2015 Skate Canada Ice Dance Free Dance

[nocturnalis]

What politics are on their side? Is Shpilband better connected that Zueva thse days?







OK, you got me. What is clod t? (or is it something I don't want to know. )

Evil autocorrect + a phone keyboard I haven't entirely gotten used to. I meant closer together. They are skating farther apart so that they can appear faster, but it's dragging down some of skating skills scores.

 

[rain]

I was a WeaPo fan from the Je suis malade season and became an uber during the Maria de Buenos Aires season, but last season and this season their programmes just don't interest me...I feel like a bad fan now.

Somebody said that they are at their best when they do a story-based programme and I agree. Maria was the kind of inspired programme that wins Worlds.

See, that's so funny to me because I HATED Je Suis Malade (the song and the overwrought program). Became a fan with Maria de Buenos Aries, LOVED last season's FD (one of my favourite choreographies for any team, of all time) and really like this year's as well. I can understand why some may not like it though. It is a challenging piece of music and is a risk, but one I think worth taking. I love the lifts, the footwork, the transitions — the whole just moves me. I find there are a lot of unexpected moments in the choreo, which I really appreciate.

This and the Shibs' FD are my favourite of the season so far. Really enjoy G/P's choreography for the FD as well — they are not as great skaters as the aforementioned though, so that comes into play.

 

[bramweld]

I think there is a strong case to be made that the Shibs deserved to win this competition.

I also think, that if judged on the same ice, their SC performance would beat C/B's SA performance.

Again, I say this as someone who has not been a great fan of theirs over the past several years.

Credit where due: This is not simply an improvement over what they've done prior; they showed a completely different level.

In my opinion this is a case where a very well liked piece of music prevents the viewer from actually seeing what a team is doing. The Shibs have skills and that is what I see when I watch this dance. Do I experience an emotional connection to them when watching this dance, no. They have almost no real connection to each other in this dance neither to the music or at least not at the intensity it deserves. Maia is way too self-conscious and controlled to really skate with the abandon it deserves. She's still skating it as though it were another waltz. A dance like this needs the emotions and abandon that W/P brought to Je Suis Malade.

We all know that W/P start out a little rough technically then get way better during the course of the season. It remains to be seen if Maia and Alex can perform this piece as it should be. If W/P were skating to Fix You we would have already crowned them world champions. That's the edge they have over the Shibs and the judges know it. It has nothing to do with politics or this being Skate Canada, W/P won fair and square IMHO.

 

[Mrs. P]

In my opinion this is a case where a very well liked piece of music prevents the viewer from actually seeing what a team is doing. The Shibs have skills and that is what I see when I watch this dance. Do I experience an emotional connection to them when watching this dance, no. They have almost no real connection to each other in this dance neither to the music or at least not at the intensity it deserves. Maia is way too self-conscious and controlled to really skate with the abandon it deserves. She's still skating it as though it were another waltz. A dance like this needs the emotions and abandon that W/P brought to Je Suis Malade.

We all know that W/P start out a little rough technically then get way better during the course of the season. It remains to be seen if Maia and Alex can skate this song as it should be. Iif W/P were skating to Fix You we would have already crowned them world champions. That's the edge they have over the Shibs and the judges know it. It as nothing to do with politics or this being Skate Canada, W/P won fair and square IMHO.

Granted audience reaction isn't everything -- it's not a popularity contest after all -- but I really think that Maia and Alex did put themselves out there and the audience responded as such. Not to mention people on these boards. It's fine if you think differently of course, but I think if they lacked emotion, I think more people would have noted this.

And Alex cried at the end -- if that's not emotions, I don't know what is. Maia does not show her emotions as greatly as Alex does, but she too looked emotionally drained at the end as well.

 

[bramweld]

Granted audience reaction isn't everything -- it's not a popularity contest after all -- but I really think that Maia and Alex did put themselves out there and the audience responded as such. Not to mention people on these boards. It's fine if you think differently of course, but I think if they lacked emotion, I think more people would have noted this.

And Alex cried at the end -- if that's not emotions, I don't know what is. Maia does not show her emotions as greatly as Alex does, but she too looked emotionally drained at the end as well.

