2015 World Team Trophy Mens FS Apr 17

[slider11]

I do think this program has potential for Max. But the first part he totally lacks expression. I don't need arm waving and molting swan movements but frankly he could have been skating to anything at the beginning- who could tell? Finally at the end, the step sequence started to relate to the music. If Max can work on the artistry along with the jumps this might be a good program. I absolutely loved Jason. He has the expression down perfectly to that LP. I frankly think his artistry surpassed Hanyu.

 

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I also loved how other countries came over to cheer for Jason when he got off the ice and there was a sparse crowd in the USA box. Good for them! I hope the US team mates can return the favor. I love the idea of us all being global citizens enjoying fabulous skating!

 

[Mrs. P]

I do think this program has potential for Max. But the first part he totally lacks expression. I don't need arm waving and molting swan movements but frankly he could have been skating to anything at the beginning- who could tell? Finally at the end, the step sequence started to relate to the music. If Max can work on the artistry along with the jumps this might be a good program. I absolutely loved Jason. He has the expression down perfectly to that LP. I frankly think his artistry surpassed Hanyu.

Oooohhh devil's advocate statement.

I still think Yuzuru's artistry is actually still a work in progress. I think in the past, he was driven more by raw passion and fire (see R&J v. 2012 or his Parisanne Walkways SP from the last two seasons.) I think it was really smart of Orser to have him do more classical programs that required more refinement and to work on his lines, while still retaining some of the passion & fire that makes him special.

I feel with both programs at WTT, us fans (lucky us!) got to see the fruit of all his hard work.

Also that whole, they have different styles, apples and oranges, blah blah blah....I hope those two will compete against each other sooner in the season (i.e. GP), it will be really interesting how their respective styles compare.

 

[Sandpiper]

Of course it's fine saying that they wish Jason tried quads. Or they don't like that he beat skaters who tried quads The issue was the poster made Jason's "riskless" strategy of not putting in a quad as some sort of reflection of a "U.S. Mentality." The poster later clarified it was in reference to the U.S. men figure skaters, not a nation as a whole.

Still, even with that statement, that's a broad stroke especially considering Adam's 4 Lz attempts and Max having put as many as 3 quads in a FS at one time.

I wouldn't say it's a "US mentality," per se... but it does seem to be a "US ability/value" (Is this racist now? ) The top US skaters--at present--are in general less quad-happy and quad-successful than their European competitors. However, they are more adept at transitions, skating skills, spins, and to some degree consistency.

Just compare this year's US Nationals, where the champion attempted no quads, and the second-place finisher got < and << on quad lutzes (making him the most ambitious person... but sadly his success rate is 0, worse than even the inconsistent European skaters). The third-place finisher did one quad with a turn-out. The fourth-place finisher stands out in the US field for attempting multiple quads with some rate of success, but he'd be a dime a dozen a Europeans. Meanwhile, at Europeans, skaters 1-4 all attempted 2 or 3 quads in the LP. It was an atrocious event and few of the attempts were successful, but they went for it. Why? I suspect because, to them, the crazy quads and crazy ambitions were more important than clean programs.

Not saying which is better, especially since Europeans was unusually bad this year and we shouldn't judge them by that night. But it seems like there is a difference in values and abilities. Broad strokes, of course. Lots of exceptions like Voronov being a better spinner than Max Aaron, ect.

Of course, in the past the US has had technically daring men (Boitano, Goebel) alongside more conservative men (Eldredge, Lysacek).

I do understand the annoyance, because I always objected to the idea that "all Russian/Chinese/<insert country> skaters aren't artistic" ect. But artistry is a subjective thing, whereas quads aren't.

Look at the poster.

I'm not talking about Gmyers. I'm talking about Catlau, who TMC originally responded to. That post sounded more like personal preference than anything else.

 

[Sandpiper]

I didn't forget about goebel or mroz silver but even Canada produced stojko so there's obvious exceptions to everything!

...How is Stojko an exception? Canada has always been a leader in technical ambition: Brian "Triple Axel" Orser (who clobbered Scott Hamilton in the short and free but couldn't win gold 'cause he sucked at figures), Kurt Browning (y'know, the guy who actually landed the first quad), even Patrick Chan post 2010 by performing 2-quad LPs. And as far as I know, our media does not treat Stojko as an incomplete skater who could just jump--he is seen as one of our legends, and rightfully so.

