & Buckland with average SS around 5 points (they got 7.71 for FD). Chock & Bates thanks to Madison who improves a total expression to above average SS – around 6 points (they got 8.43 for FD which means very good SS, only one level below oustanding – I don't agree with it, even Madison herself is not skating for over 8’s and together with Evan, there is no way for such score…but if Penny and Nicholas get 7.71 points for SS, so it is logical that Madison and Evan go higher…but then to make a right distance from the best skilled couple like V&M, I&K, S&Z and B&S – where do you want to go?).

I realise that those low points which I would give are shocking for many people, but I really see no reason why to look like that a couple with above overage SS (looking at judges score) is skating and cutting the ice with their blades and making all those wild hip/back side/shoulder moves as an attempt to change an edge and totaly ignoring that there should be a knee action on it – if a skater think that a changement of an edge is a work of big shake of whole body – than such skater doesn’t deserve to be called overage skilled. But that is my way of view.

Of course if I would compare Shtork & Rand to Evan Bates, Evan would be a genius. But I compare him with top dancers – in Skating Skills Moir, Katsalapov, Zhiganshin, Soloviev, in more wide top – Bourzat, White, Poje, Tkachenko, Khaliavin, Bukin, Shibutani, Poirier, Donohue etc. – and for me in this moment he is one of the weakest partners as to Skating Skills if I compare him with those who I mentioned above….but as to lifts only he would rise into top 6 probably.

Comparing skating skills – compulsory dances where perfect for it. Not only if a couple is able to express the music, but also how great technicians are those dancers. They all had the same steps, they all needed to perform it twice, so they could be no word about making your edges by chance only. Also every couple had music in the same speed, so you could really compare who was able to make all those edges keeping the rhythm and feeling of the music. With short dance, all couples can hide their weaker technique using slower music, more cool songs, making the rest of the dance interesting….it all hides real skating skills. Did you imagine how many skaters used slower music for required steps for Polka, for example Zhiganshina & Gazsi? Why they did it? To be able to make all edges and catch all key points…but it shouldn’t look like that. How can you compare a couple who is skating to Polka fast music and not doing everything clean with a couple who has more clean edges but not respect the music rhythm for Polka and choose slower piece of music…who is better then?

 

[dorispulaski]

Yes, I get the idea that you would not place Evan at the same level as some other top dancers, but if you are going to use a scale radically different from what the judges use, you should perhaps list your scale at the top of the post, so that people don't get the idea that you think he is lower than Taavi Rand. For that matter, Taavi is closer to 6.0 than 5.0. To get to 5.0, you have to get down to Yurii Biealiev. So if you give Taavi a 2, then you have to give Yurii a 1 . And what then will you give novice dancers in Yurii' s home of Belarus, who are not as skilled as he is? Clearly, your scale does not work. You could make the point better by giving your more favored skaters a grade between 12 and 13.

And the point I was making about Evan's stability on one foot going backwards with nice leg line on a deeply curved edge while Madison moves their center of gravity all over the place was: it is his command of the blade and the edge I find impressive there, and those are components of skating skills, too. Scott Moir had to give up using a one foot pose on his first (straight line, going forward) lift in the FD, because he was a bit shaky on it. Nikita, as you have noted, is shaky on his edge while doing a one footed change of position straight line lift going forward. I suspect the only other dance guys that could do that backward curved lift with Madison are Charlie White (who did a similar lift in D&W' s 2009 Samson & Delilah FD) and just maybe Fabian Bourzat, but I would not bet on it. Maybe Scott could do the lift with Madison, but not with Tessa; it is hard to know. So Evan does have some top level skating skills with edges and stability, so I would not rule out improvement for him, even great improvement in areas where he needs improvement.

 

[sisinka]

sisinka, you can't gain forward speed across the ice by jumping or hopping. In fact if you look carefully, skaters build up speed to jump and then either maintain or lose speed in a series of jumps. The loss of speed is due to bad technique in the landing. A rough landing loses your forward momentum to friction, to throwing a shower of ice into the air. Watch any skater doing three hops or jumps in a row and you'll see they tend to lose speed or stay at approximately the same speed. You really cannot repeal the laws of physics to make an argument about ice dance.

http://www.real-world-physics-problems.com/physics-of-ice-skating.html

Newton' s Laws of physics work. Perpendicular components of motion are independent. The force you exert downward on the ice to jump propels you upward. The force you exert parallel to the ice increases your forward speed.