Maia and Alex have always been popular. Audiences would cheer just the same for them if the went out on the ice costumed in orange and black and purple pumpkins and rocked out to .....(Oh no that was B/S's gala from earlier today. I digress.) It just goes to show, one person's wow can be another's meh....

 

[Mrs. P]

Maia and Alex have always been popular. Audiences would cheer just the same for them if the went out on the ice costumed in orange and black and purple pumpkins and rocked out to .....(Oh no that was B/S's gala from earlier today. I digress.) It just goes to show, one person's wow can be another's meh....

Yes, they have always been popular, but the audience response to that FD was noteworthy, IMO. I mean it's not just "Yay Maia and Alex!" That's not what I'm talking about. They definitely were with them and the clapping got louder as the program continued. There clearly was a connection between that dance and the audience.

And for heaven's sake they got loud roaring for TWIZZLES.

 

[blue eyed birds]

Yes, they have always been popular, but the audience response to that FD was noteworthy, IMO. I mean it's not just "Yay Maia and Alex!" That's not what I'm talking about. They definitely were with them and the clapping got louder as the program continued. There clearly was a connection between that dance and the audience.

And for heaven's sake they got loud roaring for TWIZZLES.

The audience also noticeably clapped through their diagonal step sequence to a not terribly clap-happy section of music. I'm not going to get into which team deserved the win, but even watching from home it seemed to me that Maia and Alex really cast a spell. That's not the basis on which a sport should be judged, but it's a pretty cool and rare thing to see.

 

[Mrs. P]

The audience also noticeably clapped through their diagonal step sequence to a not terribly clap-happy section of music. I'm not going to get into which team deserved the win, but even watching from home it seemed to me that Maia and Alex really cast a spell. That's not the basis on which a sport should be judged, but it's a pretty cool and rare thing to see.

Yes, sometimes that the winner of the competition and the winner for the audience isn't the same. And that's fine.

As I said earlier, I don't think they have fully arrived with this dance by any means, but I think this was a very good step forward.

 

[Barb]

Maia and Alex have always been popular. Audiences would cheer just the same for them if the went out on the ice costumed in orange and black and purple pumpkins and rocked out to .....(Oh no that was B/S's gala from earlier today. I digress.) It just goes to show, one person's wow can be another's meh....

I think it is very unfair. In first place it is not true, they don´t get always that kind of reaction. I know you are fan of I/Z and they are a really popular team, so, I guess when they get a ovation is just because they are popular, not because their skating?

 

[bramweld]

I think it is very unfair. In first place it is not true, they don´t get always that kind of reaction. I know you are fan of I/Z and they are a really popular team, so, I guess when they get a ovation is just because they are popular, not because their skating?

LOL, they get it for both, they all ultimately do, and that doesn't always compute to them winning. Case in point COR 2014. Besides which where is it written that tastes cannot differ on GS? Come on it's only a different point of view , and an unpopular one at that eace:

 

[rvi5]

I was a WeaPo fan from the Je suis malade season and became an uber during the Maria de Buenos Aires season, but last season and this season their programmes just don't interest me...I feel like a bad fan now.

See, that's so funny to me because I HATED Je Suis Malade (the song and the overwrought program). Became a fan with Maria de Buenos Aries, LOVED last season's FD (one of my favourite choreographies for any team, of all time) and really like this year's as well.

Examples why "sports" should not be judged based on subjective opinions. For every person who says they like a program, music, costume, etc., there will be another who has the opposite view. From my observations on these discussion boards, often fan opinions are based more on the subjective "entertainment" value rather than the "sport". We are all entitled to our opinions on what we like/dislike. However if the judges are doing their jobs correctly, they should not let the "entertainment" aspect exceed the "sport". Lest more people point a crooked finger and say... 'that is not a sport'. Unfortunately to the dismay of fans, at times there could be situations where a skater(s) do not win despite having a very popular entertaining program. However IMO, good skating skills in accordance with the rules must be first and foremost. The rest is the tie breaker. Otherwise, we should leave out the word "skating" from the name. Actually with "figures" eliminated, the sport would be called " ".