I'd say the sometimes-planned-quad-fall, sometimes-didn't-do-one-at-all Jeffrey Buttle was the exception.

...okay, after seeing this, I understand why our American friends are upset.

 

[xibsuarz]

Also that whole, they have different styles, apples and oranges, blah blah blah....I hope those two will compete against each other sooner in the season (i.e. GP), it will be really interesting how their respective styles compare.

Random question that is absolutely off topic but it popped up with Yuzuru and Jason competing again. I know how the GP thing works for the top 3 at Worlds (Javier chooses, Yuzuru chooses from the other 4, Denis has what's left), but does Jason get to choose as well?

 

[MaxSwagg]

I do think this program has potential for Max. But the first part he totally lacks expression. I don't need arm waving and molting swan movements but frankly he could have been skating to anything at the beginning- who could tell? Finally at the end, the step sequence started to relate to the music. If Max can work on the artistry along with the jumps this might be a good program. I absolutely loved Jason. He has the expression down perfectly to that LP. I frankly think his artistry surpassed Hanyu.

Huge Yuzu fan/eh Jason fan here, but I have to say in this case I think I like Jason's free skate better. How he performed it here, the choreo/interpretation components should be at least equal to Yuzu, and he should be getting a little higher transition scores. I won't say he's surpassed him, per se, because Yuzu's short program is just sublime (even with the mistake) but Jason's long program when skated like this is absolutely great.

 

[Mrs. P]

I wouldn't say it's a "US mentality," per se... but it does seem to be a "US ability/value" (Is this racist now? ) The top US skaters--at present--are in general less quad-happy and quad-successful than their European competitors. However, they are more adept at transitions, skating skills, spins, and to some degree consistency.

Just compare this year's US Nationals, where the champion attempted no quads, and the second-place finisher got < and << on quad lutzes (making him the most ambitious person... but sadly his success rate is 0, worse than even the inconsistent European skaters). The third-place finisher did one quad with a turn-out. The fourth-place finisher stands out in the US field for attempting multiple quads with some rate of success, but he'd be a dime a dozen a Europeans. Meanwhile, at Europeans, skaters 1-4 all attempted 2 or 3 quads in the LP. It was an atrocious event and few of the attempts were successful, but they went for it. Why? I suspect because, to them, the crazy quads and crazy ambitions were more important than clean programs.

Not saying which is better, especially since Europeans was unusually bad this year and we shouldn't judge them by that night. But it seems like there is a difference in values and abilities. Broad strokes, of course. Lots of exceptions like Voronov being a better spinner than Max Aaron, ect.

Of course, in the past the US has had technically daring men (Boitano, Goebel) alongside more conservative men (Eldredge, Lysacek).

I do understand the annoyance, because I always objected to the idea that "all Russian/Chinese/<insert country> skaters aren't artistic" ect. But artistry is a subjective thing, whereas quads aren't.

No one is accusing anyone of being racist! Honestly, this is probably a good reminder of the global nature of this forum and how misunderstandings can easily happen.

Again, I find it a bit presumptuous that anyone would think Jason (or any U.S. skater) represents some sort of collective/homogeneous mentality.

Not every U.S. skater is adopting Jason's strategy to competition. And failure to attempt quads (or mistakes) certainly doesn't make them attendees of the Jason Brown school of competition strategy, it simply means they weren't successful. Will Max Aaron, et al, suddenly stop doing quads to be successful at Nationals? No.

Also that's the other thing. The U.S. field is not homogeneous either and hasn't been and our national champs include those who did quads and those who did not.

Random question that is absolutely off topic but it popped up with Yuzuru and Jason competing again. I know how the GP thing works for the top 3 at Worlds (Javier chooses, Yuzuru chooses from the other 4, Denis has what's left), but does Jason get to choose as well?

I believe 4-6 seeds don't get to choose. Basically Jason, Nam and Misha won't be competing against each other during the GP. Each host nation, once the 1-3 picks are done,will have to pick from the 4-6 pool.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

A skater gets 8 jumping passes. Kovtun throws 3 or 4 away. Jason throws none away. Jason does harder spins and steps. He gets choreo and does programs. Kovtun could never beat brown. He throws too much away. FUSPs? 2axels and salchow triple? Not ever going to happen where kovtun beats brown now.

Explain how Kovtun "throws stuff away". As for not beating Brown, he beat Brown at Worlds just last year.