In the most simple to see example, you cannot make an object move forward by pushing it straight upward.

Independence of perpendicular components of force, velocity, and momentum
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/vectors/u3l1g.cfm
The physics of simple jumps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping

So why do dancers jump? Mostly, it is a device to emphasize the rhythm in a quick paced bit of music. The trick falls flat if the landings of the hops lose you forward speed. Leaps are used to reflect high points in the music.

A less defensible reason is to fill up time while getting from point A to point B with something other than crossovers. It's a time using device similar to static posing sections.

Totally. I never understood the argument that a hop, which is UP, is somehow going to increase your speed forward. And now I know why! I feel much smarter today.

And frankly I went back to look at programs. The little hops seem to be characteristic of both Marina's and Igor's choreography, and seem to be used not only for musical emphasis, but for small turns within a larger pattern. And it seems like ALL of their teams do it, to a greater or lesser extent.

Hops not only add excitement but they're also difficult and dangerous. It's hard enough to stand still on the ice in very hard skates... jumping on the ice is a difficult maneuver.

Wow, that is something, thanks Doris, I never came into physics so much like you right now. Thanks for this interesting post.

I don’t agree, I know that little jumps and hops are helping to increase a speed and are more easy than other steps. I will try to explain…

Newton’s Laws of physics work. But he was not thinking about the ice moves. But...it works on the ice as well…partly.

What are you talking about is a moment when:
- a skater makes two back crossovers and then skates on one leg backward…he just stays on that one leg and waits for a moment when he will stop moving…
- second skater makes two back crossovers and then skates on one leg backward for one second, then he makes a jump (only up, no change of direction) – he takes off and lands on the same leg…and then he tries to continue in skating on that one leg…
…in this situation the second skater looses speed and stops sooner than the first one, because the second skater looses energy to jump up while the first skater keeps all energy for skating backward only…YES.

You can see that Madison jumps into Evan’s arms during lifts – that is what are you talking about with Newton’s Laws – she puts main energy into getting up, not getting forward…and it is OK, she needs to get on Evan’s back, shoulder, arm etc.

But little jumps and hops we are talking about are somethink totally different.
You can see that after every jump made by Madison or Evan, in moment of the landing on one leg, they make a push from toe-pick of the second leg – that is increasing the speed. It it not one leg take off and the same leg landing like triple loop jump for example…there is another take off of the second leg to skate forward in moment of landing thatlittle jump or hop.

Madison and Evan have probably three different sort of jumps – a jump without a changement of direction, a jump with a changement of direction, and a jump where only Madison makes a jump and Evan holds her. All those jumps and hops are making a choreography and performance more easy and are increasing speed in moment when the second leg pushes forward from toe-pick…but it also fulfills a program, so they don’t need to do anything more difficult (and it gives a choreographer a change to rest – why to come with some difficult but still original step when he can come with another jump step). Especially I don’t like those little jumps with a changement of direction – because it means that you don’t need to make the changement of edge or the changement of direction keeping the same edge.

Everybody knows that a moment when most couples with poor or not good technique show their cards…it is a moment when they show their edge's work – no edges, decent edges, shaky edges, not clean changement of edges, not sureness in it, increasing spacing between a couple during turns not well done…and every jump with a changement of direction in the air (instead of changement an edge with blade on the ice) hides this skater’s ability or non ability.
As well as you may notice how fast are couples loosing speed during step sequences…why? Because they have poor work with blades – edges. If you don’t make a clean changement of edges on certain place on the blade – it makes you slower and shaky plus it doesn’t look good. If both skaters in a couple make not good changement of edges, not clean turns – suddenly they have no speed and they stop moving across the ice.

Overall, the more jumps you make, the less edge's work you need…so it hides how good technician you really are…because if you don’t try to change your edge or keep a good edge in a difficult turns more times during a program (brackets, rockets, counters etc.), than nobody can really know how good in those diffucult steps you are.

Take another look on situation…every little kid who is skating less than one year can execute little jump or hop which dancers are doing. But how many years it takes for a kid to learn a clean difficult turn – bracket, rocker, counter, choctaw, twizzle…and don't loose the speed in it.