 

[KKonas]

Examples why "sports" should not be judged based on subjective opinions. For every person who says they like a program, music, costume, etc., there will be another who has the opposite view. From my observations on these discussion boards, often fan opinions are based more on the subjective "entertainment" value rather than the "sport". We are all entitled to our opinions on what we like/dislike. However if the judges are doing their jobs correctly, they should not let the "entertainment" aspect exceed the "sport". Lest more people point a crooked finger and say... 'that is not a sport'. Unfortunately to the dismay of fans, at times there could be situations where a skater(s) do not win despite having a very popular entertaining program. However IMO, good skating skills in accordance with the rules must be first and foremost. The rest is the tie breaker. Otherwise, we should leave out the word "skating" from the name. Actually with "figures" eliminated, the sport would be called " ".

Judges are people too, with emotional reactions to music, choreo and interpretation and certainly music, choreo and interpretation are part of the PCS score, but what happens is that unfortunately reputation often factors in the judging process and judges don't like to be out of the "general consensus" of opinion of a team/skater's records.

 

[Tallorder]

Agree with KKonas' points regarding the psychological and historical reputation based factors which clearly influence the judges. The reputation base especially so obviously has some skaters "coming in starting from a PCS of 8.0 .... or 9.0 ..." and then the deviation is from that quasi-base value.

However, it is truly buzz-worthy and extraordinarily well-received programs and performances such as the ones delivered in both the SD and FD by the Shibutani's, that become sentiment changing events.

 

[BlackPack]

Exactly! This is what I meant when I said they had better programs when they were clawing their way to the podium. Those programs are so much better than last year's program, and they dwarf what they did at SC.

Yes... now that they have something to lose, they did warhorses last year - lost. Now they're doing something Muse-like (combining rock with classical)... not really working.

I think their earlier work was technically easier, but artistically I loved it. They had a "yuppie nouveau romance" vibe. I can really see them acting out a modern-day yuppie couple's love troubles. Now, I'm not sure what they're doing.

Krylova, please don't go the Linichuk road and do weird. Please don't ruin this team.

Is there an "ice dancing" doctor? All the top ice dancing coaches have been criticized for being predictable or technically deficient.

Bobrova and Soloviev, why only 2 sets of twizzles? You can get away with 2 sets if you're Davis and White. Once again Zhulin hit gold with Man with a Harmonica and has been fumbling around with this team for a while. The lifts are recycled material and there were many empty moments in their Anna Karenina program.

But it will be interesting to see as these programs mature. I still miss all the skaters who retired in 2014.

 

[juliajk]

First of all I'm grateful to WP for reminder that Ice Dance is a sport, not a popularity/beauty contest, and I appreciate their dedication to bring out the most difficult and intricate piece, rather than another crowd pleaser, even though that strategy didn't get them their deserved World's title last year.
I really enjoy their FD, even though it's still a work in progress, and it's still not as polished, but maybe it's a good thing, and they would be able to peak later in the season. I get that not everybody would like such a piece, but I find it incredibly emotional.
The other thing that I really enjoy about this FD, is how graphics it is, I love the lines, all the little details, and it's very consistent, there are no empty spaces in the dance. it's probably the richest choreography from everything I've seen so far this season.
I really enjoyed Shibutanis FD as well, probably the first time ever they have a really good piece that works for them, and it's quite more likable than WP's FD, but it lacks the consistency.and difficulty WP had. They looked more polished than WP, but overall the end result was fair. I really hope that Shibs will remain consistent, it's one problem they're always struggle with, and they might have a great shot at nationals, and possibly worlds.

 

[dcr]

First of all I'm grateful to WP for reminder that Ice Dance is a sport, not a popularity/beauty contest, and I appreciate their dedication to bring out the most difficult and intricate piece, rather than another crowd pleaser, even though that strategy didn't get them their deserved World's title last year.
I really enjoy their FD, even though it's still a work in progress, and it's still not as polished, but maybe it's a good thing, and they would be able to peak later in the season. I get that not everybody would like such a piece, but I find it incredibly emotional.
The other thing that I really enjoy about this FD, is how graphics it is, I love the lines, all the little details, and it's very consistent, there are no empty spaces in the dance. it's probably the richest choreography from everything I've seen so far this season.
I really enjoyed Shibutanis FD as well, probably the first time ever they have a really good piece that works for them, and it's quite more likable than WP's FD, but it lacks the consistency.and difficulty WP had. They looked more polished than WP, but overall the end result was fair. I really hope that Shibs will remain consistent, it's one problem they're always struggle with, and they might have a great shot at nationals, and possibly worlds.