Also, you really need to get over the FUSp as "throwing stuff away". It is actually a better assertion to say a skater throws away points by doing a -2T-2T 3-jump combo instead of a -2L-2L 3-jump combo than saying a skater is throwing away points with a FUSp. Also, if Brown beats Kovtun, it's not because Brown is a much better skater (though that's part of it), it's because Kovtun is inconsistent.

Kovtun's score at TEB of 243 points is higher than any of Brown's GP events. There's a reason Kovtun went to the GPF instead of Brown and part of that is due to the fact that Kovtun is WAY more ambitious in his technical content.

 

[Mrs. P]

Explain how Kovtun "throws stuff away". As for not beating Brown, he beat Brown at Worlds just last year.

Jason wasn't at Worlds last year.

Jason and Maxim have only competed against each other exactly four times. Two times in juniors. JGPF 2011-2012 (Jason, 1st; Maxim 4th); JGPF 2012-2013 (Maxim, 1st; Jason 4th); Worlds 2015 (Jason, 4th; Maxim 8th) and now WTT (Jason, 2nd; Maxim 6th). So 3-1, Jason.

And actually if you want to be technical, the actual reason Jason did not go to GPF is because Yuzuru Hanyu managed to beat Jeremy Abbott at NHK by a mere .15 points. Had Jeremy beat Yuzuru, Jason would have gone to GPF instead.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It's sort of like Yuzuru's 3Z-3T in the SP this season. Obviously he can do that jumping pass with his eyes closed, but for whatever reason (mental lapse, injury, something else) he missed it in every international competition (can't remember if he did it at nationals) this season except for Worlds.

My hope is that the new entrance will stick and that we'll see some more consistency with the jump next season. And of course Yuzuru doesn't mess up on what has otherwise been a lovely 3Z-3T jumping pass in past seasons.

I've been constantly saying Hanyu needs to work on his lutz as it's undoubtedly his weakest triple. More often than not he's off axis, and the 3T he gets off of it is always tight and rarely has flow coming off of it because of how he lands the lutz. Like, it's not a shock anymore if he messes up his combo, and I wish he'd consider a combo like 3F+3T now that his lip has been pretty much sorted out.

 

[caitie]

Huge Yuzu fan/eh Jason fan here, but I have to say in this case I think I like Jason's free skate better. How he performed it here, the choreo/interpretation components should be at least equal to Yuzu, and he should be getting a little higher transition scores. I won't say he's surpassed him, per se, because Yuzu's short program is just sublime (even with the mistake) but Jason's long program when skated like this is absolutely great.

Yeah, I agree with this. I think Yuzu is a good performer and artist, but it's really his SP that shows that... and it was the same way last season. I don't think R&J or Phantom are bad programs by any means, but they don't have the magic that his Parisian Walkways or Chopin SP have, and he didn't bring nearly the amount of performance or interpretation value to either. In Chopin he is elegant, and there is a confidence and a clarity of movement there that I just don't see with R&J. I remember someone theorized (maybe it was at FSU though...) that his team goes all out for high PCS in the short and then hopes it will carry over the long where he mostly focuses on the elements. Maybe that's what it is, lol.

Re: The quad and it's value in the US, I think the US still puts a lot of worth on skating clean. It's a little old-fashioned since there's less reward for clean programs in COP.

 

[Mrs. P]

Re: The quad and it's value in the US, I think the US still puts a lot of worth on skating clean. It's a little old-fashioned since there's less reward for clean programs in COP.

I think that applies regardless of whether the skate has a quad or not. Basically, I remember some of this board was up in arms that Max won Nationals in 2013 because he basically got high PCS (or higher than people thought he should have received) marks for a clean program with a quad. Same with Ryan Bradley in the 2011 Nationals SP. Everyone was wailing about how it was a shame that we had champions who lacked artistry/transitions/skating skills etc.

Like anything else, there's a cycle of opinion. Now we're lamenting about how our U.S. Champion won without quads.

I think whether a skater's strategy is successful can vary greatly from competition to competition. Perhaps a clean Jason we saw today wouldn't have placed so well at a competition like 4CC where many of the guys successfully did quads. But it would have been fine at Europeans where the guys weren't as clean.

 

[LRK]

I think that applies regardless of whether the skate has a quad or not. Basically, I remember some of this board was up in arms that Max won Nationals in 2013 because he basically got high PCS (or higher than people thought he should have received) marks for a clean program with a quad. Same with Ryan Bradley in the 2011 Nationals SP. Everyone was wailing about how it was a shame that we had champions who lacked artistry/transitions/skating skills etc.