These days every couple has some little jumps in their programs (not wisely it is also a recommendation like one of extra features, which I don’t think is OK), but try to realise who we connect with jumping issues most – Chock & Bates, Coomes & Buckland, Davis & White. Who have a small number of jumps – Virtue & Moir, Ilinykh & Katsalapov, Sinitsina & Zhiganshin, Bobrova & Soloviev (their Birds had more jumps, but it also had all turns and moves twice as much because of fast music and frenetic choreo). Which group of dancers mentioned above is connected with problematic technique and not clean edges? And come back to history…do you remeber Annissina, Krylova, Usova, Grishuk to jump so much? But do you remember Galit Chait and Tanith Belbin, Mauricio Margaglio, they had much more jumps in programs. And who had technique issues?
Or is there any other reason why great technicians of these days and past days were prefering clean deep edges, clean changement of edges…while skaters with problematic technique goes into direction of enormous number of jumps in programs? I am sorry to Davis & White, their technique is much better than both C&B, but I tend to think that all those jumps in their programs were the reason why was the couple able to keep with Virtue & Moir in speed and performance's execution.

So if I see a couple with small number of little jumps and hops I say YES and watch how is the couple able to deal with technique. But if I see a couple with numerous number of little jumps and hops, I think NO, you make your job more easy.
Overall we are talking about dancing – which means edges and gliding…where do you see edges and gliding with a skater in the air…then it is more pair cathegory than ice dance.

 

[emdee]

Wow, that is something, thanks Doris, I never came into physics so much like you right now. Thanks for this interesting post.

I don’t agree, I know that little jumps and hops are helping to increase a speed and are more easy than other steps. I will try to explain…

Newton’s Laws of physics work. But he was not thinking about the ice moves. But...it works on the ice as well…partly.

What are you talking about is a moment when:
- a skater makes two back crossovers and then skates on one leg backward…he just stays on that one leg and waits for a moment when he will stop moving…
- second skater makes two back crossovers and then skates on one leg backward for one second, then he makes a jump (only up, no change of direction) – he takes off and lands on the same leg…and then he tries to continue in skating on that one leg…
…in this situation the second skater looses speed and stops sooner than the first one, because the second skater looses energy to jump up while the first skater keeps all energy for skating backward only…YES.

You can see that Madison jumps into Evan’s arms during lifts – that is what are you talking about with Newton’s Laws – she puts main energy into getting up, not getting forward…and it is OK, she needs to get on Evan’s back, shoulder, arm etc.

But little jumps and hops we are talking about are somethink totally different.
You can see that after every jump made by Madison or Evan, in moment of the landing on one leg, they make a push from toe-pick of the second leg – that is increasing the speed. It it not one leg take off and the same leg landing like triple loop jump for example…there is another take off of the second leg to skate forward in moment of landing thatlittle jump or hop.

Madison and Evan have probably three different sort of jumps – a jump without a changement of direction, a jump with a changement of direction, and a jump where only Madison makes a jump and Evan holds her. All those jumps and hops are making a choreography and performance more easy and are increasing speed in moment when the second leg pushes forward from toe-pick…but it also fulfills a program, so they don’t need to do anything more difficult (and it gives a choreographer a change to rest – why to come with some difficult but still original step when he can come with another jump step). Especially I don’t like those little jumps with a changement of direction – because it means that you don’t need to make the changement of edge or the changement of direction keeping the same edge.

Everybody knows that a moment when most couples with poor or not good technique show their cards…it is a moment when they show their edge's work – no edges, decent edges, shaky edges, not clean changement of edges, not sureness in it, increasing spacing between a couple during turns not well done…and every jump with a changement of direction in the air (instead of changement an edge with blade on the ice) hides this skater’s ability or non ability.
As well as you may notice how fast are couples loosing speed during step sequences…why? Because they have poor work with blades – edges. If you don’t make a clean changement of edges on certain place on the blade – it makes you slower and shaky plus it doesn’t look good. If both skaters in a couple make not good changement of edges, not clean turns – suddenly they have no speed and they stop moving across the ice.

Overall, the more jumps you make, the less edge's work you need…so it hides how good technician you really are…because if you don’t try to change your edge or keep a good edge in a difficult turns more times during a program (brackets, rockets, counters etc.), than nobody can really know how good in those diffucult steps you are.