You hit the nail on the head. Sometimes we as an audience are taken in by the music selection but when you really analyze the dance without the music it makes so much of a difference. W&P have a more difficult programme with no empty spaces as juliajk notes. But S&S have beautiful technically strong individual elements. I think this is free is a big step for them to winning Nationals.

 

[Alex D]

I do not agree that Figure Skating is just a sport, tennis is or football, but in FS you need more than just the toughest elements. You could be the best jumper in the world, if your programs don´t have heart and are empty, you win nothing - or should I say, shouldn't?

If we look at the PC´s, then we see things like interpretation, composition ... It´s not just doing some random elements, it all has to be in line with the music, you need to tell a story and feel what you skate, stay in character...

That the outcome is a very subjective thing is understandable, the judges but also fans are human and they do have feelings and emotions as well. You will find as many people saying Tessa & Scott should had won, as you will find that say Meryl and Charlie should in regards of Sochi. This won´t change and I guess you can see the same at US nationals or Skate Canada.

What we all saw is that Maia & Alex had the highest technical scores, but they lost in PC´s so I guess the judges just didn't like their interpretation & co. that well, which is a subjective judgment, but cost them a lot of points.

 

[rain]

What we all saw is that Maia & Alex had the highest technical scores, but they lost in PC´s so I guess the judges just didn't like their interpretation & co. that well, which is a subjective judgment, but cost them a lot of points.

I agree with your full point, but I've seen this bandied about a number of times in this thread and I think there's an important qualifier: Yes, the Shibs scored the highest TES, but it was by a miniscule margin. Their TES was 51.48 to W/P's 51.28. So really, this was a dead heat technically. I've seen others in this thread talk as if there was a huge gap and W/P won purely on PCS elevated artificially by the judges so that they would do so, when massively technically inferior, which is just not true.

Again, this isn't really aimed at you or your post, but more at the thread.

 

[rvi5]

Let me play devils advocate for a moment...

...in FS you need more than just the toughest elements.

Why?

...if your programs don´t have heart and are empty, you win nothing - or should I say, shouldn't?

Aren't these characteristics more related to the performing arts than sport?


Now let me provide my answer... Figure Skating in it's purest sports form is not sufficiently interesting. Public interest would drastically decline further, and the ISU would be struggling to survive. To boost public interest, FS appears to have turned towards becoming an entertainment show (especially in ice dance). However, that would result in more people declaring FS is not a sport. But who cares whether it is classified as a sport or not? Ballet does OK not being a sport. However if the IOC takes notice, FS could be evicted from the Olympics. Something the ISU, skaters, and FS fans do not want. Hence the ISU must strike a balance between keeping the entertainment oriented fans and sports oriented IOC happy.

Music, performance, etc. are highly subjective . The ISU attempts to quantify these characteristics in the scoring, but from a timing, interpretation, etc. analytic point of view. Whether the music choice is Country Western, Classical, Hard Rock, Rap, Punk, etc. should theoretically not matter to the judges, providing the analytical scoring requirements are met. Some fans don't seem to take this distinction into account, and may base their opinions regarding winners/losers on their personal likes/dislikes. The skater(s) who make the fan "feel" something and keeps them personally interested should win. But what about fans with the opposite opinion? They are wrong, and only your opinion is correct?

Should subjective characteristics be judged in a sport? No!

But is there a choice? Considering the likely negative alternative, unfortunately No! But try to keep it analytical, not emotional. Hopefully that is how the judges do it. Unfortunately that may not always be the case, or it may not produce the results we prefer.

 

[icekiwi]

I cannot comment on W&P's FD yet. So far I have fallen asleep while attempting to watch it twice. Maybe third time's the charm.

At the worst case, I now know how to solve my insomnia issues. :hopelessness:

This, btw, is the absolute truth. Fell asleep. Twice.

I think there is a tenable case that it bored me.

That was exactly what happenned to me too! Ha! Ha! My eyes just drifted away and I started looking at other things around my room. I have to literally force myself to watch the entire dance so as to make a personal opinion for the thread. Weaver/Poje's dance was that boring and lifeless.