Like anything else, there's a cycle of opinion. Now we're lamenting about how our U.S. Champion won without quads.

I think whether a skater's strategy is successful can vary greatly from competition to competition. Perhaps a clean Jason we saw today wouldn't have placed so well at a competition like 4CC where many of the guys successfully did quads. But it would have been fine at Europeans where the guys weren't as clean.

I was just reminded of when Kevin won 4CC... That thread should have been draped in black gauze to suit the lamentation and mourning over the Death of Figure Skating as we know and (they) love it....

(Nothing to do with US men, obviously, it just came to mind... )

 

[gmyers]

Explain how Kovtun "throws stuff away". As for not beating Brown, he beat Brown at Worlds just last year.

Also, you really need to get over the FUSp as "throwing stuff away". It is actually a better assertion to say a skater throws away points by doing a -2T-2T 3-jump combo instead of a -2L-2L 3-jump combo than saying a skater is throwing away points with a FUSp. Also, if Brown beats Kovtun, it's not because Brown is a much better skater (though that's part of it), it's because Kovtun is inconsistent.

Kovtun's score at TEB of 243 points is higher than any of Brown's GP events. There's a reason Kovtun went to the GPF instead of Brown and part of that is due to the fact that Kovtun is WAY more ambitious in his technical content.

It's the same thing. Doing two double toe jumps vs doing two double loops and doing fusp vs fccsp. Better options abound and they should be done

 

[Sandpiper]

I've been constantly saying Hanyu needs to work on his lutz as it's undoubtedly his weakest triple. More often than not he's off axis, and the 3T he gets off of it is always tight and rarely has flow coming off of it because of how he lands the lutz. Like, it's not a shock anymore if he messes up his combo, and I wish he'd consider a combo like 3F+3T now that his lip has been pretty much sorted out.

I dunno... I'd recommend 4T-3T and a solo 3Lz (which would likely be landed, just not very well). He can land a solo flip, but if he has to worry about tagging the combo on the end, it could become as problematic as his lutz-toe.

Of course, this is contingent on him having a good, consistent 4T-3T that can equal his current GOEs.

 

[cheerknithanson]

I was just reminded of when Kevin won 4CC... That thread should have been draped in black gauze to suit the lamentation and mourning over the Death of Figure Skating as we know and (they) love it....

(Nothing to do with US men, obviously, it just came to mind... )

Are you speaking of him negatively?!

 

[jenaj]

Of course, but then call it what it is: "I don't like the Jason Brown team's mentality of not going for quads" instead of saying "it's the US mentality".

Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine when I see an entire people painted with the same brush.

It's not even true: Sam Auxier said in an interview that they're putting extra money into developing those quads. That doesn't sound like frowning upon quads to me.

And why does the poster think the US named Max to the team instead of Josh or Adam? Because he has a quad!

 

[LRK]

Are you speaking of him negatively?!

No, I'm not. People in that particular 4CC thread were, however. As you know, I really like Kevin - I was happy for his success. But there was a lot of "oh, that's all that matters now - quads! The Art of Figure Skating is now dead!" etc going on. You should be glad you missed it.

 

[burntBREAD]

Explain how Kovtun "throws stuff away". As for not beating Brown, he beat Brown at Worlds just last year.

Also, you really need to get over the FUSp as "throwing stuff away". It is actually a better assertion to say a skater throws away points by doing a -2T-2T 3-jump combo instead of a -2L-2L 3-jump combo than saying a skater is throwing away points with a FUSp. Also, if Brown beats Kovtun, it's not because Brown is a much better skater (though that's part of it), it's because Kovtun is inconsistent.

Kovtun's score at TEB of 243 points is higher than any of Brown's GP events. There's a reason Kovtun went to the GPF instead of Brown and part of that is due to the fact that Kovtun is WAY more ambitious in his technical content.

The thing that confuses me about Kovtun is his layout -- he repeats the 4S, great. But then the other jump he decides to repeat is... the 3S? So basically, he attempts two 4S and one 4T, which is VERY technically ambitious, but then he attempts one 3A, one 3Lz, no 3F (I'm assuming he lips so understandable), no 3Lo, two 3S, one 3T, and then 2 2As. Is he not capable of doing the loop? The fact that he can do two kinds of quads but still does two double axels and not attempting two of the five triples does "throw away" some points, indeed.