Take another look on situation…every little kid who is skating less than one year can execute little jump or hop which dancers are doing. But how many years it takes for a kid to learn a clean difficult turn – bracket, rocker, counter, choctaw, twizzle…and don't loose the speed in it.

These days every couple has some little jumps in their programs (not wisely it is also a recommendation like one of extra features, which I don’t think is OK), but try to realise who we connect with jumping issues most – Chock & Bates, Coomes & Buckland, Davis & White. Who have a small number of jumps – Virtue & Moir, Ilinykh & Katsalapov, Sinitsina & Zhiganshin, Bobrova & Soloviev (their Birds had more jumps, but it also had all turns and moves twice as much because of fast music and frenetic choreo). Which group of dancers mentioned above is connected with problematic technique and not clean edges? And come back to history…do you remeber Annissina, Krylova, Usova, Grishuk to jump so much? But do you remember Galit Chait and Tanith Belbin, Mauricio Margaglio, they had much more jumps in programs. And who had technique issues?
Or is there any other reason why great technicians of these days and past days were prefering clean deep edges, clean changement of edges…while skaters with problematic technique goes into direction of enormous number of jumps in programs? I am sorry to Davis & White, their technique is much better than both C&B, but I tend to think that all those jumps in their programs were the reason why was the couple able to keep with Virtue & Moir in speed and performance's execution.

So if I see a couple with small number of little jumps and hops I say YES and watch how is the couple able to deal with technique. But if I see a couple with numerous number of little jumps and hops, I think NO, you make your job more easy.
Overall we are talking about dancing – which means edges and gliding…where do you see edges and gliding with a skater in the air…then it is more pair cathegory than ice dance.

Sisinka you have made all the points that I have thought about and seldom expressed. Thank you.

 

[uncchristine99]

Whoa, crazy tight at the top! I didn't watch everyone so I can't really comment but I'm very happy for C/L! European Champs and World Champs this year... I hope they run with that momentum next year! I've been a fan for a long time but I didn't like either of their programs this year, which is a bit of shock. I was glad to see a snippet of their awesome rumba from a couple years ago in the exhibition, tee hee!

Also, valiant skate from P/B. They've never been my favorites but I do really, really like their free dance this year and wanted the sentimental win for them.

 

[Clover]

Btw, I've also seen threads (including on FSU) were some people have suggested that Asher Hill should drop Kharis Ralph. Some people think he's stronger than she is and that he should shop around for someone else. What surprises me about this is that I'd assume most skating observers would know there are only a handful of skaters in a country who can skate at the top of the Senior Dance level. You can't just find another partner the way you pick a loaf of bread off a shelf in a store.

Well, there's Vanessa Crone.......

 

[Blades of Passion]

Yay, we've reached the day when Ice Dance generates scientific discussion!

 

[Alba]

Yay, we've reached the day when Ice Dance generates scientific discussion!

Single skaters does, why not dance? Isn't the ISJ about absolute judging and precision?

 

[Snow63]

Wow, that is something, thanks Doris, I never came into physics so much like you right now. Thanks for this interesting post.

I don’t agree, I know that little jumps and hops are helping to increase a speed and are more easy than other steps. I will try to explain…

Newton’s Laws of physics work. But he was not thinking about the ice moves. But...it works on the ice as well…partly.

What are you talking about is a moment when:
- a skater makes two back crossovers and then skates on one leg backward…he just stays on that one leg and waits for a moment when he will stop moving…
- second skater makes two back crossovers and then skates on one leg backward for one second, then he makes a jump (only up, no change of direction) – he takes off and lands on the same leg…and then he tries to continue in skating on that one leg…
…in this situation the second skater looses speed and stops sooner than the first one, because the second skater looses energy to jump up while the first skater keeps all energy for skating backward only…YES.

You can see that Madison jumps into Evan’s arms during lifts – that is what are you talking about with Newton’s Laws – she puts main energy into getting up, not getting forward…and it is OK, she needs to get on Evan’s back, shoulder, arm etc.

But little jumps and hops we are talking about are somethink totally different.
You can see that after every jump made by Madison or Evan, in moment of the landing on one leg, they make a push from toe-pick of the second leg – that is increasing the speed. It it not one leg take off and the same leg landing like triple loop jump for example…there is another take off of the second leg to skate forward in moment of landing thatlittle jump or hop.

Madison and Evan have probably three different sort of jumps – a jump without a changement of direction, a jump with a changement of direction, and a jump where only Madison makes a jump and Evan holds her. All those jumps and hops are making a choreography and performance more easy and are increasing speed in moment when the second leg pushes forward from toe-pick…but it also fulfills a program, so they don’t need to do anything more difficult (and it gives a choreographer a change to rest – why to come with some difficult but still original step when he can come with another jump step). Especially I don’t like those little jumps with a changement of direction – because it means that you don’t need to make the changement of edge or the changement of direction keeping the same edge.

Everybody knows that a moment when most couples with poor or not good technique show their cards…it is a moment when they show their edge's work – no edges, decent edges, shaky edges, not clean changement of edges, not sureness in it, increasing spacing between a couple during turns not well done…and every jump with a changement of direction in the air (instead of changement an edge with blade on the ice) hides this skater’s ability or non ability.
As well as you may notice how fast are couples loosing speed during step sequences…why? Because they have poor work with blades – edges. If you don’t make a clean changement of edges on certain place on the blade – it makes you slower and shaky plus it doesn’t look good. If both skaters in a couple make not good changement of edges, not clean turns – suddenly they have no speed and they stop moving across the ice.

Overall, the more jumps you make, the less edge's work you need…so it hides how good technician you really are…because if you don’t try to change your edge or keep a good edge in a difficult turns more times during a program (brackets, rockets, counters etc.), than nobody can really know how good in those diffucult steps you are.

Take another look on situation…every little kid who is skating less than one year can execute little jump or hop which dancers are doing. But how many years it takes for a kid to learn a clean difficult turn – bracket, rocker, counter, choctaw, twizzle…and don't loose the speed in it.

These days every couple has some little jumps in their programs (not wisely it is also a recommendation like one of extra features, which I don’t think is OK), but try to realise who we connect with jumping issues most – Chock & Bates, Coomes & Buckland, Davis & White. Who have a small number of jumps – Virtue & Moir, Ilinykh & Katsalapov, Sinitsina & Zhiganshin, Bobrova & Soloviev (their Birds had more jumps, but it also had all turns and moves twice as much because of fast music and frenetic choreo). Which group of dancers mentioned above is connected with problematic technique and not clean edges? And come back to history…do you remeber Annissina, Krylova, Usova, Grishuk to jump so much? But do you remember Galit Chait and Tanith Belbin, Mauricio Margaglio, they had much more jumps in programs. And who had technique issues?
Or is there any other reason why great technicians of these days and past days were prefering clean deep edges, clean changement of edges…while skaters with problematic technique goes into direction of enormous number of jumps in programs? I am sorry to Davis & White, their technique is much better than both C&B, but I tend to think that all those jumps in their programs were the reason why was the couple able to keep with Virtue & Moir in speed and performance's execution.

So if I see a couple with small number of little jumps and hops I say YES and watch how is the couple able to deal with technique. But if I see a couple with numerous number of little jumps and hops, I think NO, you make your job more easy.
Overall we are talking about dancing – which means edges and gliding…where do you see edges and gliding with a skater in the air…then it is more pair cathegory than ice dance.

I love you.

 

[WeakAnkles]

I love you.

But it's not the hop itself then that is generating the speed; it's the corresponding push with the toe pick.

Physics is physics. Newton's laws, as far as I remember from my physics class, don't have exceptions that prove the rule.

 

[viennaskater]

i am so over generic programs where the only 'story' or emotion is 'omg look how melodramatically in love we are! look, we're gazing longingly at each other!' BORING.i would rather watch Summer and Autumn weaving in and out in a clever representation of nature, or a Pharoah bringing a mummy to life, or a modern dance version of a Charlie Chaplin film, or the story of the Little Prince and his Rose. I love how they turn ordinary things into the unexpected- like a cabaret themed Finnstep (Bourzat said in an interview that their SD was about a guy who goes to a brothel, dances with a prostitute and then gets kicked out. ) The level of thought and care they put into the storytelling and characters in their programs, making sure every detail is there to support it, is what sets them above the rest for me.

Vinganca, you have summed it up so well. I love to see a skate or couple 'tell a story' and dress accordingly. Similarly, I loved it when Javier Fernandez did "Pirates of the Caribbean" - playing a drunken pirate on the ice, it was brilliant! Like you, I think that P/B have worked so hard with their programmes and have not been credited enough for it. That Little Prince and his Rose has captivated me the entire season.

Well said!

 

[sisinka]

But it's not the hop itself then that is generating the speed; it's the corresponding push with the toe pick.

Physics is physics. Newton's laws, as far as I remember from my physics class, don't have exceptions that prove the rule.

Then we can start a discussion if a landing is a part of a jump (because a free leg pushes from toe pick in moment when a skater lands a little jump or a hop)…in single skating landings are a part of jumps.

But there is one another thing which I didn’t mention in previous post. Look at free leg during or right after take off, in many little jumps and hops the free leg is moving in a direction of skating or in next planned direction of skating. And the energy which a skater gets with move of free leg goes mainly forward or in next direction - so this energy of free leg‘s move transforms into energy which pushes you forward also.

Try to imagine that a skater’s free leg would be near to a knee of standing leg and a skater couldn’t move with this free leg until a moment of landing. Then next attempt but with a movement forward with his free leg during take off….in a second attempt a skater would get more speed with a help of the free leg….and this time, WeakAnkles, the free leg‘s move is certainly a part of the jump, no doubt about it.

All those little jumps and hops are done instead of something else. I can agree with some jumps in a program which really suits to the music, but too much is too much.
The little jump while skating forward…instead of it our skater could do nothing and just stay on one leg slowly loosing speed – that would be boring – no transitions…instead of it a skater could do a twizzles – so difficult not to loose speed…instead of it a skater could do…at least a choctaw – very simple but at least something…instead of it a skater could do a spread eagle or a shoot the duck…or bracket…or rocker…
I will take like an example of Hubbell & Donohue FD from US Nationals…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-DUFwVnWzo&feature=player_detailpage#t=159
…slow music starts…from this moment Zach does Ina Bauer with not fully extended left leg, then open mohawk, then both of them are doing probably a bracket – the opening edge is not visible, then Zach with Ina Bauer and both with three turns, then they are in Killian Hold doing a rockers, cross overs, Madison with three turns, later Zach with mohawk and then those arcs with Madison laying on Zach’s leg, then Zach with choctaw and Madison with mohawk…this section takes 26 seconds…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP3ik57bqCs&feature=player_detailpage#t=124
…Coomes & Buckland…slow music start…Penny does some difficult turn but opening edge is not visible thanks to the camera and final edge is no edge, then they both stay on one leg, then Penny hops to change a direction, they she makes spiral with almost no edge even while skating to the circle, then Penny does one twizzle while Nick is holding her hands (Nick‘s two-footed skating for few seconds), then Nick makes a three turn, Penny does something like mohawk, then Penny jumps, then Nick does three turns and Penny one turn and she is for a half second in shoot the duck, then she jumps to change a direction, then they both stay on one foot, then Nick helps Penny to jump to change her direction of skating to backward and then he helps her once again to jump to change her direction of skating once again, then Nick holds Penny and makes rotation while she is touching the ice with her toe pick, then Nick’s three turns, Penny’s choctaw…whole section takes 25 seconds…

Do you see the difference? There are so many steps which you can do instead of staying on one leg, instead of little jumping and hoping…how many times Platov made Penny’s work more easy giving her a chance to change a direction of skating with little jump, to increase a speed doing another jump…but this is not an ice dance, who else than dancers should be a masters of their edges – deep edges, clean changement of edges…all jumps sections have nothing to do with edge‘s work.

That is one of reasons (and I am probably the only one) why I am not enthusiastic about Platov working with top Russian couples. I already mentioned of Sphilband’s tendency to make a “jumping horse“ from Riazanova, and it was definitely not good idea (and the girl doesn’t need it, she is not the best technician, but she is good enought to work with edges properly). So I am not a fan of an idea with top Russian dancers coming to Platov because I don’t want to see them to got in direction of Platov’s C&B and creating “jumping rabbits“ from Russia. I think that Platov improved C&B skating, but he works with them for more years, so instead of constantly hiding their no edges ability, he could spend hours and hours teaching them edge’s work and difficult turns. Of course it would take longer time to learn something, because good edge’s work means a really hard work with results showing slowly, but I always expected that an Olympic Champion (and definitely a two-Time Olympic Champion) should be in a front row talking about good quality of skating and a needfulness of learning this for his students.